Schools that emphasize integrative medicine?

[CascadianMD]

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Does anyone know of any allopathic med schools that incorporate or even acknowledge other approaches to heath such as nutrition, herbal remedies etc?

Thanks!

 

[8744]

Dude. Herbal medicine? Please dont tell me you buy into all of that naturopathic and alternative medicine crap.

And it is crap.

And people will laugh at you.

 

[Merissa87]

Okay...maybe not herbal remedies. But what about wellness, such as promoting health before disease happens. I am curious to know if any schools incorporate this into their curricculum.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It's called a DO program.....

But seriously....from what I have heard many allopathic schools include preventive medicine courses.

 

[8744]

Okay...maybe not herbal remedies. But what about wellness, such as promoting health before disease happens. I am curious to know if any schools incorporate this into their curricculum.

Whenever I hear the word "wellness," I reach for my revolver.

Oh, and you are going to beat your head to a bloody pulp trying to promote healthy living to the public. The people who care about "wellness" talk about nothing else and make something of a religion of their "well being." The ones who don't, well, don't and will nod politely and make the proper horrified noises when you invoke the evil magic but will go right on living as they pleas jsut the same.

 

[DrBowtie]

Check the N.D. schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

Does anyone know of any allopathic med schools that incorporate or even acknowledge other approaches to heath such as nutrition, herbal remedies etc?

Thanks!

Most schools will talk about herbal medicine quite a bit in a very negative context, in that a lot of these herbs can react with pharmaceuticals and other meds and result in very bad combinations. While there is a very limited and skeptical knowledge of whether there is any positive benefit of a lot of these remedies, there are significant negative side effects to watch for, and when a physician takes a good history, s/he will ideally ask the patient whether the patient has taken any herbs or other such home remedies. I doubt that was what you were looking for.
Nutrition will be dealt with in the sense that a variety of maladies can be caused by vitamin deficiencies, malnutrition, and certainly bad diet is tied into things like obesity and diabetes. But no, you won't learn the food pyramid and such in med school.

 

[riceman04]

Does anyone know of any allopathic med schools that incorporate or even acknowledge other approaches to heath such as nutrition, herbal remedies etc?

Thanks!

Actually there are schools that are beginning to offer nutrition elective courses...but it has not been integrated (in any curriculum I know of) to the extent where it makes up a good portion of the curriculum.

Most of the integration that is occurring in allopathic schools involves the integration of interdisciplinary methods, integration of more research into the curriculum, the integration of clinical skills/science (usually in the form of PBL and case-based learning).

DO schools, on the other hand, study all of that other stuff you mentioned. There is one technique DO's use that I think is awesome (and I would like to learn it): manipulation!!!

good luck

 

[Sanctuary]

I agree with most of the other posts other than the one suggesting that "all" herbal remedies do not work. I think one must look at "all" herbs in order to make such a sweeping statement. Then again, I don't take herbs (unless you consider my green/black tea), but rather, just live an active, healthy lifestyle. Herein lies the problem -- most people do not do what I just mentioned. Rather, they live off of McDonald's and such things as deep-fried cheese (what a concept). At which point, their medical doctor suggests that they perhaps discontinue the deep-friend cheese diet and instead of agreeing, they become angry that someone would suggest such an outlandish recommendation. Instead, they demand a "pill" that will make their 350 lb. ass shrink and their gall bladder grow back. This is where pharmaceuticals come in. As one person mentioned, quite a few of them interact with "herbs", thus enabling physicians to not recommend their concurrent usage. Conclusion: at the end of the day you have Fat Billy who continues to live off of Marlboro, deep-fried cheese, and cake. He pays $320 a month on his prescription drugs and chuckles at people in TV commercials who promote wellness because his wellness resides in a pill.

ACK!! I think I just described my neighbor! lol (sorry Bill)

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Does anyone know of any allopathic med schools that incorporate or even acknowledge other approaches to heath such as nutrition, herbal remedies etc?

Thanks!

I think if you're interested in this you would be better served to read independently and seek out mentors in the field (they are there). No allopathic school is going to focus too much on this stuff b/c it's not the focus of allopathic medicine.

While we should be actively engaged in "wellness," many specialties of medicine are directed at correcting problems that herbs and nutrition cannot touch. Sometimes you just need antibiotics or for someone to cut you open and take out the badness. You go to medical school to learn how to fight illness with the most advanced tools available.

You absolutely will find a hostility towards alot of alternative stuff in medicine. Why? Because the denziens of "alternative" medicine are often as hostile to the scientific method as MDs/DOs are towards roots, berries, and magical stones. If a large study is done to prove that an herb/supplement is not effective (i.e. a recent paper on saw palmetto) many in the alternative camp simply refute the evidence with anecdotes. This is not the way scientific medicine works.

Good luck.

 

[sheepunite]

andrew weil's at the university of arizona, tuscon.

 

[Merissa87]

Soooo.....SO ya'll think that me majoring in Nutrition and Chem will hurt me applying to M.D. schools, do you think they would ask me why didn't I apply to D.O.

 

[8744]

Soooo.....SO ya'll think that me majoring in Nutrition and Chem will hurt me applying to M.D. schools, do you think they would ask me why didn't I apply to D.O.

Oh no. There is nothing wrong with your major. Every physician also needs to know enough about nutrition to have an intelligent conversation with his patients. But if you want to be a nutritionist why spend seven or more years training to be a physician?

"Nutrition" is a consult. Same with Social Work, Lactation, and any number of ancilliary services which would eat up all of your billable time if you tried to do it all yourself.

As for "wellness," it's a buzzword whose definition is so broad and which encompasses so many things, not all of which are either evidence-based or really the business of physicians, that it has become a refuge for scoundrals...that is, people who really have no jobs except to sit around promoting wellness.

Be a serious physician.

 

[8744]

I agree with most of the other posts other than the one suggesting that "all" herbal remedies do not work. I think one must look at "all" herbs in order to make such a sweeping statement. Then again, I don't take herbs (unless you consider my green/black tea), but rather, just live an active, healthy lifestyle. Herein lies the problem -- most people do not do what I just mentioned. Rather, they live off of McDonald's and such things as deep-fried cheese (what a concept). At which point, their medical doctor suggests that they perhaps discontinue the deep-friend cheese diet and instead of agreeing, they become angry that someone would suggest such an outlandish recommendation. Instead, they demand a "pill" that will make their 350 lb. ass shrink and their gall bladder grow back. This is where pharmaceuticals come in. As one person mentioned, quite a few of them interact with "herbs", thus enabling physicians to not recommend their concurrent usage. Conclusion: at the end of the day you have Fat Billy who continues to live off of Marlboro, deep-fried cheese, and cake. He pays $320 a month on his prescription drugs and chuckles at people in TV commercials who promote wellness because his wellness resides in a pill.

ACK!! I think I just described my neighbor! lol (sorry Bill)

Lay off my boy Fat Billy. He's a veteran, a tax-payer, a God-fearing man, and supports his own children who he fathered by a woman to whom he is married.

We can't all be painfully thin.

Sincerely,

P. Bear, Devourer of Hoofed Mammals
5'-11" 224 lbs BMI 29.99999

 

[cubbbie]

I wrote a paper about this topic for an anthro class. Say what you will about complementary and alternative medicine -- but it absolutely should not be neglected in medical school. Even if it's taught with a negative bent, doctors should know about it. Over 1/3 of people in the US use CAM, and doctors should know what it means when an AIDS patient is taking St. John's Wort, or something like that. It really CAN impact the treatment (yes, usually for the worse).

That said, I understand that Georgetown has a very new agey approach to integrative medicine in the classroom -- every basic science course introduces the topic in some fashion, whether it be acupuncture in neuroscience or homeopathic remedies in pharmacology. Stanford also talks about the topic quite a bit, though in a much more negative light. Overall, I think something like 80% of med school deans said it's integrated into their curriculum in some fashion.

 

[jace's mom]

As for "wellness," it's a buzzword whose definition is so broad and which encompasses so many things, not all of which are either evidence-based or really the business of physicians, that it has become a refuge for scoundrals...that is, people who really have no jobs except to sit around promoting wellness.

Be a serious physician.

Panda Bear, please don't take this the wrong way, but I would have to disagree with what I see as your definition of a 'serious physician'. I personally think that wellness is an extremely important concept of any individual's healthcare, and I think doctors are wise to include that. This includes (among many other things) listening to alternative treatments that patients would like to try, doing that research which can be done, and agreeing within reason to incorporate those aspects into the patient's plan. I think my philosphy relates to the World Health Organization's definition of health as "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

Having said that, I realize that not all people feel the same way as I do. I suspect that you and I will never view this issue the same way, which is what makes life so interesting, yes? I just wanted to point out that I consider myself a serious health professional, and when I'm a physician I will consider myself to be a serious doctor, integrative medicine and all.

 

[star22]

I wrote a paper about this topic for an anthro class. Say what you will about complementary and alternative medicine -- but it absolutely should not be neglected in medical school. Even if it's taught with a negative bent, doctors should know about it. Over 1/3 of people in the US use CAM, and doctors should know what it means when an AIDS patient is taking St. John's Wort, or something like that. It really CAN impact the treatment (yes, usually for the worse).

That said, I understand that Georgetown has a very new agey approach to integrative medicine in the classroom -- every basic science course introduces the topic in some fashion, whether it be acupuncture in neuroscience or homeopathic remedies in pharmacology. Stanford also talks about the topic quite a bit, though in a much more negative light. Overall, I think something like 80% of med school deans said it's integrated into their curriculum in some fashion.

Complementary and Alternative Medicine is taken very seriously these days.... even by scientists. NIH has poured millions of $$$ into expanding CAM research. Lets face it, a lot current meds were originally dervied from plants (i.e. digitalis).

http://nccam.nih.gov/

As for wellness being a buzzword.... I think the NIH should pour millions into promoting wellness. How do you think our health care cost would change nationwide if everyone found healthy outlets for stress, excercised daily, ate reasonably and quit smoking?

 

[TheMightyAngus]

As for wellness being a buzzword.... I think the NIH should pour millions into promoting wellness. How do you think our health care cost would change nationwide if everyone found healthy outlets for stress, excercised daily, ate reasonably and quit smoking?

What exactly should the NIH spend millions on? Common sense?

Eat less.
Exercise more.
Stop smoking.
Lower your blood pressure.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

How do you think our health care cost would change nationwide if everyone found healthy outlets for stress, excercised daily, ate reasonably and quit smoking?

It would be nice, but it will never happen.

 

[kyidmnmaiv]

We can't all be painfully thin.

Of course we can't. But we can treat our bodies the way God intended us to.

 

[latinfridley]

Complementary and Alternative Medicine is taken very seriously these days.... even by scientists. NIH has poured millions of $$$ into expanding CAM research. Lets face it, a lot current meds were originally dervied from plants (i.e. digitalis).

http://nccam.nih.gov/

There is alot of money being poured into research about many alternative therapies. This is a good thing. Why? Because many people believe in this stuff. Most of alternative medicine is absolute crap touted by many companies to be effective medicine. We need more regulation of the over the counter herbal/ supplement industry. Currently the FDA does not regulate over the counter herbal supplements other than to say that you can't say that a herb (or other supplement) cures certain illnesses. This is a joke. You also have conmen like Kevin Trudeau (a bonafide scam artist) selling his books on 'natural cures they don't want you to know about.' We need to clamp down on this bs. When you put these 'alternative therapies' under the microscope (sci method) 99.9% of them are failures. Don't believe me? Do some searches on pubmed, find some reputable journals (i.e.- peer reviewed), and look up the evidence (lack of) yourself. Rant over.
Oh and btw: as for many drugs being derived from plant products or other natural compounds, that is undisputed. However, the pharmaceutical companies know this too. In fact, they are on the constant search for these compounds. Why? Because they can synthesize it, patent it, and sell it for a profit. So believe me when I say that if there are 'wonder' natural compounds out there, 1) they haven't been found yet or 2) they have already been found and synthesized by phamaceutical companies. There are no 'secret natural cures' out there. When you hear many of these con-artists touting it, be very, very, very, very, skeptical.

 

[tifa]

UCSF has an area of concentration called Social Sciences in Medicine and integrative medicine is a large part of it.
*********
The Area of Concentration in Social Sciences in Medicine

The Social Sciences in Medicine AoC includes fields of inquiry in anthropology, sociology, and integrative medicine. Students who enroll in the Social Sciences in Medicine track will participate in a two-week long core course titled "The Clinician as Ethnographer," which will train students in principles of ethnographic research and introduce them to a variety of social science topics and methods to prepare them to conduct a field research project. The broad range of research possibilities includes issues in cross-cultural healing, health disparities, and complementary and alternative medicine. Examples of projects include:

* interview study of traditional Latina folk healers in the Mission District
* comparative ethnography of alternative and conventional medical clinics in the Outer Sunset
* the role of physicians' self-care in promoting the process of change in patient well being
* focus group study at the SFGH Refugee Clinic of spiritual and health beliefs of recently arrived Afghani refugees
* differing conceptualizations of depression among Ayurvedic, Traditional Chinese, and Native American medical practitioners

For more information about the Social Sciences track of this AoC, please contact either of the co-directors:

 

[asunshine]

It would be nice, but it will never happen.

You bet it will! What about all those cities banning smoking in bars and restaurants? It's not going away.

If truck driver Ed didn't eat so many Big Macs and stopped smoking, he wouldn't be getting that $15,000 cath.....or is that maybe why we don't want to push for public health?

Like the PP said, there are a lot of drugs that came from plants (aspirin, taxol, dig, warfarin, etc.), and we really do need to research alternative therapies before we call them cure-alls (is anything a cure-all?). With that being said, who can deny that a massage makes your aching back feel better, or that if you found something that alleviated your symptoms without having to take a pill, you would do it? I see the niche for alternative therapies is in symptom relief and preventative care, everything else is for conventional medicine to treat.

I will definitely be integrating my practice of medicine in a responsible, serious way. And I think I owe it to my patients to try to save them a heartbreaking trip to the cath lab. Yes, it's ultimately up to them how they want to be treated; any patient can blow off conventional therapy just as easily as the alternative ones...

 

[tifa]

You bet it will! What about all those cities banning smoking in bars and restaurants? It's not going away.

There are places besides Vegas where it's okay to smoke indoors? I thought it was like that everywhere...I guess I've been spoiled in california.

 

[asunshine]

There are places besides Vegas where it's okay to smoke indoors? I thought it was like that everywhere...I guess I've been spoiled in california.

you should come hang out with me in "up north" wisconsin! would you like some tar with your fish fry?

 

[Vox Animo]

Everyone knows that nutrition and health are completely unrelated. Go back to Canada hippie!!!

 

[Hopeful_Doc]

Andrew Weil, one of the most noted in the field of integrative medicine is a professor at Arizona School of Medicine. He is director of their integrative medicine department.

 

[thes_hunter]

Lay off my boy Fat Billy. He's a veteran, a tax-payer, a God-fearing man, and supports his own children who he fathered by a woman to whom he is married.

We can't all be painfully thin.

Sincerely,

P. Bear, Devourer of Hoofed Mammals
5'-11" 224 lbs BMI 29.99999

I must say, you consistantly amaze and amuse me with your well honed witt and your well crafted humour.

 

[nvshelat]

There is alot of money being poured into research about many alternative therapies. This is a good thing. Why? Because many people believe in this stuff. Most of alternative medicine is absolute crap touted by many companies to be effective medicine. We need more regulation of the over the counter herbal/ supplement industry. Currently the FDA does not regulate over the counter herbal supplements other than to say that you can't say that a herb (or other supplement) cures certain illnesses. This is a joke. You also have conmen like Kevin Trudeau (a bonafide scam artist) selling his books on 'natural cures they don't want you to know about.' We need to clamp down on this bs. When you put these 'alternative therapies' under the microscope (sci method) 99.9% of them are failures. Don't believe me? Do some searches on pubmed, find some reputable journals (i.e.- peer reviewed), and look up the evidence (lack of) yourself. Rant over.
Oh and btw: as for many drugs being derived from plant products or other natural compounds, that is undisputed. However, the pharmaceutical companies know this too. In fact, they are on the constant search for these compounds. Why? Because they can synthesize it, patent it, and sell it for a profit. So believe me when I say that if there are 'wonder' natural compounds out there, 1) they haven't been found yet or 2) they have already been found and synthesized by phamaceutical companies. There are no 'secret natural cures' out there. When you hear many of these con-artists touting it, be very, very, very, very, skeptical.

I agree that there prolly are too many con artists out there looking to make a quick buck. But at the same time, many foods/spices have properties help maintain a healthy lifestyle, and today's doctors need to adopt this preventative approach and keep their patients informed, so that when a patient says "well I don't want to take a cholesterol lowering drug, what natural things can I take" the doctor has an answer. Take tumeric (curcumin) for instance. Indians have been using this spice in cooking forever, and now big Pharma is trying to patent it because it has anti inflammatory properties. I would think it's useful for a doctor to know that there is a preventative approach to things (specific dietary measures) rather than a reactive approach.

Then again, you could argue we just need more R.D.s.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

You bet it will! What about all those cities banning smoking in bars and restaurants? It's not going away.

If truck driver Ed didn't eat so many Big Macs and stopped smoking, he wouldn't be getting that $15,000 cath.....or is that maybe why we don't want to push for public health?

Public smoking restrictions will not prevent people from being stupid and abusing their bodies, nor will "Ed" stop eating like a pig at every opportunity. Personally I just think if they want to, go for it. I'm an opportunist at heart.

 

[stiffany]

UCSF has an area of concentration called Social Sciences in Medicine and integrative medicine is a large part of it.
*********
The Area of Concentration in Social Sciences in Medicine

The Social Sciences in Medicine AoC includes fields of inquiry in anthropology, sociology, and integrative medicine. Students who enroll in the Social Sciences in Medicine track will participate in a two-week long core course titled "The Clinician as Ethnographer," which will train students in principles of ethnographic research and introduce them to a variety of social science topics and methods to prepare them to conduct a field research project. The broad range of research possibilities includes issues in cross-cultural healing, health disparities, and complementary and alternative medicine. Examples of projects include:

* interview study of traditional Latina folk healers in the Mission District
* comparative ethnography of alternative and conventional medical clinics in the Outer Sunset
* the role of physicians' self-care in promoting the process of change in patient well being
* focus group study at the SFGH Refugee Clinic of spiritual and health beliefs of recently arrived Afghani refugees
* differing conceptualizations of depression among Ayurvedic, Traditional Chinese, and Native American medical practitioners

For more information about the Social Sciences track of this AoC, please contact either of the co-directors:

I see this more as a "let's make clinicians more culturally sensitive" enterprise than an attempt to provide complementary medical approaches as a supplement to diagnostic and treatment options available from biomedical clinicians. Just because someone learns about approaches out there doesn't mean that a medical school will advocate integrating these approaches into medical care like it seems the OP wants. Regardless though, UCSF's combined program with UC Berkeley's medical anthropology program does kick *&^.

 

[8744]

Of course we can't. But we can treat our bodies the way God intended us to.

Keep your repressive religious beliefs out of my body.

 

[8744]

Panda Bear, please don't take this the wrong way, but I would have to disagree with what I see as your definition of a 'serious physician'. I personally think that wellness is an extremely important concept of any individual's healthcare, and I think doctors are wise to include that. This includes (among many other things) listening to alternative treatments that patients would like to try, doing that research which can be done, and agreeing within reason to incorporate those aspects into the patient's plan. I think my philosphy relates to the World Health Organization's definition of health as "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity."

Oh, no offense taken at all. But that's why I'm going into Emergency Medicine, so I don't have to have long discussions with my patients about the benefits of Saw Palmetto and how it will achieve synergy with their weekly Mongolian yak milk enemas.

Seriously, most alternative medicine is harmless enough and if my patients ask me about some herbal or naturapathic remedy my first question is, "How much are you paying for it?" If it's less than the cost of couple of Big Macs and it's harmless....well....it's harmless and it makes the patient feel better so no harm, no foul.

I have found that people who are into CAM are usually fairly self-centered and make something of a fetish of their "well-being." There is no question in my mind that the obsession with self of which a preoccupation with well-being is just one symptom has replaced religious belief in our self-centered age. This is not to say that people in the past weren't self-centered because they were. I certainly am for my part. It's just that we didn't use to make such a virtue out of it.

Good diet and exercise is not a complicated concept. You can have a good diet and good fitness and eat raw bloody meat and fried twinkies now and then. Moderation is the key. The rest of it is just a fad and some of it is an outright scam.

 

[8744]

...what natural things can I take" the doctor has an answer. Take tumeric (curcumin) for instance...

When the revolution comes, those who use the word "natural" as some kind of talisman for "good" will be the first ones up against the wall.

"Natural" is an even more nebulous concept than "well-being" and just as over-used. It has no place in your physician's vocabulary. I mean, there's nothing more natural than a big old slab of charred, bloody red meat cooked over a natual wood fire and served with some natural potatoes fried in natural pig fat.

 

[8744]

* interview study of traditional Latina folk healers in the Mission District
* comparative ethnography of alternative and conventional medical clinics in the Outer Sunset
* the role of physicians' self-care in promoting the process of change in patient well being
* focus group study at the SFGH Refugee Clinic of spiritual and health beliefs of recently arrived Afghani refugees
* differing conceptualizations of depression among Ayurvedic, Traditional Chinese, and Native American medical practitioners

Most of this is unadulterated, whole-hog, pure-D bull****. That's the problem with alternative medicine. Some of it may be valid but you have to hang out with the freaks to get at it.

 

[thes_hunter]

When the revolution comes, those who use the word "natural" as some kind of talisman for "good" will be the first ones up against the wall.

"Natural" is an even more nebulous concept than "well-being" and just as over-used.

The compounds Conium alkaloids made by Hemlock are just as dangerous in Socrates day as they are now. However, they are completely herbal, and natural.

Chemistry is not our enemy, and nature isn't necessarily our friend.