RISE used for promotion

[yaah]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Received a PM from someone asking if I would post this - apparently there are some programs who may use RISE results as part of promotion/remediation. I will put my comments in a new message but below are these comments. I don't know what program this relates to - the person who PMd me isn't even at the program in question...

-------------------------
Are there many programs that use the RISE for promotion, termination, and remediation? The quote below is from a program that does. Is this appropriate since numerous residencies give the RISE without proctoring and with "open book" or an honor system.... Shoot... having pathologyoutlines open as you are taking the test could give you sky high scores could it not? Physicians are supposed to be highly ethical and refrain from other behaviors. You know the type that would never cheat on their spouses, their taxes, or take illicit drugs. But we all know what a big load of BS that can be. Crap when you know people look up the answer to unknowns before a didactic session and pretend that they worked a case up by themselves (you know a case that took an attending a week with a battery of immunostains) don't you think they would use a little help on the RISE in an over the weekend honor type setting administration. And isn't everyone that takes this test compared to everyone? There are people who have been practicing pathologists for years in Latin America, China, India, or Europe and then do a complete second residency in the US. These individuals would likely cream the AP portion at least. We all know what a crap shoot CP could be.
This quote was posted on a programs website and it seemed unbelievable. Have leaders lost their minds in an effort to intimidate and control. Heads should be rolling on the one folks. If they want to use the RISE in this way EVERYONE should get the test in a standardized proctored manner and all training curriculum should be similar. Shenanigans galore my friends.

"In Service Examination

The Residency Training Program subscribes to the Residency In Service Examination Program sponsored by the American Society of Clinical Pathologists. Each year, Residents are required to take the part or parts of the examination that are relevant to their Training Program. Each Resident receives feedback about his examination scores and the Residency Program receives individual and aggregate scores in each tested subdiscipline. Resident performance on this examination may be used in consideration for promotion, remediation or termination."

 

[yaah]

My thoughts - I think the interpretation of this statement from that program is a bit excessive - to me this statement probably refers to residents who do very poorly on certain parts of the RISE, and the program uses that to focus on. I doubt RISE results would be a basis for termination anywhere - but if someone is a poor performing resident I suspect RISE could be "evidence" to that fact.


As to the "cheating" issue, I always wonder about that too. Our program has no proctoring - we basically get the website and our password and we can take it whenever we want. I don't know if people take the test with a book next to them or another computer open. It makes little sense to do so, since the test is about your own knowledge and your own improvement. But I understand the concern voiced above that if the test is used for other purposes, there is more impetus to cheat. Personally, there were lots of questions on there that I wouldn't know how to find in a book anyway, or were vague.

I also think the RISE would be a good tool to see if people needed remediation, although simple performance and regular evaluations would be far better.

 

[green mantis]

At my residency program, we took the RISE on one of the weekends as a group in the computer lab. The people who couldn't make it were allowied to take the test on their own. It was semi-proctored because the PD would come by & do a walkthrough every so often.

I didn't mind the format, but I didn't enjoy wasting 1 day during a weekend taking a test. I know of several residencies where the residents take the RISE during work hours.

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me if a program uses the RISE to evaluate its residents. I have a friend who's at a DO neurosurgery residency. His PD does just that. Several of the residents in his program have been held back a year do to poor performance (not just on the inservice exam).


----- Antony

 

[Gran Turismo]

I think using the RISE as a tool for resident promotion is totally crazy. Firstly, every program has a different format. Some have all of their AP the first 2-3 years and then CP at the end. Others have a mix of AP and CP throughout the program. Also, some programs are busier than others and finding a time to study for RISE type questions might not be available until the end of the program. The one thing I find troubling about the website posting is that the program doesn't seem to mention taking any responsibility of the RISE measuring their progress in resident training. A lot of the pathology residency work is noneducational and pure labor. If someone is getting their service work done efficiently and performing poorly on the RISE, maybe the program is failing on their end by not actually teaching. This kind of stuff is very alarming. We are physicians who already have a degree, not medical students who not might make the cut. Resident education is also their job, otherwise they shouldn't accept Medicare funding for ACGME training spots. I personally wouldn't be able to learn with that vague potential threat hanging over my head. Very alarming!! I would like to know what program this is, as I find it hard to believe.

 

[LADoc00]

using in-service examination for promotion is COMMON in many specialities and is much more common the worse the program is because that will give less desirable programs the ability to bounce a real bad apple when needed.

My advice is if your program is using (or even requiring) your RISE exam results, you might want to think about switching to a better program...

 

[Dermbound00]

Wow! I did not know there are residency programs that do such a ridiculous thing, whether they follow through with the statement or not. Every program I am aware of has a laid-back approach to the RISE exam (then again most of these programs are top tier programs). It is used for the individual resident to monitor their progress and identify areas of improvement. For residency programs, it should be used to identify areas where improving the residency training may be warranted.
What exactly then is the purpose of the AP/CP boards??? If you cannot pass the AP/CP boards, you are not going to be practicing in the field of pathology for too long.
A program that uses the RISE in this way should raise SERIOUS red flags for any candidate applying to the field of pathology. It is worse than having a potential employer give you a slide quiz on an interview day. It is insulting!

 

[deleted113029]

I think using the RISE as a tool for resident promotion is totally crazy. Firstly, every program has a different format. Some have all of their AP the first 2-3 years and then CP at the end. Others have a mix of AP and CP throughout the program. Also, some programs are busier than others and finding a time to study for RISE type questions might not be available until the end of the program. The one thing I find troubling about the website posting is that the program doesn't seem to mention taking any responsibility of the RISE measuring their progress in resident training. A lot of the pathology residency work is noneducational and pure labor. If someone is getting their service work done efficiently and performing poorly on the RISE, maybe the program is failing on their end by not actually teaching. This kind of stuff is very alarming. We are physicians who already have a degree, not medical students who not might make the cut. Resident education is also their job, otherwise they shouldn't accept Medicare funding for ACGME training spots. I personally wouldn't be able to learn with that vague potential threat hanging over my head. Very alarming!! I would like to know what program this is, as I find it hard to believe.

i do believe we were separated at birth...your thoughts are eerily similar to mine.

at my program, the rise is voluntary as it should be...

 

[microdot]

Very alarming!! I would like to know what program this is, as I find it hard to believe.

Quick internet search:

Maybe this one?
http://path-www.path.cwru.edu/information2.php?info_id=29

 

[xanthines]

Heh. I was about to do the same. Your Google-Fu is most impressive!

Anyway, I go to CWRU (aka "Case") as a student and I've never heard of anyone being held back or fired because of RISE in the path dept (I'm interested in path so I hang out there a lot). For an N=2, I never heard of residents being held back or fired because of RISE at the path dept who employed me before med school (although a spectacularly low score AND poor performance during signout/gross/conference/whatever could do it).

I get the feeling there's a real disconnect between pathology and the website at Case. In any case, the chairman is bailing out so who knows what they'll put up on the website next.

-X

P.S. Of course, just because I didn't hear about doesn't mean it didn't happen!!

Quick internet search:

Maybe this one?
http://path-www.path.cwru.edu/information2.php?info_id=29

 

[LADoc00]

I would almost guarantee the weight of the RISE exam is directly proportional to the % FMGs in that program.

 

[paleman]

I would almost guarantee the weight of the RISE exam is directly proportional to the % FMGs in that program.

oh you mean the weight of exam is proportional to the no of fmgs which is proportion to how average the program is??? i disagree fully.

 

[LADoc00]

oh you mean the weight of exam is proportional to the no of fmgs which is proportion to how average the program is??? i disagree fully.

no what Im saying is that programs with large numbers of FMGs are weighting the exam much more heavily. This is pure speculation but holds true for every FMG heavy and non FMG residency program Im familiar with. Why this is the case is also pure speculation.

I would probably guess that FMGs are actually highly correlative epiphenomenon here. The real issue is the inability/lack of willingness of the faculty to teach, which leads to declining program quality, which leads to program being less selective which leads to FMGs being more likely to be accepted as "non-trad" type applicants.