Role of DIO in termination-vs-resignation

[Mizrab98]

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I am resident who has lost all the appeals process. I am facing termination but still have not received the letter of termination. Can I still resign and try to salvage my medical career? How is resignation looked up on vs termination. I am an American graduate with high USMLE scores. Any advice?

 

[Searching4truth]

Hi Mizrab,
If you find out the answer, let me know> i'm kinda in the same boat.
Thank you,
Searching

 

[mlw03]

You're in bad shape either way. Whether you leave or are terminated, if you attempt to get into another residency, they will want to know exactly what happened so they can determine if you are worth taking a risk on.

 

[shopsteward]

It looks like you will be leaving your current program, either way. So the main consideration is whether there is anything you can do at this stage which would make getting another residency easier. Possible lines of action are -

1. Is there any chance that your resigning rather than being terminated has any benefits for your PD, eg in terms of his program's reputation, or the date on which you depart? If so, is there any chance that you can offer to resign in return for help in getting another residency, credit for the time you have been in training or a letter of recommendation? Anything else you have to offer him in return for these things? Once you have left the program, you have nothing to offer at all, so if there is any chance of getting progress on these issues, now is the time to try.

I appreciate that negotiating anything with the PD is going to be difficult/impossible at this stage, when relations have broken down so badly. Is there anyone else at your program who could act as an intermediary for you?

2. Make a list of everyone at the program you are on good terms with, and who might be able to help you with letters of recommendation or networking help. Talk to them while you are still in the program - once you have left, you will be off everyone's radar.

3. As you are an AMG, your medical school may be able to help. Who can you get in touch with there who might be able to help you find another residency?

Whatever the cause of your situation, you are going to have to acknowledge to yourself and to others what the problem was (eg. your level and application of medical knowledge, your working behaviours, your relationships with others, etc.). You will also need to understand and explain why the problem did not get resolved in a way that let you stay within the program. Finally, you will need to demonstrate why it won't be a problem in the future - which is likely to be about showing changed understanding and behaviours on your part. Defensiveness and self-justification are natural responses, but unlikely to serve you well at this point.

Good luck.

 

[mlw03]

I am also in a similar situation. I am a PGY1 and was told to not expect my contract be renewed. My evaluations have been average - nothing overtly bad. Seeing previous threads about terminating residents, I am very bleak about my chances. I am now thinking about getting a lawyer, as this is the only way to salvage this.

There are threads on that too. May or may not help, based on the posts. Can one's contract not be renewed even if you're a categorical resident?

 

[Smurfette]

There are threads on that too. May or may not help, based on the posts. Can one's contract not be renewed even if you're a categorical resident?

Yes, you can not be renewed as a categorical, and you can be fired if a categorical.

 

[gutonc]

There are threads on that too. May or may not help, based on the posts. Can one's contract not be renewed even if you're a categorical resident?

Yes. Categorical residents still sign contracts one year at a time. Somewhere buried in there is language to the effect of "contract renewal will be dependent on satisfactory performance" or something equally vague.

 

[mlw03]

Yes. Categorical residents still sign contracts one year at a time. Somewhere buried in there is language to the effect of "contract renewal will be dependent on satisfactory performance" or something equally vague.

Yeah, that's quite vague. Didn't realize there was so much leeway for a program to fire a resident they weren't happy with. I come from a small program, so just don't have much experience with this sort of thing. I suppose it's tough to tell from these forums which of the terminations are justified and which are not.

 

[gutonc]

Yeah, that's quite vague. Didn't realize there was so much leeway for a program to fire a resident they weren't happy with. I come from a small program, so just don't have much experience with this sort of thing. I suppose it's tough to tell from these forums which of the terminations are justified and which are not.

There's a difference between firing a resident mid-year, which requires a significant amount of work and documentation of lack of suitable performance (or significant misdeed) and is a lot of work, and non-renewal of contract which, frankly just requires not renewing a contract.

And as with most things on SDN, there's a bit of a reporting bias at work here. If you read SDN, everybody gets 250+ on the Steps and almost half of residents get fired for no reason. It doesn't take much insight to realize that can't possibly be true.

 

[gutonc]

Its people like you that makes me very very angry. By resorting to the lines of "it is so rare for a resident to be fired....", the blame is always put on the resident, not the director.

When I told my contract won't be renewed - I thought the same thing, except when I got onto SDN and it was so common to see such injustice done on residents. The fact that these PDs/attendings such malicious intent and personalities even exists really scares me on what kind of people get to become physicians.

Y'all need to chill the f**k out right now and work on your reading comprehension skills.

I never said it didn't happen. Nor did I say that people don't get fired or have their contracts not renewed for inappropriate, insubstantial or spurious reasons.

What I did say was that, if you only ever get your information from SDN, you will be led to believe that the only residents who ever lose their positions are models of medical knowledge and bedside manner and are fired by malicious PDs. This is clearly not the case, nor is it the case that every resident who gets fired/non-renewed is the worst physician to ever walk the planet. Do both of those situations exist? Probably. But the vase majority are in the middle ground there.

 

[Top Gun]

Its people like you that makes me very very angry. By resorting to the lines of "it is so rare for a resident to be fired....", the blame is always put on the resident, not the director.

When I told my contract won't be renewed - I thought the same thing, except when I got onto SDN and it was so common to see such injustice done on residents. The fact that these PDs/attendings such malicious intent and personalities even exists really scares me on what kind of people get to become physicians.

Jeez, no need to throw a hissy fit. 🙄 They weren't saying that to you personally. We know very little about your situation, so we can't really judge anyway.

The point was that there are some residents who get fired, or whom don't have their contracts renewed, who think that their dismissal is unjustified. The truth is that many of these residents have very little insight into their own behaviors, which may have at least partially contributed to the dismissal. Are there unjustified firings or contract non-renewals? Sure there are, but they don't tend to be very common.

So whenever a resident posts on here complaining about an unjust termination, there usually tends to be more to the story. We only get the resident's side. We usually won't hear anything from the program's point of view.

Anyway, as I said, we don't know the full story on your termination, so we can't say for sure whether its unjustified or not.

 

[Snotrat]

With all due respect, "chill the f**k out now" is more than a little harsh, considering that the poster is in an extremely unfortunate situation. Without knowing anything more about the reasons behind the contract non-renewal (i.e. the strength or lack thereof of evidence for or against the resident's performance), a bit more compassion might be in order. Just saying'

 

[Snotrat]

I also wanted to add to the above - there is likely a fair amount of self-selection going on. Residents who feel that the reasons behind their termination or non-renewal are vague/unjust/capricious are the ones who post here asking for advice. I'm sure there are quite a few residents that are fired for reasons that we can all agree are justified: substance abuse, dereliction of patient care duties, theft, harassment, dealing narcotics, and on and on. Any of these (and many others) would be a firing offense. Nobody is arguing that. Such residents are probably quite aware that their firing was justified, and they're not going to post here on SDN.

 

[gutonc]

With all due respect, "chill the f**k out now" is more than a little harsh, considering that the poster is in an extremely unfortunate situation. Without knowing anything more about the reasons behind the contract non-renewal (i.e. the strength or lack thereof of evidence for or against the resident's performance), a bit more compassion might be in order. Just saying'

With all due respect (none), you too need to go back and bone up on your reading comprehension skills. Let me break this whole thing down for you in simple terms...

I responded to something mlw03 posted and said, "yes, it's pretty easy to not renew a contract, and BTW, there may be a bias in the people who complaint about getting fired on SDN, just like there's a reporting bias in Step scores on SDN."

ClaudioWhatevero9999 then said "I hate you, you suck, I got fired for no reason, also, I hate you."

I told ClaudioYabbaDabbaDoo12345 to chill the f**k out and go back and read what I wrote because it had nothing to do with him/her/it.

Then you came along and told me I was a jerk and then repeated, verbatim, what I had said in my two previous posts. Go ahead, go back and read them and see what you think, I'll wait.

Now read it again, remember, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.


And...discussion over.

 

[adagio]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudio_Abbado

 

[Snotrat]

With all due respect (none), you too need to go back and bone up on your reading comprehension skills. Let me break this whole thing down for you in simple terms...

I responded to something mlw03 posted and said, "yes, it's pretty easy to not renew a contract, and BTW, there may be a bias in the people who complaint about getting fired on SDN, just like there's a reporting bias in Step scores on SDN."

ClaudioWhatevero9999 then said "I hate you, you suck, I got fired for no reason, also, I hate you."

I told ClaudioYabbaDabbaDoo12345 to chill the f**k out and go back and read what I wrote because it had nothing to do with him/her/it.

Then you came along and told me I was a jerk and then repeated, verbatim, what I had said in my two previous posts. Go ahead, go back and read them and see what you think, I'll wait.

Now read it again, remember, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit.


And...discussion over.

Wow, now who's throwing the hissy fit? And you're swearing at me? Really? Did you even READ my post about self-selection? Of course not. It's your reading comprehension skills that suck royally, my friend. You are too busy making ad hominem attacks.

Now, the discussion is over. Your dismissive attitude towards me and others is going to go a very long way towards winning friends and influencing people.

Welcome to my blocked list. You will definitely respond to my response with further incendiary remarks, but rest assured that I will never read it. Peace and joy be with you.

 

[smq123]

Wow, now who's throwing the hissy fit? And you're swearing at me? Really?

Gutonc sounds like one of "those" attendings too - ones with difficult personalities and big egos that is out to destroy competent residents with a bright future's career.

Ok, a few points.

Snotrat, I don't see where he "swore" at you. "Jerk" is generally not considered a swear word.

Claudio, that is supremely unfair of you to decide that he's a difficult, egotistical, malignant attending, just based on a few messages that he's posted on an internet forum (that you seem to have mis-understood, anyway). Plus, it doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Finally, please refrain from turning threads into "LET'S JUMP ON THIS ONE GUY!" bashing sessions. If you two can't stop yourselves from doing that, then the thread is going to be closed.

Anyway. If we can all return to the original topic of discussion, great. If not, then, well, too bad.

 

[adagio]

Gutonc means well. He is a tough guy, but has a good heart, and rendered good advice to lots of people around the forum. He might strike you as a cynic, but he is a practical realist lol

I understand why you guys are frustrated. Please move forward, don't let anything hinder you. Just get the best of possible worlds out of your situation, and you will be fine ...

Life is a continuous struggle, it just happens that you are facing one, of many yet to come, maelstrom in your life.

We all do mistakes. and we will keep doing them until we dont.

Life is a road, its not a goal, move forward, do not let anything hinder you. who knows? you might be cursing this situation now, but you might find that it happened for a reason.

The dalai lama said: One should worry about no problem; if it has a solution there is no need to worry about it, and if it doesnt have a solution there is no point worrying about it.

Dum Spiro Spero: While I breathe, I hope ...

Never lose hope in a better tomorrow. You will have it. and You will succeed.

 

[member0007]

how the hell did i miss this muckraking????

basically, libel and slander is the river that flows freely and cleanses the undesirable physician from a hospital. it's important to find a trustworthy lawyer to help you. the hospitals have too much clout and engages in all sorts of illegal things and i had a lawyer say to me that the hospital can do whatever they want!!! seriously, no!

the hospital is an employer, just like any other, and what is more legally binding, they have a duty of care to the residents that match into their program. if you have a contract, its also against the law to breach the contract. if it comes down to, lets say, a pd or some arbitrarily assigned individual (the new mystical position that was suddenly created) who is saying that contrary stuff, and it's after years of hard work and dedication to the twilight zone that you were matched into, it should be held to the strictest standards because you deserve the opportunity to your career, just like the pd and that new guy in the newly created mystical position.
i think you should ask for transfer to another program.

 

[king@queens]

What was their reason to fire you?