Schools that prefer in-state applicants -

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If there is another thread on this, please link me to it but otherwise:

Wondering which MD schools tend to prefer in-state applicants ASIDE FROM the obvious California/UC system.

More specifically, I was wondering about the state of New York and University of Colorado at Denver, School of Medicine.
 
trainsgoingwild said:
If there is another thread on this, please link me to it but otherwise:

Wondering which MD schools tend to prefer in-state applicants ASIDE FROM the obvious California/UC system.

More specifically, I was wondering about the state of New York and University of Colorado at Denver, School of Medicine.
Click to expand...
Every public school except:
Ohio State
UVA
UMich
UW if you are WWAMI
UMich
UVM
UCLA
UCSF
UCSD
UNV if you are from Idaho or Like 6 counties in California
U of Arizona Tucson is slightly more OOS friendly.
WVU, but they reject A LOT of OOS post interview

The rest** don’t really like OOS without ties or superstar applicants.

**if I forgot any public schools, please quote this, tell me the school and any OOS conditions, and I will add it to my list.
 
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Do you have access to the MSAR? If not buy it and search. It tells you what percentages of IS v.OOS are interviews , accepted etc. Private schools don’t care where you live. Some states are mandated by law to have a certain percentage of IS students in each class.
 
MemeLord said:
Every public school except:
Ohio State
UVA
UMich
UW if you are WWAMI
UMich
UVM
UCLA
UCSF
UCR
UNV if you are from Idaho or Like 6 counties in California
U of Arizona Tucson is slightly more OOS friendly.
WVU, but they reject A LOT of OOS post interview

The rest** don’t really like OOS without ties or superstar applicants.

**if I forgot any public schools, please quote this, tell me the school and any OOS conditions, and I will add it to my list.
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UCR? UC Riverside??? Aren't they almost OOS "hostile"?
 
Check matriculant data on AAMC Table A-1 it has every MD school by state.

The general rule is >30% acceptance or matriculance is a school that does not heavily favor IS applicants.
 
MemeLord said:
Every public school except:
Ohio State
UVA
UMich
UW if you are WWAMI
UMich
UVM
UCLA
UCSF
UCR
UNV if you are from Idaho or Like 6 counties in California
U of Arizona is slightly more OOS friendly.
WVU, but they reject A LOT of OOS post interview

The rest** don’t really like OOS without ties or superstar applicants.

**if I forgot any public schools, please quote this, tell me the school and any OOS conditions, and I will add it to my list.
Click to expand...
As a CA resident, this just makes me sad
Wally1980 said:
UCR? UC Riverside??? Aren't they almost OOS "hostile"?
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they’re out of region hostile!
 
MemeLord said:
You can always apply to private schools.
Click to expand...
I am, trust me.

Sunbodi said:
Yes being a Californian sucks in med school admissions. Sorry to hear. Many Californian applicants apply to 30-45 schools.
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Haha thanks for your condolences. Yeah, I added three more schools today, and will probably add an additional 2 later this week. That takes me to a grand total of 34. I won’t send in the northstate secondary, and I’m still (hopefully) waiting for UCSF and ucd’s Secondaries. Let’s just say this is WAY more expensive than I was expecting haha
 
MemeLord said:
You can always apply to private schools.
Click to expand...
premed20172017 said:
I am, trust me.


Haha thanks for your condolences. Yeah, I added three more schools today, and will probably add an additional 2 later this week. That takes me to a grand total of 34. I won’t send in the northstate secondary, and I’m still (hopefully) waiting for UCSF and ucd’s Secondaries. Let’s just say this is WAY more expensive than I was expecting haha
Click to expand...

Private MD schools are not an easy solution for California applicants for the following reasons:

The high tiered ones are very hard for anyone to get into.

The mid tiered ones are mostly in the East Coast/Midwest and give an unofficial boost to people in that region. USC definitely prefers California applicants (they get the exact same number of IS and OOS applications but interview nearly three times as many IS as OOS). Several privates around the country do the same.

The lower tiered MD schools (Drexel, Wake, Temple, Tulane, Albany, Jefferson, Loyola etc.....) get a trillion applications and are super low yield.

Having said that, hundreds of Cali applicants are successful in getting into a private MD school. But hundreds more very strong Cali applicants often get the short end of the stick and end up applying DO, which raises the caliber of DO applicants from California. @Goro has stated multiple times that California has some of the strongest DO applicants.
 
TRexLife4 said:
Private MD schools are not an easy solution for California applicants for the following reasons:

The high tiered ones are very hard for anyone to get into.

The mid tiered ones are mostly in the East Coast/Midwest and give an unofficial boost to people in that region. USC definitely prefers California applicants (they get the exact same number of IS and OOS applications but interview nearly three times as many IS as OOS). Several privates around the country do the same.

The lower tiered MD schools (Drexel, Wake, Temple, Tulane, Albany, Jefferson, Loyola etc.....) get a trillion applications and are super low yield.

Having said that, very strong California applicants often get the short end of the stick and end up applying DO, which raises the caliber of DO applicants from California. @Goro has stated multiple times that California has some of the strongest DO applicants.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. It helps keep it in perspective. We’ve got a great university system, but we don’t get much love from our med schools. Plus, who doesn’t want to live here? Fingers crossed it works out for me and other SDN CA applicants.
 
trainsgoingwild said:
If there is another thread on this, please link me to it but otherwise:

Wondering which MD schools tend to prefer in-state applicants ASIDE FROM the obvious California/UC system.

More specifically, I was wondering about the state of New York and University of Colorado at Denver, School of Medicine.
Click to expand...
Look at this table.
It shows the instate status percentage of first year matriculants at every MD school in the fall of 2018. I think this table actually understates in state bias because I don't believe it accounts for the Delaware bias at Thomas Jefferson, the Maine bias at Tufts or the WWAMI bias at the University of Washington.
 
Gonnif, I think you are the one who is wrong. The matriculation rate is irrelevant. The key question is whether Californians have a steeper hill to climb than applicants from other states. I have attached a file containing the MCAT and GPA averages for matriculants on a state by state basis for each year between 1997-2009. You will see that the MCAT averages for California matriculants are much higher than the national averages. Compare Calidfornia with West Virginia every year. The difference is massive.

These data are a bit old but they are telling. These tables were provided by AAMC to an academic friend of mine and he forwarded them to me.

gonnif said:
This is incorrect

Applicants from California matriculate slightly higher than the overall applicant pool rate
In 2019, there were 6237 applicants from California with 2585 matriculating at US MD schools for 41.4% matriculation rate.
Over all in AMCAS, there 52777 applying and 21622 matriculating for a 41.0% matriculation rate
https://www.aamc.org/download/321460/data/factstablea3.pdf
https://www.aamc.org/download/321462/data/factstablea4.pdf

For DO schools, There were 2359 California residents applying with 901 matriculating at a rate of 38.2%
Overall in the country there were 20981 applying DO and 7415 matriculating at a 35.3% rate

https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...profile-summary-report.pdf?sfvrsn=28753a97_12
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

gonnif said:
I was specifically replying to comment that it was harder for californians to get into any medical school, not state schools. Since the goal of any student is to get any acceptance, not a specific subset of schools such as their own state schools, the matriculation in indeed the only relevant data. And that data shows Californians matriculate at above the national average.
Click to expand...
The degree of difficulty faced by a subset of applicants to medical school is best measured by the standards to which subsets of the applicant pool must meet to get admitted. The average MCAT and average GPA of California MATRICULANTS is higher than the national average every year. Californians are simply held to higher standards. The higher rate at which Californians get in may be affected by the fact that Californians have substantially higher incomes and apply to more schools and show up at more interviews.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
The higher rate at which Californians get in may be affected by the fact that Californians have substantially higher incomes and apply to more schools and show up at more interviews.
Click to expand...
Do you have evidence to support this contention?
 
gyngyn said:
Do you have evidence to support this contention?
Click to expand...
California in 2017 ranked 9th in median household income and 16th in per capita income

List of U.S. states and territories by income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
California ranked 10th in millionaires per capita
www.cnbc.com

States with the most millionaires per capita

The U.S. added more than 400,000 new millionaires last year, with most of those concentrated on the coasts in high-tax, predominantly blue states.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
California in 2017 ranked 9th in median household income and 16th in per capita income

List of U.S. states and territories by income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
California ranked 10th in millionaires per capita
www.cnbc.com

States with the most millionaires per capita

The U.S. added more than 400,000 new millionaires last year, with most of those concentrated on the coasts in high-tax, predominantly blue states.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
Click to expand...

California is second highest for cost of living, so being 9th in household income isn’t anything special. The number of millionaires per capita is also not a very telling statistic. A million dollars doesn’t buy that much home in California from a quick Zillow search. Keep in mind that a millionaire is not someone that makes a million dollars a year. It is someone with a million dollar net worth
 
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@gonnif
@gyngyn
@Obnoxious Dad
@Cornfed101
@Goro

I crunched some numbers to get to the bottom of this. I used AAMC Tables A-10 and A-11 which show the breakdown of race and state and here are the results:


California URM Success Rate: 41.1%
Total URM Success Rate: 37.4%

California ORM Success Rate: 42.4%
Total ORM Success Rate: 43.4%

Please note that in these calculations I have disregarded ambiguous race classifications such as "Other", "Unknown", "Multiple", etc in order to not contaminate the numbers.

Bottom Line: California ORMs are below the national average but California URMs are above the national average.

My guess is that it has to do with the undergraduate UC system. The undergraduate UC system is very Latino/Black friendly and has excellent pre-med opportunities, which gives California URMs a bump over other URMs. Another possible explanation might have to do with the UC PRIME programs and UCLA Drew program that attract high numbers of California URMs.

It's important to note, however, that over 80% of all applicants are ORM, so my point remains valid that California *ORMs* have it harder.
 
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TRexLife4 said:
@gonnif
@gyngyn
@Obnoxious Dad
@Cornfed101
@Goro

I crunched some numbers to get to the bottom of this. I used AAMC Tables A-10 and A-11 which show the breakdown of race and state and here are the results:


California URM Success Rate: 41.1%
Total URM Success Rate: 37.4%

California ORM Success Rate: 42.4%
Total ORM Success Rate: 43.4%

Please note that in these calculations I have disregarded ambiguous race classifications such as "Other", "Unknown", "Multiple", etc in order to not contaminate the numbers.

Bottom Line: California ORMs are below the national average but California URMs are above the national average.

My guess is that it has to do with the undergraduate UC system. The undergraduate UC system is very Latino/Black friendly and has excellent pre-med opportunities, which gives California URMs a bump over other URMs. Another possible explanation might have to do with the UC PRIME programs and UCLA Drew program that attract high numbers of California URMs.

It's important to note, however, that over 80% of all applicants are ORM, so my point remains valid that California *ORMs* have it harder.
Click to expand...
Of course they have it harder! UCLA alone produces enough pre-med graduates that they can fill every MD seat in the Golden State. This is why my DO school can garner up a fair number of MD-caliber students....they simply don't want to go to the East Coast, MD degree or no.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
California in 2017 ranked 9th in median household income and 16th in per capita income

List of U.S. states and territories by income - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
California ranked 10th in millionaires per capita
www.cnbc.com

States with the most millionaires per capita

The U.S. added more than 400,000 new millionaires last year, with most of those concentrated on the coasts in high-tax, predominantly blue states.
www.cnbc.com www.cnbc.com
Click to expand...
Until you can show me the proportion of CA applicants that comes from this subset (compared to other states), we are nowhere.
 
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TRexLife4 said:
The undergraduate UC system is very Latino/Black friendly and has excellent pre-med opportunities, which gives California URMs a bump over other URMs. Another possible explanation might have to do with the UC PRIME programs and UCLA Drew program that attract high numbers of California URMs.
Click to expand...
Accepting students and preparing them for a successful application are two entirely separate things.
The UC's are a heterogeneous group. Some do a pretty good job with pre-meds, others are just awful (especially with UiM).
You are right about the PRIME programs, though. It is likely that many kids that would otherwise not make it come through that process. These programs are pitifully small in comparison to the UiM mismatch in CA, however.

It is true that most Asian applicants come from the coasts and both coasts are tougher than the middle.

CA is a tough state because of the plentiful supply of very qualified applicants of every type and because only two of the public schools have a stated preference for IS candidates (UCR and UCD). It doesn't help that these two are relatively small.
 
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gyngyn said:
Until you can show me the proportion of CA applicants that comes from this subset, we are nowhere.
Click to expand...

The data are plain to see. Every year the average MCAT and GPA are higher for California applicants. If you can't see that it's more difficult for California medical school aspirants than med school wannabes from the rest of the country to get into an MD school, that's your problem not mine.

I suppose you believe that if a relatively high percentage of applicants from one state gets in, those applicants have an easier path than the rest of the country. This is the Gonnif hypothesis. Well, the percentage of applicants who get in is irrelevant because of self exclusion. The decision to apply to medical school is grounded in economics. If a medical school aspirant believes he or she has no shot of being admitted based on the admissions profile of matriculants coming from his/her home state, then the applicant probably won't waste his/her time and will move on and do something else. If an aspirant thinks he or she has a good shot, applications will be filed. You will find attached an EXCEL file of the average GPA and MCAT score for applicants, by state of residence, to allopathic medical school between 1997 and 2009. (Again this is provided by AAMC and I got it through an academic.) You will see, if you open your eyes, that states with low averages among matriculants have low averages among applicants. States with high averages among matriculants have high averages among applicants. Compare the average MCAT among applicants from California with applicants from the rest of applicant pool. You might also want to take a course in economics.

The medical community would have us believe that the medical school admissions process is hyper rational, empirically validated, meritocratic and conducted on a level playing field. Well, that's just malarkey. (Yes, my little darling is a board certified MD.) The likelihood that someone will get into medical school is highly dependent on the state in which the applicant calls home and the resources available to him/her. If an applicant with stats that meet the national average for matriculants comes from West Virginia, Mississippi, or North Dakota, that kid is in. If that kid is from California, Massachusetts or New Hampshire, that kid is going to osteopathy or nursing school.

Finally, here is a link to a Rand Corporation study from decades ago showing the impact of state of residence on the likelihood that a "good" applicant (based on various statistical characteristics) will be accepted to medical school.

Table 5 shows that a "good"ORM applicant from South Dakota had a 94% chance of gaining admission to medical school. However, a "good" applicant from California would have a 39% chance of gaining admission.

In the spirit of the U.S. Open, "game, set, match"!
 

Attachments

Obnoxious Dad said:
The data are plain to see. Every year the average MCAT and GPA are higher for California applicants. If you can't see that it's more difficult for California medical school aspirants than med school wannabes from the rest of the country to get into an MD school, that's your problem not mine.

I suppose you believe that if a relatively high percentage of applicants from one state gets in, those applicants have an easier path than the rest of the country. This is the Gonnif hypothesis. Well, the percentage of applicants who get in is irrelevant because of self exclusion. The decision to apply to medical school is grounded in economics. If a medical school aspirant believes he or she has no shot of being admitted based on the admissions profile of matriculants coming from his/her home state, then the applicant probably won't waste his/her time and will move on and do something else. If an aspirant thinks he or she has a good shot, applications will be filed. You will find attached an EXCEL file of the average GPA and MCAT score for applicants, by state of residence, to allopathic medical school between 1997 and 2009. (Again this is provided by AAMC and I got it through an academic.) You will see, if you open your eyes, that states with low averages among matriculants have low averages among applicants. States with high averages among matriculants have high averages among applicants. Compare the average MCAT among applicants from California with applicants from the rest of applicant pool. You might also want to take a course in economics.

The medical community would have us believe that the medical school admissions process is hyper rational, empirically validated, meritocratic and conducted on a level playing field. Well, that's just malarkey. (Yes, my little darling is a board certified MD.) The likelihood that someone will get into medical school is highly dependent on the state in which the applicant calls home and the resources available to him/her. If an applicant with stats that meet the national average for matriculants comes from West Virginia, Mississippi, or North Dakota, that kid is in. If that kid is from California, Massachusetts or New Hampshire, that kid is going to osteopathy or nursing school.

Finally, here is a link to a Rand Corporation study from decades ago showing the impact of state of residence on the likelihood that a "good" applicant (based on various statistical characteristics) will be accepted to medical school.

Table 5 shows that a "good"ORM applicant from South Dakota had a 94% chance of gaining admission to medical school. However, a "good" applicant from California would have a 39% chance of gaining admission.

In the spirit of the U.S. Open, "game, set, match"!
Click to expand...
You are missing my point.
In fact, I agree that the state of residence is the most important aspect of the the application that the applicant has little control over. That's why state of residence is one the more important questions asked in WAMC.
The point of contention is regarding the element of wealth (for which there is only very tangential support).
 
gyngyn said:
You are missing my point.
In fact, I agree that the state of residence is the most important aspect of the the application that the applicant has little control over. That's why state of residence is one the more important questions asked in WAMC.
The point of contention is regarding the element of wealth (for which there is only very tangential support).
Click to expand...
OK. I see. Sorry about my tone.

I do think that wealth is a factor (how much, I don't know) because of the cost of applying, interviewing etc. Furthermore, working class students may have to work part time during the school year which limits their ability to volunteer and be a lab slave.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
OK. I see. Sorry about my tone.

I do think that wealth is a factor (how much, I don't know) because of the cost of applying, interviewing etc. Furthermore, working class students may have to work part time during the school year which limits their ability to volunteer and be a lab slave.
Click to expand...
I completely agree.
 
gyngyn said:
Accepting students and preparing them for a successful application are two entirely separate things.
The UC's are a heterogeneous group. Some do a pretty good job with pre-meds, others are just awful (especially with UiM).
You are right about the PRIME programs, though. It is likely that many kids that would otherwise not make it come through that process. These programs are pitifully small in comparison to the UiM mismatch in CA, however.

It is true that most Asian applicants come from the coasts and both coasts are tougher than the middle.

CA is a tough state because of the plentiful supply of very qualified applicants of every type and because only two of the public schools have a stated preference for IS candidates (UCR and UCD). It doesn't help that these two are relatively small.
Click to expand...

What is your hypothesis regarding why California URMs do significantly better (~4% better) than the national average for all URMs?
 
TRexLife4 said:
What is your hypothesis regarding why California URMs do significantly better (~4% better) than the national average for all URMs?
Click to expand...
Did you do a statistical analysis to see if this is statistically significant? Also is the data showing that California URMs are doing significantly better than all other states or just some states?

Regardless I have a hypothesis as to why URMs in other states might suffer and it has a lot to do with the public education URMs receive. In midwestern states black students are significantly disadvantaged despite the midwest having some of the best public schools in the country. It has a lot to do with gerrymandering. The issue is deep rooted and has very little to do with med school admissions but rather politics surrounding political/school districts.
 
TRexLife4 said:
What is your hypothesis regarding why California URMs do significantly better (~4% better) than the national average for all URMs?
Click to expand...
Given the school differences in designation alone, I would not consider that to be significant.
 
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