Scared to death!

[TMS@1987]

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I am considering going into a variety of different academic programs in psychology. among them are MSW, MA or MS, PsyD, and PhD. the things is that I am scared to death of going for the PhD or the PsyD because I hear you have no life while you are going for it, that you spend every night with your head stuck in a book, that you graduate when your like 35, and that it will cost you an arm and a leg. I don't really like the idea of being a bookworm (no nastiness intended) for 5 to 6 yrs, and than coming out wiht massive amounts of debt, and than not making much more than an LCSW or an LPC. is it really worth it to go the extra 3 to 4 years to get the doctorate? also, I am very interested in working with grief and loss, as well as trauma: can i do that with an LCSW? how about an LPC? basically what i want to know is what is the upside to going for the PhD? and, is it unbelievably difficult to do (I'm not expecting it to be a walk in the park, you are training to become a doctor after all, but I have never been the best in the class scholastically, and that scares the !@#$ out of me)? can someone please help me out wiht this?😕

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I am considering going into a variety of different academic programs in psychology. among them are MSW, MA or MS, PsyD, and PhD. the things is that I am scared to death of going for the PhD or the PsyD because I hear you have no life while you are going for it, that you spend every night with your head stuck in a book,

Maybe not in a book, but it is a full-time commitment (studying, researching, seeing patients, writing, etc), including most weekends, and it really has to be the center of what you do for the next 5-6+ years.

that you graduate when your like 35, and that it will cost you an arm and a leg.

I'd say the average age of graduation is probably 28-30ish? Most doctoral students tend to be out of school for 1-2+ years (some quite a bit more), and most programs will run ~6-7 years when all is said and done (4ish for school, 1 year internship....dissertation somewhere in here, and 1-2 year post-doc).

As for cost....it depends on the program, the majority of students come out with some kind of debt (even fully funded, though that tends to happen in high cost of living areas, though some get by with $0 debt). Funding is definitely a concern, and places that have top funding are very very competitive and tend to be more research focused. You didn't mention any area of interest in research or research goals....which leads me to believe a doctorate may not be for you. Whether you are a PhD or PsyD, research is still an important component to the training. You will have to do research and stats classes, be involved in research, and tie it in with a lot of what you do.

I don't really like the idea of being a bookworm (no nastiness intended) for 5 to 6 yrs, and than coming out with massive amounts of debt, and than not making much more than an LCSW or an LPC. is it really worth it to go the extra 3 to 4 years to get the doctorate?

The debt piece is a concern, so it is important to make sure if you go this route, it is a financially viable option. As for the bookworm stuff.....that pretty much comes with the territory. You will eat, live, sleep psychology....because that is what is necessary, and most people in the programs WANT to do that (myself included). I'm not saying you won't have time to do other things, you can make time, but you are realistically looking at 60-70+ hr weeks, with 80-100+ hr weeks during crunch time. Some people want the doctorate to be easier and more accommodating, but that would requiring cutting hours....and there really aren't any to cut.

also, I am very interested in working with grief and loss, as well as trauma: can i do that with an LCSW? how about an LPC? basically what i want to know is what is the upside to going for the PhD? and, is it unbelievably difficult to do (I'm not expecting it to be a walk in the park, you are training to become a doctor after all, but I have never been the best in the class scholastically, and that scares the !@#$ out of me)? can someone please help me out wiht this?😕

You can work in many specific areas with an MS/LSW, etc. It is important to receive specific training in areas you want to practice, though the general education will give you a foundation to work from. I'm guessing the internship experience for whichever degree will provide you time to work on specific areas of interest (as long as supervision is available).

Not everyone in clinical is 'the' smartest, but it is a self-selecting group. A sub-set of people willing to go through a grind of research and clinical demands.

-t

 

[PsyKardinal]

Take what T4C is saying and apply it to the Masters level folks also, yes it may be a few years shorter, and less commitment to research.

Some things to know practical skills are emphasized, grad school is expensive, and you are going to have to read, understand, synthesize, and participate to a level you have never had to before. Graduate school is tough and demanding. It will be one of most rewarding thing that you have ever accomplished. Choose the best path for you, look at each program closely for what they can offer to you, both in short term funding and free-time, then the long-term are they going to train you to be an outstanding clinician. Then make sure that whatever you do, LPC, LCSW, PhD, or whatever you want; make sure that the program is accredited. Accreditation will make your licensure hurdles smaller and easier to navigate. Good luck, keep the good questions coming.

One cavet, grad school is easier in that it is material that you should be genuinely interested in and want to learn and be a part of. I hated alot of my undergrad non-psych work because it did not have anything to do with psych. Now I am really happy I took Rocks for Jocks it actually made me a better clinician being well-rounded.

ok longish tangentialish post sorry.

Jeff

 

[wdd]

...that you graduate when your like 35

Ah, to be young. My answer to anyone worried about how old they'll be when they finish school/piano lessons/Jedi training is this: You're going to be [insert "old" age] no matter what you do. The question, is, what would you rather be doing at that point? Something you love, or something else?

Maybe that's my way of rationalizing starting my road to the PhD at 33 years of age (and at the MA/MS level, to boot), but I think it rings true. You're always going to get older. Might as well get older doing something you find meaningful. If that's being a stockbroker and making 6-figure bonuses in your 20s, that's fine, if it works for you. For some of us, it's a PhD in psychology by the time we're 30. Or 40, or 60, or whenever--just some time before we die.

I'd say the average age of graduation is probably 28-30ish? Most doctoral students tend to be out of school for 1-2+ years (some quite a bit more), and most programs will run ~6-7 years when all is said and done (4ish for school, 1 year internship....dissertation somewhere in here, and 1-2 year post-doc).

This might be a silly, naive question, T4C, but are Post-Docs and Fellowships, by definition, paid? That is, are they essentially entry-level jobs? That would take some of the sting out of those last years, since it's essentially a "real psychology job" at that point.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This might be a silly, naive question, T4C, but are Post-Docs and Fellowships, by definition, paid? That is, are they essentially entry-level jobs? That would take some of the sting out of those last years, since it's essentially a "real psychology job" at that point.

You are correct. Technically there are some that are not paid, but those really shouldn't be considered (non-accredited, no $$!, unregulated supervision and training parameters). Internship isn't great money....$15-$30k, with the average being $20-$22 maybe? The armed services and federal prisons are $45k (and sometimes significantly more). Post-docs are $30-$35k...though I haven't looked as much into this, so take that with a large grain of salt. The armed services post docs are significantly. more.

-t

 

[psychanon]

the things is that I am scared to death of going for the PhD or the PsyD because I hear you have no life while you are going for it, that you spend every night with your head stuck in a book, that you graduate when your like 35, and that it will cost you an arm and a leg. I don't really like the idea of being a bookworm (no nastiness intended) for 5 to 6 yrs, and than coming out wiht massive amounts of debt, and than not making much more than an LCSW or an LPC.

The type of person who should go for a Ph.D. is the type of person who finds the idea of sitting around and studying for 6 years straight to be really appealing. It doesn't sound like that applies to you. Get an MSW. It sounds like it will fit your career goals perfectly.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

As a first-year PhD student I can tell you that there has yet to be a week where I wasn't at school or sitting here on my butt reading/writing/thinking for at least 75 hours. A PhD is not for someone who isn't sure they like school... especially since in a clinical PhD your classmates will most likely be relying on you to do your work so they can do theirs (for instance, the five of us in the cohort have to keep on schedule with seeing clients or else the room booking gets insane when someone tries to catch up).

The debt isn't so bad, but it depends on the school's funding and the cost of living. I turned down an offer at a professional school because it was insanely expensive, in favour of a school where I'll graduate with more money than I started. If you're externally funded it's even better.

It's a lot of work but it's not just books. I read about 700 pages a week now but I also spend a lot of hours writing reports, seeing clients, in meetings with profs, etc.

 

[JockNerd]

Yeah, I'd go with the other posters and say look more into that LCSW and what sort of grief/loss specialization you can do. If your goal is to be a supportive therapist, a good Social Work program will serve your goals better than a PhD or PsyD.

The cost's not bad for all of us. 🙂 Neither is the time frame. Is it an absolutely ridiculous amount of work? Heck yes. Hundred of pages of reading a week. Tons of applied research work. (I'm in a research-focused program, don't know if an Insider's Guide "4" would be any different; I suspect not.) But love it and wouldn't see myself doing anything else. If it doesn't sound appealing to you, you can get to your goals through other means. Social Workers get some grief on this forum sometimes, but I know many excellent MSWs and in fact had one as my undergrad thesis supervisor.

 

[KillerDiller]

To be fair to LCSWs, I'm not convinced they spend any fewer hours per week pursuing their degrees than Ph.D students. The program is shorter in duration, but no less of a time commitment. When I was getting my Masters (admittedly not in social work) I worked a good 60-70 hours a week easily and never took a weekend off. Now, in my Ph.D program I have somewhat more work to do, but I wouldn't call the difference significant.

For the OP, if you are not ready to devote that kind of time to coursework and clients, then maybe you should take a year or two off to recuperate from undergrad before tackling a MSW or whatever degree you decide to pursue.

 

[pingouin]

For the OP, if you are not ready to devote that kind of time to coursework and clients, then maybe you should take a year or two off to recuperate from undergrad before tackling a MSW or whatever degree you decide to pursue.

Diller, this is exactly what I was thinking. It sounds like the OP might benefit from some experience and exposure to the different disciplines in making the decision of where to go next. I don't know about psychology programs, but it's not uncommon for people to pursue a MSW or MA in Counseling after a few years off or as a second career.

 

[psychwanabe]

One cavet, grad school is easier in that it is material that you should be genuinely interested in and want to learn and be a part of. I hated alot of my undergrad non-psych work because it did not have anything to do with psych. Now I am really happy I took Rocks for Jocks it actually made me a better clinician being well-rounded.

I heartily second this thought! I'm a first year in a PsyD program and an "easy" week is one that's fewer than 65 hours. That being said, I am LOVING just about everything I am doing and I am to the point where I am actually doing more reading because my assigned work brings up more questions. It's nutty and I'm exhausted but I am so interested in what I am learning it's much more bearable.

Ah, to be young. My answer to anyone worried about how old they'll be when they finish school/piano lessons/Jedi training is this: You're going to be [insert "old" age] no matter what you do. The question, is, what would you rather be doing at that point? Something you love, or something else?

I use this line of reasoning all the time. I started UG as an older student and am now facing 4+ years of grad school + internship + postdoc. How old will I be when I finally have my doctorate? The same age I would've been without it! I'd rather be Dr. Old than just Old. But it's a huge commitment, I'm not going to lie. If you aren't sure, I'd think about taking some of the other advice on this board and taking a year off to decide.