Retaking low 30s

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orangeman25

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Is this common? I just read a thread on here of a medical student posting about how many of his friends at ucsf retook MCATs of 30-34 to get 37+ scores. Is it a rare sight to see such increases? My MCAT is in the 30-34 range and I'm not contemplating retaking but just hearing about this got me thinking....SDN is filled with so many ballers
 
What's your GPA? What sorts of schools are you planning to apply to?

And 30-34 is kind of a big range. 30 is average-to-weak for MD while 34 is solidly above average most places. If you have a 3.5 GPA and weak ECs, you might want to retake if you have a 30 and are confident you can improve a few points. If you have a 3.9 GPA and excellent ECs, there's no point.
 
Is it a rare sight? Check out AAMC's stats tables here: https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/admissionsadvisors/mcat_stats/ Basically, people whose original score was in the 30-32 range have about a 65% chance of increasing their score with a retake; if the original score was 33-35, it goes down to just above 50%. For people who do increase their score, the typical increase is 1-3 points; the odds of someone increasing their score from 30-34 to 37+ are about 15%.

If someone says that "many" of their friends with scores above 30 retook and added 3+ points to their score, either their friends are disproportionately lucky on the MCAT, or they are lying about their MCAT scores.
 
It really depends on how things are going on diags.

If I was nailing 34+ on my last 3-4 diags and I got a 31, then I might retake. If I was within 2 points of my AAMC average, then I wouldn't.
 
What's your GPA? What sorts of schools are you planning to apply to?

And 30-34 is kind of a big range. 30 is average-to-weak for MD while 34 is solidly above average most places. If you have a 3.5 GPA and weak ECs, you might want to retake if you have a 30 and are confident you can improve a few points. If you have a 3.9 GPA and excellent ECs, there's no point.

I have a decent GPA, around the matriculant average. Probably will apply broadly though. Yeah I didn't realize 30-34 is such a broad range, that's true. But it's a matter of a few points so it doesn't even seem like it. Couple points here and there and bam, your 32 becomes a 34.
 
If you scored a 33, but were averaging 39-40's on your practice tests and wanted to shoot high, ya I would retake it.
 
Is it a rare sight? Check out AAMC's stats tables here: https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/admissionsadvisors/mcat_stats/ Basically, people whose original score was in the 30-32 range have about a 65% chance of increasing their score with a retake; if the original score was 33-35, it goes down to just above 50%. For people who do increase their score, the typical increase is 1-3 points; the odds of someone increasing their score from 30-34 to 37+ are about 15%.

If someone says that "many" of their friends with scores above 30 retook and added 3+ points to their score, either their friends are disproportionately lucky on the MCAT, or they are lying about their MCAT scores.

See those statistics make me feel like the majority of people retaking scores between 30-35 are successful. Which is why I don't realize the overwhelming consensus to not retake scores above a 30.

I mean, I'm not going to retake my score but that's because I think it would take way too much time and energy to break a 35. But seems like the majority of people that do retake are successful.
 
I disagree - I've seen many people retake and do worse.

Yeah, but according to AAMC 65% of people that retake a 30-32 do better and over 50% of people that retake 33-35 do better (see post from above).

You may know many people that do worse on the second go but it seems like it ends up working out the majority of the time.
 
See those statistics make me feel like the majority of people retaking scores between 30-35 are successful. Which is why I don't realize the overwhelming consensus to not retake scores above a 30.

Because the most likely outcome is gaining 1 point. Why go through all the time and effort of a retake just to bring a 31 up to a 32?
 
Head of admissions at USC told me she wouldnt even consider an applicant who retook >31 no matter what they got
 
That seems... dubious at best.

I told her I was thinking about retaking my 34 since my AAMC tests were 3-4 points above that and i didnt get sleep before my exam. She said even if I retook and did much better she wouldnt offer me an interview because it looks arrogant to retake a good score. She said dont retake a 30, unless your from Cali, then dont retake a 31
 
I was thinking of retaking a 35 because I was confident I could get a 40 if I actually studied for it. I don't mean that as a brag, I'm just good at tests. Now I'm glad I didn't.
 
I was thinking of retaking a 35 because I was confident I could get a 40 if I actually studied for it. I don't mean that as a brag, I'm just good at tests. Now I'm glad I didn't.

HELL No

lol, I wanted to retake my 34 with a 9 in verbal and I was met with Universal "NO's"

Your essentially retaking a 95% MCAT to get a 99% MCAT lol
 
Yea I got a 32. (PS 12/ VR 9/ BS 11). I am pretty bummed b/c I got a bunch of 36's and a 38 on FL #11.
My gpa is 3.77 from a school that is infamous for grade deflation.

However, I dont think I will retake.

It kinda sucks because with a 32, your chances at the top research schools is greatly diminshed yet according to this thread, adcoms also ask for you to not retake a 32, how does that make sense?

Same I hit 37 on AAMC 9 37 on AAMC10 and 38 on AAMC11, it sucks when you score much lower than your average!
 
Same I hit 37 on AAMC 9 37 on AAMC10 and 38 on AAMC11, it sucks when you score much lower than your average!
Yea I got a 32. (PS 12/ VR 9/ BS 11). I am pretty bummed b/c I got a bunch of 36's and a 38 on FL #11.
My gpa is 3.77 from a school that is infamous for grade deflation.

However, I dont think I will retake.

It kinda sucks because with a 32, your chances at the top research schools is greatly diminshed yet according to this thread, adcoms alsoed ask for you to not retake a 32, how does that make sense?

granted, she did say its a different story when gunning for harvard lol. But to mid tiers/low tiers, it'll look bad
 
I was thinking of retaking a 35 because I was confident I could get a 40 if I actually studied for it. I don't mean that as a brag, I'm just good at tests. Now I'm glad I didn't.

Nice humblebrag, man. Anyway, retaking a great score just reeks of arrogance.
 
No
Is this common?


Yes
I just read a thread on here of a medical student posting about how many of his friends at ucsf retook MCATs of 30-34 to get 37+ scores. Is it a rare sight to see such increases?

It's a sign of hubris to retake with a good score. As my sage colleague gyngyn has often said, at his school, it casts huge doubts on the ability of the applicant to make good choices. SDN is also NOT representative of the pre-med community as a whole.

My MCAT is in the 30-34 range and I'm not contemplating retaking but just hearing about this got me thinking....SDN is filled with so many ballers[/QUOTE]
 
I told her I was thinking about retaking my 34 since my AAMC tests were 3-4 points above that and i didnt get sleep before my exam. She said even if I retook and did much better she wouldnt offer me an interview because it looks arrogant to retake a good score. She said dont retake a 30, unless your from Cali, then dont retake a 31
Anyway, retaking a great score just reeks of arrogance.
It's a sign of hubris to retake with a good score. As my sage colleague gyngyn has often said, at his school, it casts huge doubts on the ability of the applicant to make good choices. SDN is also NOT representative of the pre-med community as a whole.
I still don't understand this attitude. In my opinion is it beyond incredibly judgmental, and speaks to a distaste for individuals that actually show persistence and ambition. There's no way to know what could have happened during the first test. Maybe the applicant experienced family trouble the night before and was sleep deprived, yet made a tough decision not to void because he/she still felt confident. I'm just making this up and this is only one of countless possibilities where you're punishing someone for not settling, but instead going above and beyond the minimum to demonstrate their qualifications and potential.
 
It's one thing to be persistent, but it's another to be foolish. Retakes are more likely to yield a LOWER score, the same score, or one that is incrementally higher, like from a 32-> 33. It's behavior that the great historian Barbara Tuchman described as 'folly", meaning, contrary to one's self-interest.

I still don't understand this attitude. In my opinion is it beyond incredibly judgmental, and speaks to a distaste for individuals that actually show persistence and ambition.

We also worry about people who make poor choices, especially when career-defining, high stakes exams are involved. Makes us wonder how you'd handle a tough call in the ER.

There's no way to know what could have happened during the first test. Maybe the applicant experienced family trouble the night before and was sleep deprived, yet made a tough decision not to void because he/she still felt confident.

This assume the test taker will always be able to raise the bar. Reality proves otherwise.

I'm just making this up and this is only one of countless possibilities where you're punishing someone for not settling, but instead going above and beyond the minimum to demonstrate their qualifications and potential.


The avg score for MD matriculants is 33. A 32 is FINE. There are lots of schools you'll get into with that. OK, not Harvard or WashU, but you'll still be a doctor who will get a fine education.


Last year I scored a 32 after having a consistent 38 average. I have since improved my strategy, studied more, and taken a few helpful classes. I have been scoring high 30's - 40's on new full lengths after preparing for the past month or so. Am I not supposed to retake...? If I don't, my chances at a lot of schools seem pretty low...
 
Head of admissions at USC told me she wouldnt even consider an applicant who retook >31 no matter what they got
Well I guess I better tell that to my friend retakingn his 32
 
Well, I'm glad that I decided not to retake my 33! 👍 Good to know. I see both sides of the argument; on the one hand, you want to prove that you can go above and beyond in order to excel at a higher level. I think a lot of pre-medical students are driven by their own ambition and standards, so they want to show themselves (as well as med schools) that they are capable of improvement. On the other hand, however, it is sometimes necessary to realize when something is "good enough" and to stop obsessing about making it perfect.
 
I scored a 31 (11,9,11) in 2012 and looks like my score may expire in a year or two. I got on a few wait lists, but with my low uGpa (3.1-3.2), and knowing my average practice tests were higher, I am in the process of retaking in a few months. Especially with the point increase in average matriculants to 33 (usually around 31 in past), I feel it's necessary to improve my score to improve my application.
 
It's one thing to be persistent, but it's another to be foolish. Retakes are more likely to yield a LOWER score, the same score, or one that is incrementally higher, like from a 32-> 33. It's behavior that the great historian Barbara Tuchman described as 'folly", meaning, contrary to one's self-interest.
As a statistic describing retakers overall, yes, but you can't make the assumption that it's actually the case for a given test taker. If an individual averages over 40 (for example) on all AAMC practice exams, then some extraordinary circumstance out of their control occurs that causes them to underperform and score a 32, I would argue it is in fact far more likely that they would increase their score drastically upon retaking. Regardless, there's no data specific to these circumstances so there's no way to say. The only information available for such situations (and the tester's decision) is that their practice average was much, much higher while their score was an outlier in comparison. If anything it's encouragement in deciding to retake.
We also worry about people who make poor choices, especially when career-defining, high stakes exams are involved. Makes us wonder how you'd handle a tough call in the ER.
The poor choice being retaking? Or choosing to sit for the exam (or not void) despite extraordinary circumstances? If the former, I've addressed that above, and if the latter, without knowing the circumstances you can't judge the choice.
This assume the test taker will always be able to raise the bar. Reality proves otherwise.
Why is such an assumption necessary and why does it matter? If an applicant scored a 33, and retook and scored a 25, you would have confirmation that not only was the 33 not a low estimate of their true score (whatever score perfectly represents what the test is trying to measure in them) but it was in fact a high estimate and their true score is statistically more likely to be below 33 and closer to 25.*Edit: previous sentence is untrue, see next post*

If the applicant retook a 33 and scored a 40, all this tells you is the 33 was an outlier and a low estimate of their true score, which is clearly closer to 40 (I argue this specifically because 40 is outside the 99% CI for a 33 and so the first score can be assumed an unrepresentative outlier when considering the scaling of the exam (i.e. you're more likely to get a lower score by chance than a very high score such as a 40)). You have no way of knowing A) whether the student's choice to sit for or score the first exam was a poor choice or B) whether the students choice to retake was a poor choice because you have no contextual knowledge about the situation.
 
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Why is such an assumption necessary and why does it matter? If an applicant scored a 33, and retook and scored a 25, you would have confirmation that not only was the 33 not a low estimate of their true score (whatever score perfectly represents what the test is trying to measure in them) but it was in fact a high estimate and their true score is statistically more likely to be below 33 and closer to 25.

If the applicant retook a 33 and scored a 40, all this tells you is the 33 was an outlier and a low estimate of their true score, which is clearly closer to 40 (I argue this specifically because 40 is outside the 99% CI for a 33 and so the first score can be assumed an unrepresentative outlier when considering the scaling of the exam (i.e. you're more likely to get a lower score by chance than a very high score such as a 40)). You have no way of knowing A) whether the student's choice to sit for or score the first exam was a poor choice or B) whether the students choice to retake was a poor choice because you have no contextual knowledge about the situation.

I assume you haven't taken stats yet? I don't want to be mean, but none of this makes sense. You repeatedly assign more credibility to the second measurement for no reason at all.
 
I assume you haven't taken stats yet? I don't want to be mean, but none of this makes sense. You repeatedly assign more credibility to the second measurement for no reason at all.
Assuming the scores are equally credible we still get an average above the initial score (for an increase upon retake) and below the initial score (for a decrease upon retake) around which we can construct a new confidence interval. In both cases this means the initial was an outlier, even if we recognize equal chance that the new score is as well.

My thought process in assessing the new scores is that for the initial score, a 33, the confidence interval is such that a retake score such as a 25 or a 40 in both cases is distant enough that the true score cannot plausibly lie within the CI of both scores. If we make the assumption, for the sake of argument, that the tester's true score is in fact within the 33 CI, then we have to consider the role of chance. Increasing contribution of chance vs tester characteristic would be associated with increased deviation of the reported score from the tester's true score. However, because chance is a probabilistic contributor this doesn't mean the deviation is equally bidirectional when looking at scaled scores. As a limiting case, consider a score given with 100% contribution from chance and o% from tester characteristic. The reliability of the test in this case is 0 and upon infinite retaking would yield a distribution where, on average, the tester got 25% of the questions right. As the contribution from chance increases, the tendency is for the scaled score to drift downward toward the more likely scaled scores, not upward. In the case of the retaker that falls to 25, if we make the assumption that their true score was more closely represented by the 33, then we are left to conclude that the role of chance played an even greater role in the second instance than the first. The idea behind the possibility of retaking a 33 being a "good decision" is that the tester is confident that the 33 is a low estimate and an outlier. Were that the case, it's improbable that a second measurement would even further fall away from their true score. So we're left with the conclusion that the 33 was almost certainly not low estimate, and while we may not be able to say the 25 is closer to the true score (I did mistakenly say that in the post you quoted) it basically confirms that the true score is not higher than 33. In the case of the retaker that jumps to 40, it basically confirms that true score was higher than 33 for the reasons I've explained above.

Now, mind you, this is all reasoning I came up with in the process of writing the post you quoted, but if it's faulty A) I'd like to know why and B) I'm sorry for posting it. I don't believe I've encountered a problem of this sort of reasoning before. But yes, I have taken stats.

Edit: Holy cheeses this is complicated and I'm even confusing myself. At a 99% CI for the MCAT there is overlap between a 33 and a 40, but if I expand the difference a couple points I believe this reasoning still works.
 
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In both cases this means the initial was an outlier

Um. No.

You can't have an outlier with only two data points. Maybe one of the two would end up being an outlier if you gather more data, but there's no way to determine whether one or both would, let alone identify which one.
 
Um. No.

You can't have an outlier with only two data points. Maybe one of the two would end up being an outlier if you gather more data, but there's no way to determine whether one or both would, let alone identify which one.
Not what I mean. Not an outlier in that it differs from the distribution too greatly but in the sense that it lies far enough away from the center of the CI of the average of the two scores such that the chance of it representing the true score is negligible.
 
I deal with the collective, not cases-in-point. I've seen way too many posts here from people were doing well on practice tests and then scored worse.



As a statistic describing retakers overall, yes, but you can't make the assumption that it's actually the case for a given test taker. If an individual averages over 40 (for example) on all AAMC practice exams, then some extraordinary circumstance out of their control occurs that causes them to underperform and score a 32, I would argue it is in fact far more likely that they would increase their score drastically upon retaking. Regardless, there's no data specific to these circumstances so there's no way to say. The only information available for such situations (and the tester's decision) is that their practice average was much, much higher while their score was an outlier in comparison. If anything it's encouragement in deciding to retake.

I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions. You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.

Of the people I've interviewed with 32+ scores who retook, the answer is always the same: "I thought I could do better". These are people who are not happy with a 90th+ percentile score! We're scared of these people. They're perfectionists, and in a bad way. They actually do poorly in medical school because they try to learn everything, and end up learning nothing. Either that, or they're constantly in our offices arguing over why their 95% on the anatomy exam should really be a 97%. Don't believe me? Ask gyngyn.

The poor choice being retaking? Or choosing to sit for the exam (or not void) despite extraordinary circumstances? If the former, I've addressed that above, and if the latter, without knowing the circumstances you can't judge the choice.
Why is such an assumption necessary and why does it matter? If an applicant scored a 33, and retook and scored a 25, you would have confirmation that not only was the 33 not a low estimate of their true score (whatever score perfectly represents what the test is trying to measure in them) but it was in fact a high estimate and their true score is statistically more likely to be below 33 and closer to 25.



Again, someone not happy with a 33 is someone who gives us pause. My Dean likes high MCAT scores, so he'll take these people, because he doesn't have to teach them. But at some MD schools, gyngyn's for one, a retake is a strike-out.

If the applicant retook a 33 and scored a 40, all this tells you is the 33 was an outlier and a low estimate of their true score, which is clearly closer to 40 (I argue this specifically because 40 is outside the 99% CI for a 33 and so the first score can be assumed an unrepresentative outlier when considering the scaling of the exam (i.e. you're more likely to get a lower score by chance than a very high score such as a 40)). You have no way of knowing A) whether the student's choice to sit for or score the first exam was a poor choice or B) whether the students choice to retake was a poor choice because you have no contextual knowledge about the situation.[/QUOTE]
 
I deal with the collective, not cases-in-point. I've seen way too many posts here from people were doing well on practice tests and then scored worse.
But you're judging individuals, not a distribution of applicants as a whole. As I'm understanding this you reject individual people based on collective data. That's ridiculous.
I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions.
What ill-founded assumptions? You have no way of knowing what assumptions the applicant made or didn't make! The assumption that they'll score higher? One's AAMC FL average is so much more informative than population data on retakers. Someone scoring around their FL average on the real deal? Yeah, them assuming that they'll increase on a retake "just because" is an ill-founded assumption.
You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.
I'm not arguing at all that this sort of thing doesn't happen, even frequently, but even if it's not a 7 point increase, someone who goes up on retake may very well have made good assumptions about their chances to do so.
Of the people I've interviewed with 32+ scores who retook, the answer is always the same: "I thought I could do better". These are people who are not happy with a 90th+ percentile score! We're scared of these people. They're perfectionists, and in a bad way. They actually do poorly in medical school because they try to learn everything, and end up learning nothing. Either that, or they're constantly in our offices arguing over why their 95% on the anatomy exam should really be a 97%. Don't believe me? Ask gyngyn.
If you knew (for the sake of argument) you were in the 99th percentile for some characteristic a test was designed to measure, and you received a score in the 90th percentile, would you be content? I can't say I would, especially when the difference (while both may garner an acceptance somewhere) can mean a different school, financial aid, living arrangements, etc...
Again, someone not happy with a 33 is someone who gives us pause. My Dean likes high MCAT scores, so he'll take these people, because he doesn't have to teach them. But at some MD schools, gyngyn's for one, a retake is a strike-out.
Well I just don't get it.
 
I deal with the collective, not cases-in-point. I've seen way too many posts here from people were doing well on practice tests and then scored worse.



As a statistic describing retakers overall, yes, but you can't make the assumption that it's actually the case for a given test taker. If an individual averages over 40 (for example) on all AAMC practice exams, then some extraordinary circumstance out of their control occurs that causes them to underperform and score a 32, I would argue it is in fact far more likely that they would increase their score drastically upon retaking. Regardless, there's no data specific to these circumstances so there's no way to say. The only information available for such situations (and the tester's decision) is that their practice average was much, much higher while their score was an outlier in comparison. If anything it's encouragement in deciding to retake.

I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions. You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.

Of the people I've interviewed with 32+ scores who retook, the answer is always the same: "I thought I could do better". These are people who are not happy with a 90th+ percentile score! We're scared of these people. They're perfectionists, and in a bad way. They actually do poorly in medical school because they try to learn everything, and end up learning nothing. Either that, or they're constantly in our offices arguing over why their 95% on the anatomy exam should really be a 97%. Don't believe me? Ask gyngyn.

The poor choice being retaking? Or choosing to sit for the exam (or not void) despite extraordinary circumstances? If the former, I've addressed that above, and if the latter, without knowing the circumstances you can't judge the choice.
Why is such an assumption necessary and why does it matter? If an applicant scored a 33, and retook and scored a 25, you would have confirmation that not only was the 33 not a low estimate of their true score (whatever score perfectly represents what the test is trying to measure in them) but it was in fact a high estimate and their true score is statistically more likely to be below 33 and closer to 25.



Again, someone not happy with a 33 is someone who gives us pause. My Dean likes high MCAT scores, so he'll take these people, because he doesn't have to teach them. But at some MD schools, gyngyn's for one, a retake is a strike-out.

If the applicant retook a 33 and scored a 40, all this tells you is the 33 was an outlier and a low estimate of their true score, which is clearly closer to 40 (I argue this specifically because 40 is outside the 99% CI for a 33 and so the first score can be assumed an unrepresentative outlier when considering the scaling of the exam (i.e. you're more likely to get a lower score by chance than a very high score such as a 40)). You have no way of knowing A) whether the student's choice to sit for or score the first exam was a poor choice or B) whether the students choice to retake was a poor choice because you have no contextual knowledge about the situation.

Hey Goro,

I understand the rationale as to why Adcoms look down upon retaking 30+ scores, however does this change if someone scores a low 30 and doesn't get in?

I took the MCAT in 2011 and got a 32 and applied in the 2012-2013 cycle and didn't get in. I'm re-applying for the 2014-2015 cycle, and one of the improvements to my application is that I retook the MCAT and got a 38. Is being a re-applicant (i.e. I'm not a perfectionist as I tried applying with a 32) and retaking the 30+ frowned upon? I also addressed many other weaknesses in my application, but its concerning that I may have gotten a "strike-out" for trying to improve my application and retaking my MCAT...

Thanks!
 
I deal with the collective, not cases-in-point. I've seen way too many posts here from people were doing well on practice tests and then scored worse.



As a statistic describing retakers overall, yes, but you can't make the assumption that it's actually the case for a given test taker. If an individual averages over 40 (for example) on all AAMC practice exams, then some extraordinary circumstance out of their control occurs that causes them to underperform and score a 32, I would argue it is in fact far more likely that they would increase their score drastically upon retaking. Regardless, there's no data specific to these circumstances so there's no way to say. The only information available for such situations (and the tester's decision) is that their practice average was much, much higher while their score was an outlier in comparison. If anything it's encouragement in deciding to retake.

I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions. You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.

Of the people I've interviewed with 32+ scores who retook, the answer is always the same: "I thought I could do better". These are people who are not happy with a 90th+ percentile score! We're scared of these people. They're perfectionists, and in a bad way. They actually do poorly in medical school because they try to learn everything, and end up learning nothing. Either that, or they're constantly in our offices arguing over why their 95% on the anatomy exam should really be a 97%. Don't believe me? Ask gyngyn.

The poor choice being retaking? Or choosing to sit for the exam (or not void) despite extraordinary circumstances? If the former, I've addressed that above, and if the latter, without knowing the circumstances you can't judge the choice.
Why is such an assumption necessary and why does it matter? If an applicant scored a 33, and retook and scored a 25, you would have confirmation that not only was the 33 not a low estimate of their true score (whatever score perfectly represents what the test is trying to measure in them) but it was in fact a high estimate and their true score is statistically more likely to be below 33 and closer to 25.



Again, someone not happy with a 33 is someone who gives us pause. My Dean likes high MCAT scores, so he'll take these people, because he doesn't have to teach them. But at some MD schools, gyngyn's for one, a retake is a strike-out.

If the applicant retook a 33 and scored a 40, all this tells you is the 33 was an outlier and a low estimate of their true score, which is clearly closer to 40 (I argue this specifically because 40 is outside the 99% CI for a 33 and so the first score can be assumed an unrepresentative outlier when considering the scaling of the exam (i.e. you're more likely to get a lower score by chance than a very high score such as a 40)). You have no way of knowing A) whether the student's choice to sit for or score the first exam was a poor choice or B) whether the students choice to retake was a poor choice because you have no contextual knowledge about the situation.
[/QUOTE]

You have the time to format all this... you have the time to multi-quote. Please.

Also, you being the only person to reply to things above the OP is.... unique.
 
Going low to improve one's chances after a bad app cycle, that I can live with. But good -> good, or slightly better, because "I thought I could better"...that worries us. You're fine.

Hey Goro,

I understand the rationale as to why Adcoms look down upon retaking 30+ scores, however does this change if someone scores a low 30 and doesn't get in?

I took the MCAT in 2011 and got a 32 and applied in the 2012-2013 cycle and didn't get in. I'm re-applying for the 2014-2015 cycle, and one of the improvements to my application is that I retook the MCAT and got a 38. Is being a re-applicant (i.e. I'm not a perfectionist as I tried applying with a 32) and retaking the 30+ frowned upon? I also addressed many other weaknesses in my application, but its concerning that I may have gotten a "strike-out" for trying to improve my application and retaking my MCAT...

Thanks!
 
Is it a rare sight? Check out AAMC's stats tables here: https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/mcat/admissionsadvisors/mcat_stats/ Basically, people whose original score was in the 30-32 range have about a 65% chance of increasing their score with a retake; if the original score was 33-35, it goes down to just above 50%. For people who do increase their score, the typical increase is 1-3 points; the odds of someone increasing their score from 30-34 to 37+ are about 15%.

If someone says that "many" of their friends with scores above 30 retook and added 3+ points to their score, either their friends are disproportionately lucky on the MCAT, or they are lying about their MCAT scores.
wow. That felt like a colonoscopy
 
I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions. You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.

While this makes a lot of sense, it's also surprising to me. I guest many people have different motivations for retaking (either competitiveness, hopes of merit-aid, balanced score etc). Albeit a red flag, I imagine you still do a holistic review of the applicant? Let's say you have a 30 and a 3.8, what comes to mind? Maybe the student is a poor test taker or there is some grade inflation going on (depending on courses taken)? Either way, I would imagine a rational applicant would want to avoid the risk of being lumped into that category.

I agree with the irrationality of retaking when you score above 90th percentile (~33) because of the aspect you brought up (and alternatively, as MCAT scores are not a perfect correlation for medical school performance). However, no doubt each group of applicants (eg internationals, non-trad, etc) are in different situations and may need different goals to satisfy an adcom granting you an interview. Once he/she got an interview, I would think numbers get thrown out unless there exists a perception of weakness in academic ability (which questions why he/she was granted an interview in the first place) OR a similar candidate has higher stats.

There are a limited number of MD programs that accept international applicants (IA). Only a minority of those programs will compare IA to the same standards as a US citizen. A disproportionate amount of those programs have much higher medians MCAT scores (according to MSAR) than the average score of a matriculant. These programs with the higher medians are typically the ones that don't consider citizenship during admissions. For the programs that do consider it, they expect better performance on the MCAT (eg UNC will send a secondary to IA who score a min of 33). So essentially an IA's "good enough" may not begin until 33. It would not make sense to me to apply with a 30 MCAT for a students in this group when they may be averaging much higher (4-5 pts). To avoid any backlash, I do understand your comments were targeted for the general applicant (not individual cases).

Do top 20 MD program adcoms have similar perceptions of retakes @LizzyM ? In regards to domestic applicants and IAs? There must be a minimum cut-off for MCAT (or something MCAT-related), especially since top 20 programs typically get a larger volume of applications.
 
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I get paid to judge. A score in the low 30s is still competitive. A retake for a better score, while we can understand the rationale, still means the applicant is a risk taker who takes the risk on ill-founded assumptions. You assume that people are actually doing something intelligent like practicing and prepping. Yet, I see post after post here from people who simply retake because they expect magic to occur and get a higher score. I've interviewed scores of people like this with lower scores, who do the same thing, and I have no reason to think that judgement rises with a first-time MCAT score.

Of the people I've interviewed with 32+ scores who retook, the answer is always the same: "I thought I could do better". These are people who are not happy with a 90th+ percentile score! We're scared of these people. They're perfectionists, and in a bad way. They actually do poorly in medical school because they try to learn everything, and end up learning nothing. Either that, or they're constantly in our offices arguing over why their 95% on the anatomy exam should really be a 97%. Don't believe me? Ask gyngyn.

This is not the perspective at my school whose average (mean, median, etc) is above 32. Although, when counseling premeds, including those interested in my school, I generally do not recommend retaking 32+ scores. However, there are exceptions, some of the rationale being found in other posts on this thread. I do not see it as a sign of bad judgment, just a choice being made that may not work out. Premeds make a lot of academic choices, some work out, some don't. Risky choices premeds routinely make that may make their GPA worse include things like going to MIT or Caltech, being a ChemE major, taking a hard literature course instead of "intro to SciFi". There are a lot of ways to evaluate candidates for medical school, and taking the MCAT twice is not really one of them at my place. Clearly, YMMV.
 
At the end of the day each applicant knows their abilities best. Retaking the test after a few months of fresh studying and preparation is not the same as, I suspect, the majority of retakes where a student gets an undesirable score in the Spring and rushes a retake in June/July.

It's not fair to say that a low/mid 30s has the same options as a mid/high 30s, even though the percentiles are very similar. I think that a school pre-med advisor can be a good source of information. I was told straight out that no one from my college, in the past 15 years, had gotten into medical schools A, B, C with an MCAT below X. My MCAT was below X and I wanted a chance at those schools...no brainer.
 
My score went down 8 points on a retake, albeit 10 years between tests. I could have gotten stupider over time or just vagaries in the test. It is probably a little from column A and a little from column B. It is a gamble for sure. I had to retake my good score because it was expired. I was fine with my lower test, and it did not occur to me to retake even though I obviously can score much higher.
 
Not so crazy. Numerous ADCOMs have posted that retaking a good score screams arrogance.

That's a shame :/ My friend retook at 33 because he thought his score was too unbalanced (VR 8), and got a 38 in his retake. I wish I had known this before because he asked me about it, and though I thought a 33 was good enough, I asked him to consult premed advisors who ended up not giving him a definitive yay or nay...
 
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I think he'll be fine 33- > 38 is a huge improvement, and very rare. + I'm sure top schools don't care about MCAT retakes if their gunning for high MCAT students (and remember, a 38 is like 99%)
 
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