rotation after interview reject? PDs please comment also.

[AspiringDoc2014]

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How unprofessional is it to cancel a rotation 5 days before the start date and try to find something else? Do programs change their mind and take you/ interview you if they rejected the residency application before the rotation? This is a place I wanted to go to for residency, unfortunately got a rotation not early enough. so I ended up applying before the rotation. Just received a letter that they are n't offering me an interview. Is there any advantage to continuing the rotation there at this point? I appreciate your opinion.

 

[IMPD]

How unprofessional is it to cancel a rotation 5 days before the start date and try to find something else? Do programs change their mind and take you/ interview you if they rejected the residency application before the rotation? This is a place I wanted to go to for residency, unfortunately got a rotation not early enough. so I ended up applying before the rotation. Just received a letter that they are n't offering me an interview. Is there any advantage to continuing the rotation there at this point? I appreciate your opinion.

Reasons for interview rejections are manifold. So.....there is a possibility that a strong performance on a rotation might get you a sponsor who could take the case to the PD. On the other hand, if there is a killer problem in your application you could walk on water and the PD would not change their mind.

Since you are *not* likely to get the reason why you were rejected, it's a big gamble of time/effort.

If this place is the dream of dreams and hope of hopes it might be worth it. It is also worth asking this same question directly to the PD/PC. Again, very unlikely to get a useful response, but on the off chance it save you some heartbreak or give you something to work towards.

Overall, I would guess the chance of success here is very low, somewhere between 1-5%.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Often times the people who schedule visiting students are not in communication with the PD/PC. You may have been rejected for interview without them even knowing that you are going to rotate at the program.

 

[AspiringDoc2014]

If in fact there is a chance the scheduler for rotation doesn't know about my application and vice versa, should I email the PD now? And again, would I say that my reason for rotating there is to evaluate the program and also for them to see my performance - but would consider not coming if there is no chance? I am not sure how to phrase it so they understand exactly what I am saying but it is said tastefully and in an acceptable manner. There is no killer problem on my profile. I would say slightly above average on most things and very good step 2s. My evaluations are all impressive.

 

[foodle]

If you really want to go there for residency, your best chance of resurrecting your candidacy is to rotate there. If you do a good job, there's still plenty of time for them to squeeze in an interview before the rank lists are due.

Canceling on them 5 days prior to when you're going to show up is not going to make you any friends.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

If in fact there is a chance the scheduler for rotation doesn't know about my application and vice versa, should I email the PD now? And again, would I say that my reason for rotating there is to evaluate the program and also for them to see my performance - but would consider not coming if there is no chance? I am not sure how to phrase it so they understand exactly what I am saying but it is said tastefully and in an acceptable manner. There is no killer problem on my profile. I would say slightly above average on most things and very good step 2s. My evaluations are all impressive.

I don't know that there is a good way to say what you want to say. If you really want to go to this program, I say do the away rotation and hope you can really impress them, then set up a meeting with the PD near the end of the rotation to discuss the situation.

 

[AspiringDoc2014]

Thank you. Sounds like a good advice.

 

[Ronin786]

On the flip side, you might want to see if you can improve your odds at another institution that you have on your list.

My opinion would be if this is your dream program then go for it, if not then try setting something up at another place you would be comfortable with. Obviously canceling so close to the rotation isn't a good thing, but they've already rejected your interview offer so you're not losing anything else.

 

[foodle]

Obviously canceling so close to the rotation isn't a good thing, but they've already rejected your interview offer so you're not losing anything else.

Medicine is a small profession. Burning bridges is never good. You might want to go there for fellowship or for an attending position.

 

[RangerBob]

It sounds like you're in a tough situation. I agree with the others--if this is a top choice, go and impress the faculty. In most specialties you meet the PD while you're rotating at an away institution.

I'd recommend calling the program coordinator at the institution and just asking them for a friendly clarification, and let them know you're going to be rotating there.

One thing you need to consider is that if you do cancel your interview with this short of notice, typically the visiting school will inform your school, and you may have to meet with your dean--it's considered unprofessional to cancel an away rotation without at least one month's notice. It also makes it less likely for the visiting program to accept students from your institution in the future.

Still, if you feel there's no hope, perhaps you should talk with one of your deans for some advice. I'd recommend doing that and contacting the visiting program's program coordinator (by phone) ASAP.

 

[3882370]

Email the PD, explain why you are particularly interested in their program, that you will be there for the rotation and hope that they might reconsider your application or, if there is a cancellation spot, allow you to come last minute because you can be there immediately for the interview. Then impress the hell out of the faculty and residents you're working with, mentioning your motivation to attend this program. The faculty and residents will let the PD know and this will go a long way in improving your chances. PDs appreciate personal recommendations from residents and faculty they know. With hundreds of applications people get cut cut simply because of some numerical threshold, but exceptions are made for personal referrals.

 

[drcrispmd]

Keep the rotation. At a lot of programs, the PD's are not the ones doing the filtering. Do the rotation and work your donkey's behind off. Show up early, know your patients inside and out. About halfway through your rotation ask for a meeting with the PD. Tell him you are really enjoying being there and would love to do residency, but unfortunately you did not receive an interview. If they like you and you have been doing a great job, you will likely get an interview. Also, make sure the residents are good with you too. Casually mention that you would love to go there for residency but you did not get an interview. If the residents like you and think you would be good to work with they may talk with the residency coordinator or PD themselves. At my program, I knew a classmate that initially did not get an interview at my program. I talked with the residency coordinator and was able to get him an interview. We have 3 family med residencies at different locations under the same university but the department of FM is the ones who decides who interviews where, not our PD.

 

[Law2Doc]

On the flip side, you might want to see if you can improve your odds at another institution that you have on your list. ....

AGreed. if you can set up a different away rotation on the fly, that would be the smart move. If not, do the best you can at this one and see if you can charm the PD.

 

[qrstuv]

A couple of thoughts:
1. This program may have cut-off scores, and if you don't meet those, you're not getting an interview regardless of how good you are on the rotation. This happens all the time: I've known of people who were awesome on rotations but have been told straight up by PDs at their home programs that by the numbers they will not match, period, at their home institution. If that's the case for this program, you're wasting your time.
2. Everyone is constantly talking about burning bridges and fellowship and what-not. When I think of burning bridges, I think of "cussing everyone out and telling them where to go", not "canceling an away because it doesn't make sense to do it if you're not going to get in". Do you really think egos are so fragile that they're going to hold a 3+ year grudge against you for not doing an away rotation when it doesn't make sense? Heck, they probably have a wait list of people wanting to do a rotation there. And if their egos ARE that fragile, is that really somewhere you'd want to work/be a fellow at anyways?

My advice...talk to your adviser, possibly your home program PD, and ask what they think you should do. I'd be inclined to e-mail the PD of that program and explain the situation, and see if there's a chance. If there's no chance to get an interview, why waste your time/money? And if they can't understand that, then they're not the kind of people you'd wanted to be associated with, ever.

 

[gutonc]

A couple of thoughts:
1. This program may have cut-off scores, and if you don't meet those, you're not getting an interview regardless of how good you are on the rotation. This happens all the time: I've known of people who were awesome on rotations but have been told straight up by PDs at their home programs that by the numbers they will not match, period, at their home institution. If that's the case for this program, you're wasting your time.
2. Everyone is constantly talking about burning bridges and fellowship and what-not. When I think of burning bridges, I think of "cussing everyone out and telling them where to go", not "canceling an away because it doesn't make sense to do it if you're not going to get in". Do you really think egos are so fragile that they're going to hold a 3+ year grudge against you for not doing an away rotation when it doesn't make sense? Heck, they probably have a wait list of people wanting to do a rotation there. And if their egos ARE that fragile, is that really somewhere you'd want to work/be a fellow at anyways?

My advice...talk to your adviser, possibly your home program PD, and ask what they think you should do. I'd be inclined to e-mail the PD of that program and explain the situation, and see if there's a chance. If there's no chance to get an interview, why waste your time/money? And if they can't understand that, then they're not the kind of people you'd wanted to be associated with, ever.

This is actually the only post here I really agree with (although IMPD got it too). Realistically speaking, you're not getting a spot at that program, away rotation or not. You might get a courtesy interview if you do the rotation there but that's all it's going to be...a courtesy. If it's in a cool place or you think you'll really learn something, well, nothing much to lose. But if you can do something else for the month, do it.

 

[dragonfly99]

I kind of agree w/the previous post.
I don't think that most attendings and program directors "care" that much that some 4th year med student cancels a rotation. If it's some super small residency like neurosurgery, perhaps they may "care" a tiny bit, but in general they are too busy and have way too many things to do to worry about what some med student did or didn't do. Burning bridges I would consider to be something more along the lines of being rude to someone on the phone, or saying something really arrogant about the program, residents or faculty while you are rotating there.

It seems your chances to match there are not good. I would consider asking a trusted faculty member @your home institution for advice, or to have him/her call someone over @this residency and see if there is any point in your rotating there (in terms of it changing the program's mind about interviewing you). If it's some awesome place where you think you'll learn a lot, you could choose to keep the rotation anyway, and just work really hard...it might be too late to set up an "away" rotation somewhere else anyway. I think if this is some ubercompetitive specialty with few spots, and you initially got no interview, then not high probability at all to match there, even if you somehow get an interview...it would likely be out of politeness/courtesy. If this is something like IM or maybe even anesthesia, or general surgery, it's possible they might change their minds if you really wow them, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[colbgw02]

Yeah, unless you have a love affair with this program (I.e. your spouse will divorce you unless you match in this city), then you should cut your losses and move on.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'm going to disagree, slightly.

If the rest of your application is simply not competitive, then I agree you won't get an interview no matter what you do (or any interview you do get will be a "courtesy" interview, and they won't rank you). But, if you're borderline, it's possible that this could push you over the edge. There's no way to know. I highly doubt you'll be able to set up a rotation elsewhere in short order, although you could try.

I say this because I've had this situation both ways. Someone doing an away rotation who wasn't invited, and would never be ranked. Someone doing an away rotation that was rejected before I knew they would be doing a rotation with us, then interviewed, and matched.

 

[colbgw02]

APD - how does it happen that a student scheduled to rotate gets rejected for an interview? I mean, I understand that rotations have to be scheduled before applications are submitted, but it seems like one of two things would then happen in the case of a borderline applicant: A) the applicant would be rejected but also advised to rotate elsewhere as they have no chance of matching or B) an interview rejection would be withheld based on the knowledge that the applicant would be visiting and would therefore have a chance to "earn" an interview. The OP's scenario sounds like the left hand isn't talking with the right hand.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The student office manages away rotations. They are completely separate from the residency office at my institution, so I often don't know that an applicant is scheduled for an away rotation.

 

[colbgw02]

The student office manages away rotations. They are completely separate from the residency office at my institution, so I often don't know that an applicant is scheduled for an away rotation.

But you could find out before sending out a rejection, no?

 

[gutonc]

But you could find out before sending out a rejection, no?

Right. Because if there's one thing a PD has time for during application season, it's clearing several hundred rejections with the clerkship director's office.

Also, in the case of IM, that would mean repeating the process with all the subspecialty offices as well. Not happening.

 

[colbgw02]

For one, it wouldn't be several hundred. Just cross-reference the upcoming rotating students with the rejection list. And because we're only talking about students who submit their application before rotating, I'm guessing it's at most a few dozen, and that's probably an overestimation.

Secondly, it's not like the PD has to do this himself. It's clerical work that could done by anyone. Someone savvy with Excel could probably write a simple equation to do the cross-referencing in seconds.

Lastly, no one is suggesting that the PD 'clear' a rejection with anyone, which implies someone from the clerkship office has input into the decision.

I just think that doing an audition rotation is a big commitment from a medical student. And - given that it would take seemingly little effort to do so - it would be nice to take into account that a student has made that commitment before finalizing his rejection. If there is no chance that he would ever get an interview, then so be it. But if there's a chance that a stellar rotation could earn an interview, then just sit on the rejection for awhile.

 

[Gastrapathy]

The decision should be based on what is best for you. No one cares if a student shows up. I'd try to find another away but go to this one if you can't.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

For one, it wouldn't be several hundred. Just cross-reference the upcoming rotating students with the rejection list. And because we're only talking about students who submit their application before rotating, I'm guessing it's at most a few dozen, and that's probably an overestimation.

Secondly, it's not like the PD has to do this himself. It's clerical work that could done by anyone. Someone savvy with Excel could probably write a simple equation to do the cross-referencing in seconds.

Lastly, no one is suggesting that the PD 'clear' a rejection with anyone, which implies someone from the clerkship office has input into the decision.

I just think that doing an audition rotation is a big commitment from a medical student. And - given that it would take seemingly little effort to do so - it would be nice to take into account that a student has made that commitment before finalizing his rejection. If there is no chance that he would ever get an interview, then so be it. But if there's a chance that a stellar rotation could earn an interview, then just sit on the rejection for awhile.

They probably could do all that. But the question is do they care to?

 

[thefritz]

Often times the people who schedule visiting students are not in communication with the PD/PC.

I would be shocked if this is ever not the case. The last away I showed up to, the department didn't even know I was coming.

Since you are already rejected at this point, I would either bail on the away or if you really want to go there, email the PD and say how much you were looking forward to doing an 'audition' (use this word) and that you were already rejected and ask him what he would recommend doing since you now don't have a spot to audition for. Leave it open ended and hope for the best.

 

[JediZero]

First off, I would not cancel until you have something else lined up. Bird in the hand and all that.

The rest has been said, but bears repeating:

Don't burn bridges. Could look bad, and people talk.

I do think PDs and rotation coordinators talk in programs where auditions are highly valued (at least in my experience, which is with DO programs where they always are). Had an interview where rotation dates were slapped right next to our pictures on the name tag.

That said, ask the coordinator about your situation. If they hadn't realized you were rotating, that may change things. Just keep in mind many programs explicitly state that rotation =/= interview.

Good luck!

 

[cognitus]

How unprofessional is it to cancel a rotation 5 days before the start date and try to find something else? Do programs change their mind and take you/ interview you if they rejected the residency application before the rotation? This is a place I wanted to go to for residency, unfortunately got a rotation not early enough. so I ended up applying before the rotation. Just received a letter that they are n't offering me an interview. Is there any advantage to continuing the rotation there at this point? I appreciate your opinion.

Not sure what your decision ended up being. However, I did a rotation with a residency program after getting rejected there. I impressed my sponsor enough for him to speak to the PD, and I got an interview. I know I'm only one example, but it worked for me.