Robert Morris?

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MiesVanDerMom

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So, Robert Morris is supposed to be opening a new DO school for next application cycle. Does anyone know anything about it? All I can find are short articles saying it's opening. 😕
 
I think the rate of new schools should be on balance with available residency spots available. Unfortunately the amount of residency positions available has been remarkably stable for the last 10 or so years, so my concern is that while new schools opening will not immediately produce new doctors (given that medical school is 4 years), the residency positions, the clinical rotation sites and positions in teaching hospitals are going to become VERY scarce commodities.
 
given that there is a shortage of doctors in PA and that state MD schools show NO preference, i think it is a good idea. Also, there are plenty of primary care residency spots going unfilled or to foreign MDs. The aim of the school is to train primary care docs for PA as far as I understand it (I think they;re making 50% of their acceptances have to be from PA). So, I say bring it on.
 
i'm excited about all these new DO schools. maybe by the time or shortly after we become doctors we won't have to explain what a DO is to everyone we meet. 🙄
 
bigfatk said:
i'm excited about all these new DO schools. maybe by the time or shortly after we become doctors we won't have to explain what a DO is to everyone we meet. 🙄
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20 years ago only 1 in 20 new med students were osteopathic. Last year, 1 in 5 new med students was osteopathic. There is an increasing need for physicians in this country. The population is growing incredibly, yet allopathic medical schools have failed to keep up with the need to educate American doctors. In fact, it wasn't many years ago that the AMA predicted there would be too many dctors due to changes in managed care. They were wrong.

Some people claim that mid-level providers will be able to take up the slack because they are less expensive, train in less time, and are more willing to work in primary care. The thing that a lot of people seem to forget is that the average physician today is not like the physician of old. It used to be pretty impossible to become a doctor as a non-trad because the philosophy was that it doctors owed it to the profession to give it as many years as they could. It was also virtually impossible to get into med school as a woman. Doctors of old worked 90 hours/week and practiced until they were 85 if they could. It doesn't happen that way anymore. Today's doctors are not willing to work either that long or that hard, and will retire at a much earlier age. Over 50% of student now are women and they have a tendency to either work part-time or retire even earlier than the men do. Physicians today are working fewer hours and not spending as much time in practice, so they need to be replaced more quickly than was once the case.

A lot of people are complaining now that the standards will have to be lowered in order to fill all the new spots. So what? Who really cares if the average GPA and MCAT go down except for a few insecure premeds? ( Oh! it's so unfair that I worked hard to get a 25 and that guy will get in with a 20. I'm so much smarter than he is) Other than the occassional narcisistic ones, not too many patients really care about your GPA and MCAT score. They come into your office because they have a problem and want it fixed.

Somebody mentioned residency spots...well there are plenty of them right now, just not enough AOA ones. If the AOA really wants to keep osteopathic philosophy alive, then they need to open some more spots. Otherwise, there are plenty of allopathic spots available. The only thing that will happen when a few more DOs start graduating is that they'll be taking more allopathic spots and fewer FMGs will be getting residencies in the US. That might not be such a bad idea after all.
 
scpod said:
20 years ago only 1 in 20 new med students were osteopathic. Last year, 1 in 5 new med students was osteopathic. There is an increasing need for physicians in this country. The population is growing incredibly, yet allopathic medical schools have failed to keep up with the need to educate American doctors. In fact, it wasn't many years ago that the AMA predicted there would be too many dctors due to changes in managed care. They were wrong.

Some people claim that mid-level providers will be able to take up the slack because they are less expensive, train in less time, and are more willing to work in primary care. The thing that a lot of people seem to forget is that the average physician today is not like the physician of old. It used to be pretty impossible to become a doctor as a non-trad because the philosophy was that it doctors owed it to the profession to give it as many years as they could. It was also virtually impossible to get into med school as a woman. Doctors of old worked 90 hours/week and practiced until they were 85 if they could. It doesn't happen that way anymore. Today's doctors are not willing to work either that long or that hard, and will retire at a much earlier age. Over 50% of student now are women and they have a tendency to either work part-time or retire even earlier than the men do. Physicians today are working fewer hours and not spending as much time in practice, so they need to be replaced more quickly than was once the case.

A lot of people are complaining now that the standards will have to be lowered in order to fill all the new spots. So what? Who really cares if the average GPA and MCAT go down except for a few insecure premeds? ( Oh! it's so unfair that I worked hard to get a 25 and that guy will get in with a 20. I'm so much smarter than he is) Other than the occassional narcisistic ones, not too many patients really care about your GPA and MCAT score. They come into your office because they have a problem and want it fixed.

Somebody mentioned residency spots...well there are plenty of them right now, just not enough AOA ones. If the AOA really wants to keep osteopathic philosophy alive, then they need to open some more spots. Otherwise, there are plenty of allopathic spots available. The only thing that will happen when a few more DOs start graduating is that they'll be taking more allopathic spots and fewer FMGs will be getting residencies in the US. That might not be such a bad idea after all.
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good post as usual scpod. I agree with most of what you say. But it seems like these schools should be eased in slowly, not 5 schools in 2 years.
 
Just throwing my opinion as a PA resident out there for anyone that cares.

I do not think the solution to this problem is opening another osteopathic med school in PA. I like the idea of more osteopathic graduates, but this is not going to do anything to keep doctors in PA. PA is horrible state to for young people to work in any field. An article in the Philadelphia Metro today stated that schools lose close to 40% of their graduates to other states. Granted, the malpractice situation has improved a little, but the bottom line is that this state has a hard time convincing graduates to stay. Part of the problem is PA med schools not having a strong in-state pref, however, a good portion of this has to do with the overall job market.

This doctor shortage that is predicted is, IMO, somewhat misrepresented. The major problem will be primary care. There is not going to be a shortage of PRS or any of the other “lifestyle” residencies anytime soon. PA, like a lot of other states, has to do a better job of convincing med graduates to enter primary care fields within the state. This means either raise the avg salary, or come up with some strong debt alleviation for people going into PC. Look, we all know the “glory days” of people making a killing in medicince are over, but this field is no different than any other…if you want the best applicants you need to pay them as much or more than they could make elsewhere. Higher salaries/ debt alleviation /lower tuiton could solve the problem of decreasing admissions stats for DO schools. While this is mostly indicative of the newer schools, as many DO schools standards have increased during this time, it is still important to keep the admissions standards high if you plan on increasing the number of availible positions. The argument of "who cares if someone with a 20 on the MCAT gets in" does not cover the issue. It is not just about egotistic pre-meds, it is about admiting a quality applicants. A 20 on the MCAT pretty much shows that at this time, you lack the mental faculties necessary to be able to handle the complex material / job requirements expected of you in medicine. I was not an MCAT superstar, but it is nauseating reading the I got a 20T MCAT with a 2.4GPA, will xxcom accept me? While there are exceptions, it should not happen often.

If the # of kids entering med school is going to increase, then compensation for doctors has to as well, other wise you run the risk of admitting what would normally be considered underqualified applicants, had those spots not been made availible. Bascially, convince the really smart kids thinking of going into other fields that it makes financial sense to go into medicine rather than investment banking. Everyone hates to bring up the money issue with the medical field, as it is one of the “noble” professions, but compensation for PA docs needs to be addressed, otherwise we will turn into texas medical schools, who will basically admit anyone with a 98 body temperature (That was a joke Texans).

Sorry, that was way longer than any SDN’er should have to read from me.
 
bigfatk said:
i'm excited about all these new DO schools. maybe by the time or shortly after we become doctors we won't have to explain what a DO is to everyone we meet. 🙄
Click to expand...
Just don't put the letters after your name if you're that friggin' concerned about it......No one said your sign or lab coat have to read "Dr. Joe Schmoenstein, DO"

IF I go to a DO program, I'll simply list myself as "Dr. Stephen R---------" but that's simple enough because I most likely will not have an office to put a sign on.
 
Residency spots are governed largely by government funding. Every hospital in the coutnry would have 10 orthopod residencies if they weren't limited because of the revenue.

So when you increase medical students, without increaseing residency spots, somebody gets screwed. And think about hte quality of your education. IF do to the flux ofstudents, you get stuck in an FP residency out in nowhere montana, you will not recieve as adequate training as people in more populated areas. Also, there is a limited number of clinical spots. ONly so many people can rotate through cook county.

So yes, we need more doctors, but we need more GOOD residences, more specialist residencies. It is not as simple as increasing medical schools and class sizes. When every 6 six weeks you have to drive an hour in a different direction to due lack of clinical roation spots from the flux of medical students you won't be so happy.
 
Vox Animo said:
Residency spots are governed largely by government funding. Every hospital in the coutnry would have 10 orthopod residencies if they weren't limited because of the revenue.

So when you increase medical students, without increaseing residency spots, somebody gets screwed. And think about hte quality of your education. IF do to the flux ofstudents, you get stuck in an FP residency out in nowhere montana, you will not recieve as adequate training as people in more populated areas. Also, there is a limited number of clinical spots. ONly so many people can rotate through cook county.

So yes, we need more doctors, but we need more GOOD residences, more specialist residencies. It is not as simple as increasing medical schools and class sizes. When every 6 six weeks you have to drive an hour in a different direction to due lack of clinical roation spots from the flux of medical students you won't be so happy.
Click to expand...

This is a great point and in addition with an increased number of medical graduates competing for a limited number of residencies we will see the difficult to capture residencies become exclusively elite.
 
Nickelpennykid said:
A 20 on the MCAT pretty much shows that at this time, you lack the mental faculties necessary to be able to handle the complex material / job requirements expected of you in medicine .
Click to expand...

Yet, there are already thousands of them each year with 20 or less on the MCAT who graduate from foreign schools, get an MD degree, pass the USMLE and get a residency in the US. If that were true, then the state of medical care would already be in a shambles.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Just don't put the letters after your name if you're that friggin' concerned about it......No one said your sign or lab coat have to read "Dr. Joe Schmoenstein, DO"

IF I go to a DO program, I'll simply list myself as "Dr. Stephen R---------" but that's simple enough because I most likely will not have an office to put a sign on.
Click to expand...

actually, i'm not so "friggin'" concerned about it. i'm just excited about more schools opening and osteopathic medicine becoming more popular. i want more people to know what a DO is. i think we all do.
 
MiesVanDerMom said:
given that there is a shortage of doctors in PA and that state MD schools show NO preference, i think it is a good idea. Also, there are plenty of primary care residency spots going unfilled or to foreign MDs. The aim of the school is to train primary care docs for PA as far as I understand it (I think they;re making 50% of their acceptances have to be from PA). So, I say bring it on.
Click to expand...

When the mission of a school is to train primary care doctors for the state of the medical school, it's basically impotent because
1) This requires the schools to either force students into primary care, which doesn't happen, or only admit students who say they're driven to become primary care docs, but...
1) ....Medical students so commonly change their mind about specialties in medical school, especially when they start talking to other med students and doctors...
2) ...and the doctors tell them not to go into it

Granted, some people really DO want to be rural primary care doctors. I think that's awesome, personally. But the reality is that most people don't. Most people want to be highly-paid, highly-requested specialists.

So opening new schools without new teaching hospitals (and hence, creating more residencies) really only increases the competition for already-competitive spots in specialties. It's worse for all of us in that way.

There need to be more teaching hospitals built or more non-teaching hospitals converted (more likely).
 
MiesVanDerMom said:
So, Robert Morris is supposed to be opening a new DO school for next application cycle. Does anyone know anything about it? All I can find are short articles saying it's opening. 😕
Click to expand...

Honestly I wish the AOA would stop these schools from opening up. All these new schools are going to take lower and lower admission standards and in the end it'll reinforce the notion that we're are inferior docs. Pretty soon, even someone with a 17 MCAT will be able to get into medical school now.

Standards keep going down hill. And with all these questionable doctors, soon the general public is going to realize what's happening.
 
scpod said:
Yet, there are already thousands of them each year with 20 or less on the MCAT who graduate from foreign schools, get an MD degree, pass the USMLE and get a residency in the US.
Click to expand...

Which is a sad statment. Like I said before, adding more schools may increase the number of availible PC or FM doctors, but it is possible that it will increase the number of people in fields that are already going to be overcrowded, like say orthopedics and alot of the sub-specialities. Since the AOA has no intention of adding new residencies, they will be further reliant on MD programs to train graudates, and if those programs increase residncy seats across the board to accomodate new students in MD or DO programs, rather than just in PC, then there is still going to be an excess of specialists.
Instead of opening a ton of new schools and failing to increase the number of post-graudate training programs, why not just restructure residnecy positions / availbility across the board (DO / MD). Decrease the number of residency seats availible for professions that are allready in excess (according to Iserson's and other sources), increase reimbursment for PC, both of which will increase PC physicnans and avoid the problem of admiting marginally qualified candidates and / or lowering standards for new DO schools.
 
bigfatk said:
actually, i'm not so "friggin'" concerned about it. i'm just excited about more schools opening and osteopathic medicine becoming more popular. i want more people to know what a DO is. i think we all do.
Click to expand...
I could care less if they know what osteopathic medicine is, since I plan to practice allopathic medicine (read as: evidence based practice) regardless of the letters after my name.
 
No arguement will ever convince me that this rapid expansion is a good idea. There have to be standards, not everyone can get into medical school. (yes easy for me to say, im in. I took years to improve my application after college). The new AOA president talks about stopping this expansion but who knows if he will. And PA does not need a new medical school. This is a dying state. The population is slow to negative growth with a large portion of the state is elderly. We already turn out more doctors than more populous states. If anything they need to spend the effort to restructure the residency positions they have and get the malpractice situation under control.

The only brightside is at least its not McTouro opening another school <I am not saying that students there are inferior. I just think their administration is being irresponsible with their expansion. The money would be better focused on their current students>
 
the fact of the matter lies: thousands of residency spots go unfilled every year.

because this fact stands, schools will have every reason to open up, knowing their grads will have a 100% employment rate after graduation. opening med schools is a business, and it's all about supply and demand.

with the expansion of new schools, i think the selectivity of residency programs will increase (naturally, because there will be a larger pool of grads to pick from). the one's who arent as competitive will be left taking the empty primary care residencies
 
cee said:
the fact of the matter lies: thousands of residency spots go unfilled every year.

because this fact stands, schools will have every reason to open up, knowing their grads will have a 100% employment rate after graduation. opening med schools is a business, and it's all about supply and demand.

with the expansion of new schools, i think the selectivity of residency programs will increase (naturally, because there will be a larger pool of grads to pick from). the one's who arent as competitive will be left taking the empty primary care residencies
Click to expand...

That's all well and good but the schools are popping up at an alarming rate.

Besides, "selectivity"?

Why hate on some Canadian who finished top of class at Ross but take someone from some brand new DO school who got in with a 20M? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

There's only so many students from the American pool to take.
 
Yawn...


Pardon my sarcasm, but this has all been discussed ad nauseum in the "new DO schools" thread.

Wake me up when someone has some data to back their speculation...then I might get interested.
 
I just wish there would be more state-supported DO schools opening up ala MSU and OK State, etc.

That translates to better visibility, rotations, CHEAPER TUITION, and so much more.

If this school is a state-supported school then I do think that it is a step in the right direction. I just wish it was attached to a larger campus.
 
Fermata said:
That's all well and good but the schools are popping up at an alarming rate.

Besides, "selectivity"?

Why hate on some Canadian who finished top of class at Ross but take someone from some brand new DO school who got in with a 20M? Doesn't make a lot of sense.

There's only so many students from the American pool to take.
Click to expand...
If the FMG has awesome board scores, research, letters of rec and is at the top of his/her class....then they don't have to worry about someone who got in w/ less matching over them very much....but if that DO who got in w/ less rocks the boards and has a solid application from med school... who gives a $hit about how they did in undergrad....
 
Frankly, I am sick of the all this pretensious babbling. Have a little confidence....if not in your chosen profession (DO), at least in yourself. I read these posts and simply shake my head. Has anyone but myself realized that the only ones who perpetuate this thought of osteopathic inferiority is in fact Pre-Osteopathic students themselves. Why? If you are already worried about not scoring well enough to land the residency you want then it's as good as lost. In fact, as rude as it may sound, I'm glad I'll be competing for residency against those of you who are not confident in your abilities, or in the osteopathic philosphy. Simply put, I believe first in myself. I am confident that I can get the residency I want because I am willing to work hard for what I want. Second, I do believe in the osteopathic philosophy. I am, again, confident that DO best suites me, and that I will be taught all I need to know to become the best physician I can be. So, I'll stop rambling and end this post by saying; stop worrying about others, stop perpetuating inferiority (It isn't hurting anyone but yourself), and start thinking about how we as Pre-Osteopaths are going to become great physicians.

"You want it, GO get it!!!!!"
 
a lot of these posts make primary care sound like a disease or a prison sentence or something. i'm excited to be going into rural family practice if ever I get into med school. FM and Peds have the highest job satisfaction of any specialty in medicine.

As for the Wawa guy's comment: Pennsylvania may be a "dying state" as you so crudely put it, but our geezers have several decades left and they'll need plenty of care. In addition, despite declining population etc., there is still a proportinal shortage. I agree opening a new school alone doesn't solve the problem, but it does help. Some people will leave PA, but if they're from here originally, especially if they're female, they're likely to stay. Actually, if they female they're REALLY likely to stay, statistically speaking. Maybe they should open up an all women's med school. Hmmm....
 
It'sElectric said:
Thousands? Are you sure that's a fact?
Click to expand...
Yup......I remember hearing something on the order of 1,500 unfilled spots- mostly in unattractive residencies such as peds, FP, and less desirable IM slots.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Yup......I remember hearing something on the order of 1,500 unfilled spots- mostly in unattractive residencies such as peds, FP, and less desirable IM slots.
Click to expand...


My bad then. I took thousands to mean something along the lines of around 5,000. 1,500 still sounds high, but obviously I believe you, and that sounds much better than 5,000.
 
MiesVanDerMom said:
a lot of these posts make primary care sound like a disease or a prison sentence or something. i'm excited to be going into rural family practice if ever I get into med school. FM and Peds have the highest job satisfaction of any specialty in medicine.

As for the Wawa guy's comment: Pennsylvania may be a "dying state" as you so crudely put it, but our geezers have several decades left and they'll need plenty of care. In addition, despite declining population etc., there is still a proportinal shortage. I agree opening a new school alone doesn't solve the problem, but it does help. Some people will leave PA, but if they're from here originally, especially if they're female, they're likely to stay. Actually, if they female they're REALLY likely to stay, statistically speaking. Maybe they should open up an all women's med school. Hmmm....
Click to expand...

They did...it was Drexel (not called that at the time).
 
a lot of these posts make primary care sound like a disease or a prison sentence or something. i'm excited to be going into rural family practice if ever I get into med school. FM and Peds have the highest job satisfaction of any specialty in medicine.
Click to expand...

They also have some of the lowest board scores out there.......But you are right, I do think of it as a punishment for not doing better while in med school.....
 
DropkickMurphy said:
They also have some of the lowest board scores out there.......But you are right, I do think of it as a punishment for not doing better while in med school.....
Click to expand...

at least you're honest :laugh: i don't think anyone would ever accuse you of sugar coating anyway :laugh:
 
riceman04 said:
isn't that a very religious school
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Great, so not only will you have to not forget to do your requisite 10 "Hail A.T. Stills" but you'll also have to show up for the "Praise Jesus, aren't we some devout sons of bitches!?" sunrise service...... :laugh:
 
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