Sanity check re debt, etc.

[flyingbridge]

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Thanks to any and all who posted in response to my first-flight post re Drexel's post-bacc pre-med program. I have another topic of concern though and I want to put it out here... it's MONEY. Sorry in advance if this has already been fielded elsewhere; if you want to post a link to any discussion you may think will help, please do so.

But to continue...
I make just over $90k/year currently as a computer programmer in the D.C. area and as jobs go, it's pretty cushy, even for a programmer. 🙂 But seriously, my interest in medicine is not associated at all with gettin' rich; if I wanted to do that I would spend all my energy buying and selling properties here in no. VA and just make a life of it. No, I want to pursue medicine because basically I want to do something very significant with my life and for humanity; medicine seems to me the one thing that has done more for humanity in the last 150 years than any other profession. Not until medicine became a science did cures and treatments become reliable and predictable. Yes, drs. get it wrong sometimes and there are many preventable injuries and deaths each year due to dr. errors that shouldn't be "simply tolerated as the cost of doing business". All I can say is, this is a lot better state of affairs than it was 200 years back when drs. were still using bleedings and leeches for treating ailments. We've come a long way, baby. I have my life I am sure to owe to doctors due to injuries or conditions that would have killed me had I lived just 100 years ago. Without antibiotics for example, most of us reading this would not be doing so. We never would have been born or would not have made it past age 12. I think it's fair to say that most of us owe our lives to modern medicine. Why wouldn't I want to be part of it?

Sorry, I digress. 🙂 I like comp sci. work well enough but I have a marked and uncanny knack for understanding physical and medical concepts and remembering long Latin words. 😉 I also like to see people's overall suffering reduced. [I would go for being a Buddhist monk and meditating all day if I actually thought it would relieve suffering but I am not convinced it does.] I harbor no delusions either about the path to it - lots of studying, giving up the hobbies I have for at least 5 years (by which time I will have found new interests I am sure), getting much less exercise than I am used to getting, etc. I will endure nastiness from med. profs and attendings, sideways and direct comments about my ineptitude and foolishness if I fail to answer questions just the way a prof/.dr. wants me to answer them, dealing with people freaking out about this or that and blaming it all on me (comp. sci. has prepared me well for that part of things, believe me), long nights, weird situations, looking at a lot of pain and suffering, etc., etc., etc... the list goes on. I would have to sell my house and move back up to Philly if I went to the DU post-bacc pre-med program. I would have to say good-bye to coworkers and friends here in D.C. who I have made over the past 6 years since moving down here. I would be returning to Philly, a nice town yes, but not a new one (that offers some comfort; no new city to get used to). I would need to find a new house to live in that would also be acceptable to my cats. 🙂 In short, it's a lot to do.

I still have $14k in student loan debt and about $10k in savings. I have a lot more in my 401(k) but I hesitate to borrow from it, though I guess it's better to pay myself back with interest than to pay back a bank with interest. I have a little credit card debt, not much, less than $2k, so it's manageable. Not married, no kids, no ex-wives, either, house has appreciated well in value since buying, so I should be able to get at least $70k from it in equity when I sell, though I don't know if I will be able to keep it, heading into the Philly housing market. As to age, I am 36, almost 37 years old.

So my question for anyone interested is this: Even with your strong desire to go into this field, how are you feeling about the financial debt you will incur getting the degree and experience you need to get into it? If you are already there with the debt, how does it feel and what do you think of things? Had you considered anything less than an M.D. as well, such as becoming a physician's or surgical assistant (one person, a research Ph.D./M.D. I know who works at a university after having 10 years' clinical experience, in fact, told me that it may make more sense to become a P.A. or S.A. - get to help people but not deal with the liability issues, and can get to actually practicing in two years rather than in 4 or 5, and you won't be, as she said, "in $1/2 million in debt, either!").

Thoughts, folks?

 

[Febrifuge]

Eh. You're doing exceedingly well, and you know that. I have more in debt from my undergrad than I make in a year (the loans are just less than $40k). I lived off my loans when I finished undergrad because that's when I got divorced. I had no savings to speak of and no 401(k) whatsoever when that was fresh, and I've re-established quietly, but not enough to really get things moving. I'm sure if I were devoted heart and soul to my career, I'd be okay. But that's the thing... as I'm sure you also know.

So even without being financially five-by-five as you are, I'm doing something similar, and for similar reasons. I may be crazy, and I'm no role model, but yes it can totally be done. I'd love to be in your shoes.

Debt sucks, though, and the point about PA is a darn fine one.

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Wow, it's really nice to see other folks considering and balancing the difficulties and sacrifices that med school poses.

I'll be 35 this spring, made a lot of money during the dotcom times, own a 2-family house in boston (and a second one that we're selling now), two baby boys, wife with great job, and still feel the same sense of "this is all there is". In that sense, feeling unsatisfied with my career and looking at the rest of my life to live, 35 seems very young; looking at the sacrifices I'll have to make with my family, the inherent humiliation that med school entails, the debt, and the necessary lifestyle changes, I too wonder if a different path (PA) may better suit my desire to make my life contribution more meaningful.

As I write this I'm starting my final semester at Umass Boston (after a 10 year hiatus working as a technology producer for major broadcasters and tech start-ups)--i'll graduate with a 3.5 in polisci and then, having taken NO sciences, will begin a post-bacc. Right now, I'm chasing my two year old while my wife and I yell back and forth talking about moving to Vermont for Bennington's (1 year starting this june; or possibly 1 year starting next june) program or staying in Boston and doing Harvard's post-bacc (2 years beginning this september). Be thankful that you have cats...they make major life-changing conversations much easier!

Bennington, whose curriculum I love and environment and philosophy really resonate with my way of learning is ALSO a huge compromise because we'd move there which would give my wife (and soon to be sole wage earner) a crazy commute back and forth to Boston. HArvard is local program for me, but the 200 students in a class at night is not my idea of the perfect learning environment. My point is that, in my case, the sacrifices involve more than just the fiancial (though it's that too), but re-arranging life as we know it for a small family.

I guess, from my view of the world (a very lucky life with great family in a cool little boston neighborhood), I can appreciate both your apprehension and your enthusiasm about starting a post-bacc at our (tender) age and then the reality of pushing on to med school. But as a neighbor (and doctor) of mine says when I lament that I'll be a 42 year old resident, "well you're going to be 42 one way or the other."

As febrifuge mentioned, you are in a fortunate position to follow your dreams and you should feel fortunate still that you've recognized that you want something more from your life. Do it!

OckhamsRzr

 

[UnskinnyBop]

Dude, you may 90K writing code?! Ugh! I'm a programmer as well, and I make less than half that! (sigh) However, I'm only 23, so I guess it makes sense. I'm still jealous, though...

As for debt... it does seem like a lot. To me right now at 23, I'm still at the "pay for it later" stage of life, but I'm sure when I'm in my thirties I'll be like, "Why didn't I save...?" There is definitely stuff you can do, though. As I said about Drexel's post-bacc, you can work while you do it. I have a compsci degree as well, and I'm a programmer at Comcast. I'm sure you could work at Comcast or somewhere else around here, and you'd probably make a whole lot more than I do. I'm so jealous! But, I'm just like you and all I want to do is help people and alleviate suffering, so I don't mind being broke for a few years to go to med school.

Moving back to Philly won't be so bad! I spent my whole life in Philly, then went to Georgetown for college. I loved DC then, have lots of friends there- I thought I'd hate coming back to Philly. But it wasn't bad at all! I missed Tastykakes and Wawas when I was in DC. Also, in Philly, people don't stop you on the street and lecture you about voting or vegetarianism or fair trade coffee. It would suck to give up your house and all, but there are so many nice neighborhoods here. I don't know if I'd buy if I were you, since you might want to go elsewhere for med school... there are plenty of fabulous apartments right around where Drexel's post-bacc classes are (Hahnemann Hospital in center city). I live in a nice building with my cat, MCAT, and walk three blocks to work and two blocks to school.

It sounds like your heart's in the right place. Go for it! 👍

 

[ockhamsRzr]

I live in a nice building with my cat, MCAT, and walk three blocks to work and two blocks to school.
👍

Best cat name EVER!

 

[Febrifuge]

Wow, it's really nice to see other folks considering and balancing the difficulties and sacrifices that med school poses.

Hear hear. This place is a regular support group. In between snarking with EM residents (who confirm for me that the weisenheimers at work are actually par for the course) and commiserating with "old premeds" like y'all, I've been able to see some patterns and bounce around some ideas, leading to some decisions I feel good about. This place rocks.

Bennington, whose curriculum I love and environment and philosophy really resonate with my way of learning...

Did they tell you there's a pub on campus? And a decent fitness center, as well? Join us. Joooiinnnnn usssss... Just visit the campus. Bring the family along. Plenty of space to run around in. My gf (she's a programmer too!) is talking about getting her boss to let her telecommute for short stretches, so her visits can last weeks rather than days.

But as a neighbor (and doctor) of mine says when I lament that I'll be a 42 year old resident, "well you're going to be 42 one way or the other."

I'm starting to think this is one of the primal experiences, for the non-trad premed. I had this exact same experience (although it was an MS4 former gf who said it to me), and it does seem to be the trump card that finally sets many of us off.

To the OP: I think (although obviously I'm biased) that many people are going to get to their early- to mid-30s and take stock, deciding it's time to move up to the next level, move on to the next thing. Make the change that will let them live up to their potential. It's normal, it's healthy, it's important to follow it through.

And it has to be good for patients, if their doctor is someone who came in to the profession out of that process -- because I know there are plenty of residents and young staff docs who get to 35 and think the same thing. I'd bet someplace out there is a young radiologist who, odd as it might seem to us, would rather be writing code.

 

[cammy1313]

Hear hear. This place is a regular support group. In between snarking with EM residents (who confirm for me that the weisenheimers at work are actually par for the course) and commiserating with "old premeds" like y'all, I've been able to see some patterns and bounce around some ideas, leading to some decisions I feel good about. This place rocks.

Did they tell you there's a pub on campus? And a decent fitness center, as well? Join us. Joooiinnnnn usssss... Just visit the campus. Bring the family along. Plenty of space to run around in. My gf (she's a programmer too!) is talking about getting her boss to let her telecommute for short stretches, so her visits can last weeks rather than days.

I'm starting to think this is one of the primal experiences, for the non-trad premed. I had this exact same experience (although it was an MS4 former gf who said it to me), and it does seem to be the trump card that finally sets many of us off.

To the OP: I think (although obviously I'm biased) that many people are going to get to their early- to mid-30s and take stock, deciding it's time to move up to the next level, move on to the next thing. Make the change that will let them live up to their potential. It's normal, it's healthy, it's important to follow it through.

And it has to be good for patients, if their doctor is someone who came in to the profession out of that process -- because I know there are plenty of residents and young staff docs who get to 35 and think the same thing. I'd bet someplace out there is a young radiologist who, odd as it might seem to us, would rather be writing code.

Amazingly on target post, Febrifuge!!!

And just to ease the mind of the OP in whatever way I can, an MD spoke to us at one of my med school interviews and related the combined debt that he and his wife left school with: about $250,000!!! That's not the good news, the part that's supposed to inspire relief is that they were able to pay that entire sum off in about 8 years or so, which is really not long at all. So rest assured that you won't be paying your debt off for the rest of your life, there will be plenty of years to enjoy what you've worked so hard for. And besides, isn't your happiness worth any sum of money? I think so 🙂

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Damn you Febrifuge...stop making me think!

I had an appointment and tour with Dr. Foley for yesterday, but I cancelled after a ton of "whoa this is going to be a really hard transition" talk with my wife. The mail I wrote her was full of ambivalence and I ended up really asking for her opinion. She was, of course, hugely understanding and very supportive of my obligations.

I can't tell you how much I want to just pick up and move into the Bennington program and I am vacillating every hour of the past week or so between Harvard 1 year, Harvard 2 year, Bennington 1 year, Bennington 1 year next year, Bennington 2 year starting in the Fall...UGHHHH

My dream med school is Dartmouth and given that they like calc and biochem I lean ever closer to Bennington because their program rolls all that into the year. Even if I did Harvard in two years I'm still only covering the pre-req basics and fear that my top choices will be off my list or I'll lose another year (said with the fear that only an OLD premed understands).

Your point about the primal experience of the thrities (I think especially for folks who've had a good career run in their twenties and early thirties) is dead on. I call it the pre-midlife-crisis in that you take stock of what you've done and weigh it against a contented or hollow feeling in your soul. You mentioned potential and it's exactly that which I feel I've not lived up to even if most folks would envy the gigs I've had over the past 10 years...or what I "have" as a result if it. Somehow I just can't let my kids watch Dad go off to a job that means nothing and expect them to see that life is something to grabbed and squeezed for everything it can be.

Alas, this ping-pong ball premed needs to get back to his algebra review in order to place into the math class I need to graduate!

All thoughts appreciated...and yes thanks to an earlier post of yours I DO know there's a pub on campus!

Hear hear. This place is a regular support group. In between snarking with EM residents (who confirm for me that the weisenheimers at work are actually par for the course) and commiserating with "old premeds" like y'all, I've been able to see some patterns and bounce around some ideas, leading to some decisions I feel good about. This place rocks.

Did they tell you there's a pub on campus? And a decent fitness center, as well? Join us. Joooiinnnnn usssss... Just visit the campus. Bring the family along. Plenty of space to run around in. My gf (she's a programmer too!) is talking about getting her boss to let her telecommute for short stretches, so her visits can last weeks rather than days.

I'm starting to think this is one of the primal experiences, for the non-trad premed. I had this exact same experience (although it was an MS4 former gf who said it to me), and it does seem to be the trump card that finally sets many of us off.

To the OP: I think (although obviously I'm biased) that many people are going to get to their early- to mid-30s and take stock, deciding it's time to move up to the next level, move on to the next thing. Make the change that will let them live up to their potential. It's normal, it's healthy, it's important to follow it through.

And it has to be good for patients, if their doctor is someone who came in to the profession out of that process -- because I know there are plenty of residents and young staff docs who get to 35 and think the same thing. I'd bet someplace out there is a young radiologist who, odd as it might seem to us, would rather be writing code.

😕

 

[liverotcod]

You know, as the reality of starting med school in a few months has been setting in, I have been starting to have self-doubts and second thoughts. I really needed to read this thread, and I appreciate the great contributions.

FWIW, I will be 36 as an MS1. And I, too, found that hollow feeling in my mid-30s, after a first career in management and technology and marriage and two children. I just hope that the highly risky course I'm on leads to the fulfillment I need.

 

[ockhamsRzr]

Right back at ya Liv.

You've been an inspiration to me having documented your path from u-grad trials to med school. I don't think anyone who's familiar with your posts would have a single doubt about your success in the challenges ahead.

You'll smoke man!

Ockham

You know, as the reality of starting med school in a few months has been setting in, I have been starting to have self-doubts and second thoughts. I really needed to read this thread, and I appreciate the great contributions.

FWIW, I will be 36 as an MS1. And I, too, found that hollow feeling in my mid-30s, after a first career in management and technology and marriage and two children. I just hope that the highly risky course I'm on leads to the fulfillment I need.