SBRT for all the bone mets

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scarbrtj

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From MDACC. Guess we should SBRT most all the bone mets now?
Best of luck getting insurance companies to pay for it. Although academic centers probably have "an edge" in that regard.

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Haven't run the numbers.... I'm guessing 3-5 FX of sbrt is more expensive than 30/10 3D/igrt? Unlike lung where it's cheaper than hypofx imrt or 70/35
 
Haven't run the numbers.... I'm guessing 3-5 FX of sbrt is more expensive than 30/10 3D/igrt? Unlike lung where it's cheaper than hypofx imrt or 70/35
In general I can’t get 3D, certainly not IGRT, paid for bone mets. So I only ever use non-3D. Thus SBRT a lot more expensive. And five or more mets, I foresee 5 fx SBRT vs single fraction. $$$$. And then we can get off in weeds over vastly different SBRT rates depending on payor, or facility.
 
In general I can’t get 3D, certainly not IGRT, paid for bone mets. So I only ever use non-3D. Thus SBRT a lot more expensive. And five or more mets, I foresee 5 fx SBRT vs single fraction. $$$$. And then we can get off in weeds over vastly different SBRT rates depending on payor, or facility.
True. Cigna is the worst about that in my experience. You can always state the patient has an obese BMI or something to get it approved.

Or sometimes you can barter... Like I'll do it in one fx if you approve the igrt. It's really quite shameless and arbitrary at times. Nothing lacks EBM like insurance guidelines for what they will and will not authorize
 
Although academic centers probably have "an edge" in that regard.

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Not ours. In fact, it’s a bit of a problem for some academic centers. I do SBRT for bone or nodal mets for patients I really think may benefit. I can’t ever bill it as SBRT. If I’m lucky, I can get IMRT charges. Problem is, this won’t fly for patients on trial. If a patient is supposed to be treated with SBRT on trial I have to sign an SBRT script...but I can’t do that without billing for SBRT. So I can’t actually participate in some good trials even though I treat patients similarly off trial all the time. It’s frustrating.
 
For what is worth, I have done a lot of single fraction "sbrt" ty[ically 10-12 Gy with a conformal arc and .1 to .2 to block edge. Not even billed as 3D usually and plans dont really look any different than imrt in most cases. Very little planning time.
 
If you're treating oligometastatic disease then I think SBRT is reasonable. I do a CT simulation for all bone mets. There's usually a few OARs that can be contoured to justify 3D-CRT (shape AP fields with blocking kidneys for L-spine, for example, along with spinal cord obviously).


I'm not sure I see anything way off-base here. They recommend SBRT for limited indications.
 
If you're treating oligometastatic disease then I think SBRT is reasonable. I do a CT simulation for all bone mets. There's usually a few OARs that can be contoured to justify 3D-CRT (shape AP fields with blocking kidneys for L-spine, for example, along with spinal cord obviously).


I'm not sure I see anything way off-base here. They recommend SBRT for limited indications.
The way I would (and did) interpret this study is that if you have a painful bone met, and you want the most (likely) pain relief possible, SBRT should be used.
Oligometastatic or not, SBRT should (theoretically) be the tx of choice for bone mets now. As opposed to the 30/10 vs 8/1 trial, this trial showed "more superior" clinical outcomes. The only reason we tx a painful bony met is to... reduce pain. So if SBRT gets used for all bone mets, it would seem to me not way off-base, but a totally different base.
 
The way I would (and did) interpret this study is that if you have a painful bone met, and you want the most (likely) pain relief possible, SBRT should be used.
Oligometastatic or not, SBRT should (theoretically) be the tx of choice for bone mets now. As opposed to the 30/10 vs 8/1 trial, this trial showed "more superior" clinical outcomes. The only reason we tx a painful bony met is to... reduce pain. So if SBRT gets used for all bone mets, it would seem to me not way off-base, but a totally different base.

Evicore is all too happy to adopt cost saving ASTRO guidelines like breast hypofx. No peer to peer phone call needed to reduce fractions 🙂

But when it comes to increasing costs via studies showing the benefit of routine imrt in stage III nsclc.... Or pain relieving sbrt.... Well good luck on your P2P phone call.
 
Evicore is all too happy to adopt cost saving ASTRO guidelines like breast hypofx. No peer to peer phone call needed to reduce fractions 🙂

But when it comes to increasing costs via studies showing the benefit of routine imrt in stage III nsclc.... Or pain relieving sbrt.... Well good luck on your P2P phone call.
Haha amen to that. Re: IMRT for Stage III, "Well that was a post-hoc analysis." For this SBRT study, "It was only a phase II and a non-inferiority trial, so you can't make any conclusions about benefit." They must have a staff biostats guy over there at Evicore, keepin' 'em honest and what not.
 
Haha amen to that. Re: IMRT for Stage III, "Well that was a post-hoc analysis." For this SBRT study, "It was only a phase II and a non-inferiority trial, so you can't make any conclusions about benefit." They must have a staff biostats guy over there at Evicore, keepin' 'em honest and what not.
I ask them about the loads of data supporting hypofx in TNBC and get crickets for some reason....
 
The way I would (and did) interpret this study is that if you have a painful bone met, and you want the most (likely) pain relief possible, SBRT should be used.
Oligometastatic or not, SBRT should (theoretically) be the tx of choice for bone mets now. As opposed to the 30/10 vs 8/1 trial, this trial showed "more superior" clinical outcomes. The only reason we tx a painful bony met is to... reduce pain. So if SBRT gets used for all bone mets, it would seem to me not way off-base, but a totally different base.

Oh my bad, didn't click your link. I was reading the image you posted and thought that was what you were referencing. Figured the links were to random news articles or youtube videos like usual 😉

I think a 36% rate of pain improvement is pretty bad for 30/10 but what do I know.

But yes, I suppose they are recommending consideration of SBRT for any upfront bone met. I suppose you have evidence to defend it but it's not going to personally change my practice and I would not expect insurance to reimburse for it.
 
I am sorry to ask, but what's the cost difference in the US between the 2 regiments?

What does 10 x 3 Gy, 3D-CRT cost and what does 1 fraction of SBRT cost (obviously IMRT/VMAT)?
 
In the U.S., the question of a treatment cost requires clarification. Cost to whom?
 
I am sorry to ask, but what's the cost difference in the US between the 2 regiments?

What does 10 x 3 Gy, 3D-CRT cost and what does 1 fraction of SBRT cost (obviously IMRT/VMAT)?


One fraction SBRT listed at $9k. One fraction 3D-CRT listed at ~$1k. Even if you say 50% (likely an over-estimate) of that is based on fraction dosing (with the other 587 being cost of simulation, planning, etc.), 10 fractions would be $5500.

But exact price depends on a multitude of factors in the US. I have to imagine one-fraction SBRT is still at least 2x more expensive than 10fx 3D-CRT.
 
One fraction SBRT listed at $9k. One fraction 3D-CRT listed at ~$1k. Even if you say 50% (likely an over-estimate) of that is based on fraction dosing (with the other 587 being cost of simulation, planning, etc.), 10 fractions would be $5500.

But exact price depends on a multitude of factors in the US. I have to imagine one-fraction SBRT is still at least 2x more expensive than 10fx 3D-CRT.
Might be outdated data. SBRT used to reimburse like this; prob doesn't anymore.

One fx 3DCRT of ~$1K makes zero sense as 77295 itself by its lonesome reimburses >$1000.

However, and DESPITE what some learned colleagues say around here, academic places I think have holdover rates with some private insurers where their SBRT reimbursement is very, very good.
I am sorry to ask, but what's the cost difference in the US between the 2 regiments?

What does 10 x 3 Gy, 3D-CRT cost and what does 1 fraction of SBRT cost (obviously IMRT/VMAT)?
1) Theoretically (see Evicore guidelines above) you can't get 3D paid for bone mets w/ private insurers.
2) For Medicare, you can get almost anything paid, including 5 fx SBRT if you want. (No pre-approval process you see; you bill it, they pay.)
3) You sure as hell will not get single-fx SBRT for a run-of-mill bone met paid for by private insurance.
4) ACR says SBRT (and IMRT, which to me is how I'd plan an SBRT, there is no SBRT planning code in America, we bill the IMRT planning code usually, etc etc) is inappropriate for bony mets. I believe on basis of this study that might change.
4) This trial showed single-fx SBRT works, on a single met. Let's say we have a patient with multiple mets... I imagine some folks might try to do multi-fx SBRT on that, one SBRT per met. In America, we are limited to 5 fractions. Past that point, Cinderella's carriage becomes a pumpkin and the treatment magically becomes non-SBRT.

I would guess SBRT, global, is going to come in at about $5000 for single fraction. But for an MD just billing professional, he/she will come out about 60% ahead by converting from 10-fraction standard fx to SBRT, regardless of fractions. For an MD who gets tech and prof, and obviously for a hospital they get the tech, overall equal-to-better SBRT reimbursement especially if you start SBRT-ing multiple mets.

All the preceding is based on palliative, 10-fx or less scenarios.

One can see the large cut in reimbursement (and salary theoretically) American MDs paid on professional will endure in move to fewer fractions, or SBRT, as shown below, in curative type situations. Facilities will prob take cuts too.
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