School list help? 520 MCAT and 3.91 cGPA

[A_Sentient_Ape]

Need help with my school list, thank you in advance! My premed adviser thinks I lack any reach schools, I think he’s being unrealistic and am wondering if my list is already too hopeful. Sorry if that sounds annoying to say.

Non-trad (graduated 2017), 24 y/o, white male, Massachusetts resident

Stats: 520 MCAT (130/129/132/129); cGPA 3.91, sGPA 3.93 at a T50 research university, was a psychology major with minors in biology and behavioral neuroscience. Graduated summa cum laude and was in 2 honor societies (Psi Chi and Nu Rho Psi, unsure if I should list these three “honors” in my work/activities section).

Experience: 6,320 hours in research amongst four jobs (5,120 in clinical research at two Harvard affiliated hospitals, 960 in genomics benchwork, 240 in psych academic). 1 published publication (3rd author, 1.56 impact factor, LOL) with 2 more publications to be submitted by late July…these WILL be accepted, please trust me, I’ll be co-first author on both, impact factor of one will be 7+. All are related to complex cardiovascular disease, which is also how my sister died (which is also the subject of my PS).

Only had one true clinical job, it was per diem mental health counselor job I got hired for after my research position ended b/c the clinical staff thought I was really good with the patients. Only accumulated 64 hours in it since it was once a week for 2 months until I went back to school (I was also taking summer classes at the time).

255 volunteering hours through various places, notables include 148 teaching a healthy cooking class for disadvantaged kids at an inner city health center, 44 at a soup kitchen while I was studying abroad in Australia. Nothing truly clinical (shudders)

Leadership: subgroup lead for an extracurricular group the hospital I currently do research at, aimed at community outreach. I’ve coordinated volunteering opportunities (including my cooking class) for our members and led monthly meetings and organized speaker events with NPOs. Considering adding a club I was the logistics head for in college but I only organized one event for them and I probably only did like 40ish hours for that group my senior spring semester.

Shadowing: 60 hours in various specialties and settings: NICU, CICU, cardiac OR, cath lab, neurology clinic, orthopedics clinic, psychiatry day program.

Other stuff: wrote an MM about surfing and how it has challenged me and sponsored personal growth. Included in ECs a summer job I had where I worked on an organic farm and how it helped develop work ethic and opened my mind about the kind of hard work that millions of people do around the world, this was NOT an MM, just a normal entry.



Here is my list:

• Vanderbilt
• Duke
• University of Colorado School of Medicine
• University of California, San Diego School of Medicine
• Emory
• Alpert Medical School at Brown University
• Geisel School of Medicine at Dartmouth
• Boston University School of Medicine
• USC Keck
• UMass Medical School
• Tufts University School of Medicine
• Larner College of Medicine at the University of Vermont
• Georgetown University
• University of Hawaii at Manoa John A. Burns School of Medicine
• Thomas Jefferson U (Kimmel)
• George Washington University School of Medicine
• Wake Forest
• University of Miami (Miller School)
• Drexel University College of Medicine
• Temple University School of Medicine
• Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University

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[Goro]

I'm really, really worried about the lack of clinical volunteering/employment.
Start list with Stanford and WashU, but I'm worried about anywhere else.

 

[Faha]

I suggest these schools with your stats:
UMass
Boston University
Tufts
Vermont
Hofstra
Einstein
Mount Sinai
Rochester
Pittsburgh
Jefferson
Case Western
Cincinnati
Ohio State
U Michigan
Miami
Duke
Washington University
Vanderbilt
TCU-UNT
Kaiser
California University
Seton Hall
NOVA MD

 

[Moko]

Given your research bent, you might ironically have more success with research-heavy schools. However, your clinical volunteering (or lack thereof) is the biggest weakness in your application right now, and will likely be the main reason why you are either not interviewed or not accepted. Humanism is a quality that is looked for in doctors, and volunteering is often one of the easiest ways to demonstrate this. Your work with disadvantaged kids help, but we also need to know how you work around people who are sick. If you truly have good patient skills, you need to demonstrate it.

Fortunately, the lack of clinical volunteering is one of the easier things to correct. Start clinical volunteering now - 1x - 2x per week. Take those days off from research if need be -- you have enough research hours. Your application is certainly very compelling if i) indeed your publications go through, ii) you get more clinical volunteering experiences, and iii) you have strong LORs. Your GPA and MCAT are great -- but it's important to remember that these are necessary but not sufficient for an interview or acceptance.

Hope this helps!

 

[A_Sentient_Ape]

Given your research bent, you might ironically have more success with research-heavy schools.

I was under the assumption that my school list was already pretty research-oriented. I used MSAR to look at where my stats would be competitive and then used the US News lists and tried to target schools that were higher on research than primary care. Was this not a good strategy?

I am intending to continue volunteering at the healthy cooking class I teach from now until I matriculate, and one of my LoRs is from the psychologist/program director who hired me as a counselor from my research position, so I feel like he will emphasize how I was good with working with patients in that letter. I am unsure how I could work in clinical volunteering with my current schedule b/c money is fairly tight right now and I was hoping to submit my primary today...how critical is it that I add this to my primary??

 

[A_Sentient_Ape]

I'm really, really worried about the lack of clinical volunteering/employment.
Start list with Stanford and WashU, but I'm worried about anywhere else.

Are these schools more research-oriented than what I have? I feel like those schools are more competitive than many on my list, it seems counter-intuitive that I would try to cover my weakness by adding more competitive schools to my list...I tried to focus on research-oriented programs for most of my list (wit the obvious exception of some of the state schools).

I guess my question is, are you worried that I will be the victim of a no clinical volunteering + yield protection combo?

 

[Moko]

I am intending to continue volunteering at the healthy cooking class I teach from now until I matriculate, and one of my LoRs is from the psychologist/program director who hired me as a counselor from my research position, so I feel like he will emphasize how I was good with working with patients in that letter. I am unsure how I could work in clinical volunteering with my current schedule b/c money is fairly tight right now and I was hoping to submit my primary today...how critical is it that I add this to my primary??

Both clinical and non clinical volunteering is important. Historically, those with high GPA and MCAT who do not get accepted anywhere (read: become reapplicants) usually have a major deficiency in their application -- lack of shadowing, clinical volunteering, poor LOR, ECs, etc.

Med school admissions is a game of probabilities. I would start clinical volunteering now to patch up the major weakness in your app, so you can update schools with this if need be (or in the worst case scenario if you should become a reapplicant, at least you'll be ready).

Money is tight for many applicants. However the overwhelming majority of folks still find the time and energy to volunteer with patients for an afternoon or evening. Just my thoughts.

 

[Moko]

I guess my question is, are you worried that I will be the victim of a no clinical volunteering?

I fixed the question for you. The answer would be yes. As mentioned, admissions is a game of probabilities, when your application is otherwise compelling, why give folks a reason not to take you? Starting clinical volunteering now would at least give you the option to update schools with something new during interviews and/or be a better reapplicant in the worst case scenario. I also agree with adding a few more schools from Fahas and Goros list to increase the probability that you'll have at least one acceptance come next spring. Good luck

 

[Goro]

Are these schools more research-oriented than what I have? I feel like those schools are more competitive than many on my list, it seems counter-intuitive that I would try to cover my weakness by adding more competitive schools to my list...I tried to focus on research-oriented programs for most of my list (wit the obvious exception of some of the state schools).

I guess my question is, are you worried that I will be the victim of a no clinical volunteering + yield protection combo?

They're both research and stats ******.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

 

[A_Sentient_Ape]

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

This is going to sound defensive but I just think that some of my experiences are being overlooked here. I don't have "little" patient contact, one of my clinical research jobs (at a psych hospital) was almost exclusively patient contact (~960 hours). And because I wasn't a robot who was purely interested in running them through behavioral assessments but actually took the time to make them feel comfortable and "check-in" I was hired by that same program as a counselor, and in that job was literally the first person people met with when they first started the program, and the first person they would check-in with every morning. And I don't know many people who chose to volunteer at a soup kitchen every week during their study abroad.

Not to mention my sister died from congenital heart disease so I've grown up in a home full with grief, so I've grown up my entire life with the mindset that helping people overcome that kind of suffering is what I want to do. This is well-reflected in my PS. I'm just bummed that I can't include high school experiences b/c I went to Haiti twice during high school to volunteer in a mobile clinic after the earthquake in 2010. Also bummed I got such tunnel vision in college about research and grades and didn't do more volunteering.

I don't even really know why I'm defending myself though b/c I'm just going to go through with the advice you all are providing regardless. There's a homeless clinic I was going to get involved in last year before I ended up going with the healthy cooking class, that'll probably be who I reach out to first. Thank you all for the advice, sorry for getting defensive.

 

[Goro]

This is going to sound defensive but I just think that some of my experiences are being overlooked here. I don't have "little" patient contact, one of my clinical research jobs (at a psych hospital) was almost exclusively patient contact (~960 hours). And because I wasn't a robot who was purely interested in running them through behavioral assessments but actually took the time to make them feel comfortable and "check-in" I was hired by that same program as a counselor, and in that job was literally the first person people met with when they first started the program, and the first person they would check-in with every morning. And I don't know many people who chose to volunteer at a soup kitchen every week during their study abroad.

Not to mention my sister died from congenital heart disease so I've grown up in a home full with grief, so I've grown up my entire life with the mindset that helping people overcome that kind of suffering is what I want to do. This is well-reflected in my PS. I'm just bummed that I can't include high school experiences b/c I went to Haiti twice during high school to volunteer in a mobile clinic after the earthquake in 2010. Also bummed I got such tunnel vision in college about research and grades and didn't do more volunteering.

I don't even really know why I'm defending myself though b/c I'm just going to go through with the advice you all are providing regardless. There's a homeless clinic I was going to get involved in last year before I ended up going with the healthy cooking class, that'll probably be who I reach out to first. Thank you all for the advice, sorry for getting defensive.

There's a difference beteeen patients, and research subjects.

 

[Moko]

I don't have "little" patient contact, one of my clinical research jobs (at a psych hospital) was almost exclusively patient contact (~960 hours). And because I wasn't a robot who was purely interested in running them through behavioral assessments but actually took the time to make them feel comfortable

This is what you need to highlight on the application -- that you do actually have experience with those who are sick. Unfortunately, this was not immediately clear in the original post, and much like everything in life, you only get credit for what's shown / how they're perceived.

I also agree with Goro that research subjects are not the same as patients. While this still would not fully make up for the lack of significant clinical volunteering, it does make it less of a stain in my opinion. You would still benefit tremendously from further clinical volunteering as you're already planning on doing.

Not to mention my sister died from congenital heart disease so I've grown up in a home full with grief, so I've grown up my entire life with the mindset that helping people overcome that kind of suffering is what I want to do. This is well-reflected in my PS.

As a reviewer, deaths in the family are always difficult to read about, particularly when it involves an applicant's child, sibling or parent. I do believe that having these experiences make for better clinicians (and to those without such experiences: these are by no means necessary nor sufficient to be a good doctor!). My general advice when it comes to talking about these events is to avoid coming off as too emotional -- state the facts -- the emotions will still come through without making reviewers feel like their emotions are being manipulated.

I'm just bummed that I can't include high school experiences b/c I went to Haiti twice during high school to volunteer in a mobile clinic after the earthquake in 2010. Also bummed I got such tunnel vision in college about research and grades and didn't do more volunteering.

I would not include the volunteering experience to Haiti either way even if it occurred after high school -- many times they get seen as being medical tourism especially if any money was exchanged. Your application is compelling enough as is without this experience.

I don't even really know why I'm defending myself though b/c I'm just going to go through with the advice you all are providing regardless. There's a homeless clinic I was going to get involved in last year before I ended up going with the healthy cooking class, that'll probably be who I reach out to first. Thank you all for the advice, sorry for getting defensive.

No need to be sorry. It's better to be defensive here than on the application 🙂. Hindsight is always 20/20, and you can only deal the cards that are currently in your hands. Keep up with your current plan. Apply broadly with the choices that others here have highlighted, and hope for the best while planning for the worst. Hopefully your significant research experiences and otherwise strong application will allow folks to overlook the lack of significant clinical volunteering. Good luck.