"Safe" MD/PhD Programs?

[NR3A]

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Hi guys,

I just had a quick question about some MD/PhD programs. I think I am a fairly strong applicant generally (3.91 GPA, 33R--this could hurt me, lots of research experience (bench and clinical) with a summer of physician shadowing), but I am trying to decide on some "safer" (as "safe" as any dual degree program can be) MD/PhD programs. At the moment my list looks like one that could easily end in failure, simply because I am drawn to schools with the best research programs.

Refer to this thread for a little more in-depth info on my experiences/stats: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=821378&highlight=nr3a

I think I would be fine with fleshing out my application for another year or so (or getting that MCAT up higher) if I don't get into a top program, but in case I change my mind I want a few schools where I could be more competitive rather than the crap shoot that any top school is for any candidate.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Lil Mick]

Your research experience and MCAT are low for a top school, especially in combination. Apply to the schools of your dreams and try to look for MD/PhD programs with strong research in your preferred PhD area. If you try to match your interests with the school's strengths, schools may be more willing to look past the MCAT and average research experience. Also, make sure that the programs are funded (many non-MSTPs have funded slots, but not all students and not at all schools or in all parts of the program).

That being said, MSTP perks are basically the funding and no payback, as well as having more students in the program. However, research is very specialized, and a good PI and department in your area at a lower tier school will better prepare you for your career than a top MSTP that doesn't have much research in your area or has PIs who is too busy to help you develop your skills...

 

[NR3A]

Thanks for the response. Here's what my list is looking like at the moment:

Columbia
GW
Georgetown
Harvard
Mt. Sinai
NYU
Tufts
UCSF
Cornell
BU
Stony Brook
UCSD
U of Rochester

I still think I don't have enough schools I have a good chance of being accepted to. For the record I'm looking to get a PhD in neuroscience.

 

[Lil Mick]

Try checking out some schools in the South and Midwest (MUSC, Wake Forest, Alabama, Miami, Tennesse, MCW, UIC). Some of them are a little less competitive and have strong neuro programs. Also, some MD/PhD (non-MSTP and MSTP) programs in the East have solid programs (Yeshiva, VCU, UVA, U Maryland). You would probably be a good fit for some of those programs (average MCAT 34-35 most years, gpa 3.8ish).

 

[NR3A]

Yea I actually have Yeshiva up there, just forgot to write it! Thanks again.

 

[K31]

Yeah, definitely ought to broaden the geographic area a bit. There's a whole big country between the coasts, and even some cities. With a below-average MCAT and average research experience (anything you do before college doesn't count) you can't just apply to NYC, Boston, and Cali schools and have a good chance of getting in.

And re the DC programs--I know Georgetown doesn't fund you for the MD years, and I don't know if GW does either.

ETA: Not trying to be harsh--it's just that with your research experience and MCAT (which, let's face it, is well below the average for most MSTPs) likely wouldn't get you an interview at my program, which, while an MSTP, is neither one of the USNWR top 10 research schools nor in one of the cool locations.

 

[QofQuimica]

Agree with broadening your geographic area; I don't think your stats will be a huge issue if you choose your programs wisely. Mick's list would be a good place to start looking. Best of luck to you. 🙂

 

[NR3A]

Thanks for the response K31. I'm in no way offended--the MCAT score came as a bit of a shock! As far as funding goes I do not have a problem with unfunded programs, and this is the case with both Georgetown and GW.

I think I am also going to add UMD to the list, as (according to their website) my MCAT is about their average and my GPA is higher.

 

[Fencer]

NR3A,

Here is the NRC list for Neuroscience:
http://chronicle.com/article/NRC-Rankings-Overview-/124747/

It is based upon information collected around 2002-2006,then, they took 4 years to massage the numbers and released them in 2010.

There are two scores, and each with a range (high - low). I personally think that the R score is more accurate, but these are approximations. The main thing for a PhD is finding a right mentor. Programs with high R scores often have more areas of expertise and more mentors. However, you might find the best mentor for you at a program that is considered "lesser" in ranking. In the end, you need to maximize your opportunities, but consider broadening your geographical search.

My own program is not listed because of the methodology used in the NRC study. We have about 80 faculty and our MD/PhD program is fully funded for the 7-8 years at a competitive stipend level.

 

[BarmyArmy]

For neurosci, pitt-cmu has a pretty strong program.

 

[Fencer]

I sit at a NIH study section that reviews F31s from MD/PhDs (we used to review F30s). I will rotate off next year after 4 years of service. Students at Pitt/CM submit every year several applications. It is a strong Neuroscience MD/PhD program. Other programs that send strong applications on regular basis are Emory, Penn, WUSTL, etc.

Funding rate for F-30/31 applications from MD/PhDs is about 30%. My program has 43%. It is all about mentoring...

However, the OP was asking for Neuroscience MD/PhD programs that were safety for a MCAT of 33. Emory, Penn, WUSTL, and Pitt are not a SAFETY for that score. I already PM the OP.

 

[Neuronix]

(we used to review F30s).

Boo.

 

[PfNO22]

I sit at a NIH study section that reviews F31s from MD/PhDs (we used to review F30s). I will rotate off next year after 4 years of service. Students at Pitt/CM submit every year several applications. It is a strong Neuroscience MD/PhD program. Other programs that send strong applications on regular basis are Emory, Penn, WUSTL, etc.

Funding rate for F-30/31 applications from MD/PhDs is about 30%. My program has 43%. It is all about mentoring...

However, the OP was asking for Neuroscience MD/PhD programs that were safety for a MCAT of 33. Emory, Penn, WUSTL, and Pitt are not a SAFETY for that score. I already PM the OP.

How much does the applicant's home institution play into the decision to award a grant?

 

[Fencer]

How much does the applicant's home institution play into the decision to award a grant?

Home institution is examined within Environment. Environment is not about the home institution, but the quality of the mentoring team (i.e.: mentor and surrounding labs). Institution plays very little role.

Applicant, Mentor, Science and Tranining plan are typically more important in the mind of the reviewer.


Regarding Neuronix's comment, NINDS decided to stop F30 support and switch to F31 because of the number of prior awardees not ending up within Neuro-fields.

 

[Neuronix]

Regarding Neuronix's comment, NINDS decided to stop F30 support and switch to F31 because of the number of prior awardees not ending up within Neuro-fields.

I find that incredibly short-sighted. Neuroscience applies to almost every field within medicine. I received my NINDS F30 to do neuroimaging, and I still perform neuroimaging research within the context of radiology and radiation oncology applications to numerous neurological disorders and cancers. Just because I decided not to persue residency in neurology or psychiatry does not mean I am not using the training the NINDS funded towards solving neurological diseases.

 

[Fencer]

I find that incredibly short-sighted. Neuroscience applies to almost every field within medicine. I received my NINDS F30 to do neuroimaging, and I still perform neuroimaging research within the context of radiology and radiation oncology applications to numerous neurological disorders and cancers. Just because I decided not to persue residency in neurology or psychiatry does not mean I am not using the training the NINDS funded towards solving neurological diseases.

You can always email the NINDS Director of Training, Career Development and Workforce Diversity to express your views:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/find_people/ninds/index.htm

 

[ClarinetGeek]

You can always email the NINDS Director of Training, Career Development and Workforce Diversity to express your views:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/find_people/ninds/index.htm

I have meet and seen Stephen Korn present on funding opportunities with NINDS multiple times. Yes NINDS no long has a F30 line; however, MD/PhD students can apply for F31. My understanding behind the decision to end the F30 line lies behind the institutes decisions to limit funding to MD/PhD to their pre-doctoral training (aka PhD training) instead of funding MD/PhD students when they return to clinic (3rd/4th years of medical school). With NIH continuing to have limited funds, they felt is more important to fund more students while in their PhD then fund fewer students and have funds being used to pay for medical school tuition. To be honest, this makes sense. I think his overal desire is for students to be funded with an F31 earlier in their training (at the start of their PhD work); thus, I think there is a great emphasis on the individual and training plan and less on the research. In addition, I think he desires for students to be funded for 2 years only instead of keeping funding until you graduate; again in effort for more people to have received funds. As students, the drawback is losing the perks when you return to medical school (e.g. 4200 in supplemental funds for travel, etc.). Although I am not entirely clear, I think MD/PhD student and PhD-only students are considered separately despite applying to F31. This was my impression but I could be wrong on that factoid.

 

[ClarinetGeek]

Ok now that I read the thread more thoroughly, I see that Fencer reviews F30/F31; thus, I will bow to his expertise on this subject. I guess I just reiterated the pitch from Stephen Korn on the subject. Take it for what you may.

 

[ClarinetGeek]

I would recommend Iowa. Some interesting neuroscience research ranging from pain, fear, neuroimaging, etc. Our neuro students are very successful with F30/F31s. With your stats, I think you would be considered a strong applicant at Iowa. Please PM if you have more specific questions about Iowa.

 

[Fencer]

.. I think his overal desire is for students to be funded with an F31 earlier in their training (at the start of their PhD work); thus, I think there is a great emphasis on the individual and training plan and less on the research.

... I think MD/PhD student and PhD-only students are considered separately despite applying to F31. This was my impression but I could be wrong on that factoid.

You are correct on both assertions. We are now reviewing applications earlier in the training cycle, and MD/PhD candidates have a different study section than PhD candidates (accomplished by using the correct RFA).

The main reason of the transition from F30 to F31 has to do with the cost. Many of the private med schools have huge differentials between MS and GS tuition and fees.

 

[ClarinetGeek]

Glad I wasn't completely off. Thanks Fencer.