School/program ranks and academic job searching

[bluebluesky]

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I was accepted to a clinical doctoral program which ranks around 100 and the general ranking of the school is beyond 150.
I know that there are plenty of schools out there that rank even behind this. And a significant plus is, my potential advisor in this program is a quite established and well-known scholar in this specific research area.

As I am making my final decision, which is not easy for me as it will change my life for the next few years, I would like to hear some advice as to how the ranks may affect future job search.

During the interview I noticed that some students in the program are also aiming at finding an academic position. However, I also heard that ranks of school or program matter quite a lot in academic positions, although advisor's status or connection also matters.

I would like to hear some of your related experience. From some posts I get the idea that clinical positions are not as related to ranks as much as academic or research positions. I aim at doing both if possible. That's why I want to get an idea before my decision. Do you think that it is quite difficult to get an academic job with ranks like these? Or it depends on your publications, advisor, and connection? And how about the relationships between ranks and clinical positions? I noticed that there are a lot of programs that are even unranked but they are still quite popular so I am a little puzzled about it.

Any input will be appreciated.

 

[erg923]

I was accepted to a clinical doctoral program which ranks around 100 and the general ranking of the school is beyond 150.
I know that there are plenty of schools out there that rank even behind this. And a significant plus is, my potential advisor in this program is a quite established and well-known scholar in this specific research area.

As I am making my final decision, which is not easy for me as it will change my life for the next few years, I would like to hear some advice as to how the ranks may affect future job search.

During the interview I noticed that some students in the program are also aiming at finding an academic position. However, I also heard that ranks of school or program matter quite a lot in academic positions, although advisor's status or connection also matters.

I would like to hear some of your related experience. From some posts I get the idea that clinical positions are not as related to ranks as much as academic or research positions. I aim at doing both if possible. That's why I want to get an idea before my decision. Do you think that it is quite difficult to get an academic job with ranks like these? Or it depends on your publications, advisor, and connection? And how about the relationships between ranks and clinical positions? I noticed that there are a lot of programs that are even unranked but they are still quite popular so I am a little puzzled about it.

Any input will be appreciated.

What does "rank" mean? That is, what criteria/criterion was used to determine the rank order?

If its EPPP score of recent grads (as one was based on some years ago), i have no idea why that would be meaninful AT ALL if you are looking at academic positions.

I would encoruage you to think about overall reputation in the field according to other professionals/researchers.

 

[bluebluesky]

What does "rank" mean? That is, what criteria/criterion was used to determine the rank order?

If its EPPP score of recent grads (as one was based on some years ago), i have no idea why that would be meaninful AT ALL if you are looking at academic positions.

Oh...I am referring to USNEWS ranks for clinical psychology and USNEWS general "best colleges" school ranking.

 

[erg923]

Oh...I am referring to USNEWS ranks for clinical psychology and USNEWS general "best colleges" school ranking.

Well is that the one that used EPPP scores as the sole criteria?

 

[deliciousgoose]

No the US News one uses professors ratings of other clinical programs to determine rankings.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Well is that the one that used EPPP scores as the sole criteria?

No, the US News rankings are based solely (as I understand it) on likert ratings filled out by TDs at each program where they're asked to rank the reputation of all other grad programs. Or something like that.

The EPPP rankings are up on some website (socialpsych.com or something similar, I believe).

In either case, neither system is particularly useful in and of itself, and I wouldn't let either significantly affect my decision, particularly when taken in isolation. The reputation of your advisor/lab tends to matter much more.

 

[wigflip]

Can you get any info on recent grads from your prospective program(s) who went the academic path and find out where they ended up (and who they worked with, and how much they published, and what kind of grants they got, and when during their academic career they accomplished all this)? My passion for academia kind of evaporated when I discovered that grads of my program typically get hired by Invest-in-a-Cold-Weather-Wardrobe University or Bottom-of-the-Barrel-These-Kids-Gotta-Go-Somewhere College.

I was accepted to a clinical doctoral program which ranks around 100 and the general ranking of the school is beyond 150.
I know that there are plenty of schools out there that rank even behind this. And a significant plus is, my potential advisor in this program is a quite established and well-known scholar in this specific research area.

As I am making my final decision, which is not easy for me as it will change my life for the next few years, I would like to hear some advice as to how the ranks may affect future job search.

During the interview I noticed that some students in the program are also aiming at finding an academic position. However, I also heard that ranks of school or program matter quite a lot in academic positions, although advisor's status or connection also matters.

I would like to hear some of your related experience. From some posts I get the idea that clinical positions are not as related to ranks as much as academic or research positions. I aim at doing both if possible. That's why I want to get an idea before my decision. Do you think that it is quite difficult to get an academic job with ranks like these? Or it depends on your publications, advisor, and connection? And how about the relationships between ranks and clinical positions? I noticed that there are a lot of programs that are even unranked but they are still quite popular so I am a little puzzled about it.

Any input will be appreciated.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

My passion for academia kind of evaporated when I discovered that grads of my program typically get hired by Invest-in-a-Cold-Weather-Wardrobe University or Bottom-of-the-Barrel-These-Kids-Gotta-Go-Somewhere College.

🤣

HA!! Wig, you crack me up.

Soooo....what if those are the only kinds of universities I've been to?? What are you saying?! 😱

 

[wigflip]

🤣

HA!! Wig, you crack me up.

Soooo....what if those are the only kinds of universities I've been to?? What are you saying?! 😱

Oh no, Psychadelic, sorry! But I'm thinking of places where you're likely to see the Aurora Borealis more than real but cold cities with legit R1 instititutions...if that helps...ulp! 😳

 

[cara susanna]

I'm at a place where I'm likely to see the Aurora Borealis D:

 

[wigflip]

I'm at a place where I'm likely to see the Aurora Borealis D:

Ah nuts. Sorry, cara--I didn't intend to offend. At least the pretty lights don't seem to be detracting from your research productivity--congrats on your 10 projects.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Oh no, Psychadelic, sorry! But I'm thinking of places where you're likely to see the Aurora Borealis more than real but cold cities with legit R1 instititutions...if that helps...ulp! 😳

That's okay. I'm proud of my liberal arts, teaching college, working class background...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I was accepted to a clinical doctoral program which ranks around 100 and the general ranking of the school is beyond 150.

I noticed that there are a lot of programs that are even unranked but they are still quite popular so I am a little puzzled about it.

There are no legitimate rankings at the program level. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. People need to stop trying to evaluate programs like this because the rankings are junk. Do NOT bring this up to faculty or they will probably look at you sideways because it indicates a lack of understanding of academia. Many students fall into this trap because no one has told them differently....so consider this a public service. 😀

I made a thread 2-3 years ago about the various 'rankings'...but here is a quick synopsis. USN&WR continues to have crap methodology, but they don't care because they are the most well known 'ranking' group. The analysis using EPPP ranking is only a hair better, but it fails to account for programs that teach to the exam. There was a ranking of programs that looked at research productivity, which wasn't horrible...but there were other flaws.

If you are looking to be in academia...here is what matters.
1. Can you secure (large, multi-year) grants? If not, have you shown strong promise by just missing a cutoff score?
2. Have you published in high impact journals? How many 1st or 2nd author?
3. Have you been active in your speciality area by presenting at conferences?
4. Do you have a line of research that has a good chance of still being relevant to the field/to the funding organizations?
5. Do people know you and your work?

There are more, but that will get you started. What will not matter is where you program is ranked. Your mentor matters more than the program. Your productivity matters more than your program's.

 

[psychgeek]

There are no legitimate rankings at the program level. None. Zero. Zip. Nada. People need to stop trying to evaluate programs like this because the rankings are junk.

Yep, This.

There are professors that can fast-track you to tenure at otherwise questionable universities and those that have no pull at all at R1 institutions. Publication record of students and placement record of graduates from the lab are the only rankings that matter in academic psychology.

 

[cara susanna]

Ah nuts. Sorry, cara--I didn't intend to offend. At least the pretty lights don't seem to be detracting from your research productivity--congrats on your 10 projects.

Jeez, first my cords and then my view of the northern lights! Nah, I'm kidding 😉 No problem.

Thanks, here's hoping they actually turn into publications someday.

 

[wigflip]

Thanks, here's hoping they actually turn into publications someday.

And congrats on teaching your first class. Hope that's going well.

 

[seeker85]

I have a question regarding post-doc and faculty positions. Do you pretty much have to be open to moving anywhere in the country (much like you do when applying to grad school) or can competitive applicants usually secure a position in their desired location?

 

[thewesternsky]

I have a question regarding post-doc and faculty positions. Do you pretty much have to be open to moving anywhere in the country (much like you do when applying to grad school) or can competitive applicants usually secure a position in their desired location?

The first one, there. Sadly.

 

[wigflip]

I have a question regarding post-doc and faculty positions. Do you pretty much have to be open to moving anywhere in the country (much like you do when applying to grad school) or can competitive applicants usually secure a position in their desired location?

The conventional wisdom I've heard (both from within and outside of psych circles) is that yes, you need to be open to moving anywhere for faculty jobs. But this may be less true if you are open to taking jobs with less prestige (mid-level state schools, SLACs, community college). You can research this by tracking the job market now (look for openings and see who gets hired and what their pedigree/credentials are). You can also just check departmental websites for recent hires and scan their CVs. Recent hires are more indicative of the current job market than tenured folks who've been with the department forever.

Pepperdine in LA is instructive in this regard. Search their faculty pages and you'll note that an overwhelming number of their profs went to UCLA, the top ranked school in the region. There are a few relatively recent hires from other places, but the sense one gets is that Pepperdine is an institution that takes departmental rank into consideration, and provides a home for UCLA grads who want to stay in the area after graduation more than they want to pursue an R1 T-T position which might require them to move.