Schools that reward reinvention?

[Necr0sis713]

My app is coming up and I was wondering if anyone could point me out to some sort of a list or resource that can show me which medical schools would be best to apply to, given my situation.

Does anyone know which schools reward reinvention? I'm gonna end up having around a 3.7 Science GPA, but 2.8 cumulative because I never took sciences before but was a psych major with a bad academic history. I took so many credits that my GPA barely moves up even with a semester of full 15 credit hours with all A's.

I'm hoping to show Adcoms that I was just more science competent, and found my "true passion" because I got all A's my first go at sciences. I'm also most likely going to be applying for SMP's at the same time.

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[228]

I'd like to know this too. I'm assuming that I'll only be able to go DO with those grades but yes same GPA range.


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[DrMidlife]

I'm curious where this "schools that reward reinvention" thing is coming from. There have been multiple threads asking this lately.

The short answer is "find the nontrad thread from the last week or so that has 'reward reinvention' in the title." There was a lengthy discussion.

My preferred short answer is "wrong question."

My longwinded answer: If people are saying "you need to find the med schools that reward reinvention" imho that's not useful information of any kind. Premed advisers, including several on SDN, are qualified to advise undamaged premeds. But premeds who need or who have accomplished GPA redemption are very difficult to advise. There's no formula, no recipe, and usually no anecdotes or access to recent success/failure cases. Some advisers know that SMPs exist, and their advice tends to be "look into SMPs" without taking responsibility for understanding that an SMP can cost you $50k+, require multiple cross country moves, decrease your odds at an instate public, and may be an academic endeavor that crushes and destroys you. (Or it can be successful. But wouldn't you want to know the actual downside? Like a surgical consent?) Some advisers know that DO schools exist, and may view "look into DO schools" as good advice, but again, it's not all that useful. Just like with MD schools, there is extreme variance among DO schools. Premed advisers definitely know about Carib schools, because of Carib school marketing (goddamn those posters are beautiful) directly at premed advisers.

I suggest that a responsible alternative to "find schools that reward reinvention" is "find med students and residents who sufficiently recovered from low GPAs to make it where they are". Or "find students that were rewarded for reinvention" if you must, but that sounds like the marketing department got ahold of you. SDN has more than a decade of collected commentary from probably 1000 "reinventors." I suggest that this body of work is the definitive source of information for navigating a GPA comeback. You should read a whole lot of it, if you want to be the grownup in charge of your fate.

It's relevant to ask "which schools do NOT reward reinvention" which may dredge up factoids such as (in my day) that DMU has a hard 3.0 minimum, that BS/MD schools aim young not old, and that OOS publics that otherwise have OOS-friendly numbers get SO MANY OOS apps that they're not good targets for the damaged.

tl;dr: search SDN on "low GPA", spend time finding the frequent posters referenced by others as authoritative on low GPA issues, find their post histories, and read their posts. Always question the source; any poster may actually be a malicious 13 year old girl in Malaysia.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Eccesignum]

I'm curious where this "schools that reward reinvention" thing is coming from. There have been multiple threads asking this lately.

Methinks it's a @Goro -ism 😉

 

[Necr0sis713]

I'm pretty happy actually. After doing some calculating I found out that after this semester if I get both A's (guaranteed) then i'll hit the 3.0 mark! and a 3.7-3.8 science gpa

By the way. Do I have to put pending class in AMCAS? Like courses I plan on taking during apps and secondaries

 

[occams_razor]

By the way. Do I have to put pending class in AMCAS? Like courses I plan on taking during apps and secondaries

You can, but they are not binding. I put a bunch of classes that I ended up not being able to take after getting a new job

 

[Goro]

I believe that I was the one who coined the reinvention thing. I came up with it after reading several posts from people who aced SMps and MCAT and got into some very good MD schools.

Reinvention for MD means acing a post-bac (3.6+) or SMP and acing MCAT (~514+ or 33+ on the old exam).

OP, the trick for you will be to get human eyeballs on your app, as a < 3.0 GPA will get autoscreened at many schools. Suggest contacting a few admissions deans to see if they'd be receptive.

Reinvention is easier at DO schools thanks to grade replacement.

For MD schools, one can target:

Your state school
Tulane
NYMC
Albany
Drexel
Gtown
GWU
U Miami
BU
Duke
Columbia
UCSF
Case
Vandy
Rosy Franklin
New MD schools (but I can't recommend CNU)

My app is coming up and I was wondering if anyone could point me out to some sort of a list or resource that can show me which medical schools would be best to apply to, given my situation.

Does anyone know which schools reward reinvention? I'm gonna end up having around a 3.7 Science GPA, but 2.8 cumulative because I never took sciences before but was a psych major with a bad academic history. I took so many credits that my GPA barely moves up even with a semester of full 15 credit hours with all A's.

I'm hoping to show Adcoms that I was just more science competent, and found my "true passion" because I got all A's my first go at sciences. I'm also most likely going to be applying for SMP's at the same time.

 

[DrMidlife]

I believe that I was the one who coined the reinvention thing. I came up with it after reading several posts from people who aced SMps and MCAT and got into some very good MD schools.

Wait, you're saying your advice is based on reading SDN stories? I'm surprised by this, as you have a faculty badge and thus enjoy the privilege of an authoritative voice on SDN. I hope you might consider adding your credentials to your signature.

As to your advice, I consider it irresponsible to leave out cumulative GPA. SMP and MCAT do nothing for you with unredeemed undergrad damage.

 

[Goro]

Yup, small n's, but these success stories seem to have a consistency to them. A number of MD schools (like U UT) post on their websites that they give more weight to the last 2-3 years of a candidate's record. Obviously, people's mileage may vary, but these outliers do seem to have some common roots.

These are: post-graduate GPA of 3.6+
High MCAT
> cookie cutter ECs. Work experience in a medical field seems to help. Obviously, being a non-trad allows one to accrue more time to accumulate EC hours.

I don't remember what year it was, but someone (a non URM) made it into Vandy with a 2.9 cGPA. Vandy!!

My learned colleague @gonnif can share some similar viewpoints, I'll wager.

Wait, you're saying your advice is based on reading SDN stories? I'm surprised by this, as you have a faculty badge and thus enjoy the privilege of an authoritative voice on SDN. I hope you might consider adding your credentials to your signature.

As to your advice, I consider it irresponsible to leave out cumulative GPA. SMP and MCAT do nothing for you with unredeemed undergrad damage.

 

[GrapesofRath]

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/gms/mams-gra...admitted-to-the-following-us-medical-schools/
http://www.evms.edu/education/masters_programs/medical_masters_program/faqs/
http://publichealth.tufts.edu/~/media/PHPD/PHPD PDFs/Academics/Professional Schools MBS Students Have Been Accepted To.pdf
https://smp.georgetown.edu/alumni
https://med.uc.edu/msinphysiology/alumni/meet-the-class-of-2013

Vanderbilt Pitt U Chicago Pritzker Michigan Northwestern Mt Sinai NYU USC Emory Duke Columbia Case Western UVA UNC Yale Ohio State All UC schools(including UCSF)

If you spend enough time going through all SMP websites youll find a graduate of an SMP who has gotten into the vast majority of the top med schools in the country. Boston U and Tufts in particular seem to have success with this. I listd the top schools covered above on this list.

It's just a matter of being realistic and what is most likely. All these things are rare. G'Town the most well known and largest SMP arguably hasnt gotten someone into a top 20 school since 2011. But if you do well in an SMP as long as your GPA is above 3.0 or a level that wont get you auto screened out, odds are you are fairly likely to get into an MD school if the rest of your application is MD caliber which is the bottom line.

The way to redeem UG damage is through an SMP in many ways as long as your GPA is above the pt it wont get screened out(ie >3.0). That's really why SMP's exist; it's hard to do much with a 3.1-3.2 to move your GPA to a competitive level. That's where the SMP comes in.

 

[Necr0sis713]

Thanks for the help folks. Looks like after this semester if I get both A's (highly likely) I'm gonna hit the 3.0 mark. So my situation isn't as hopeless as I thought... I've been doing pretty good on my MCAT practice exams thus far, so things are turning out pretty good. Let's see my luck this cycle.

 

[DrMidlife]

Once you've done everything you can do to redeem a poor undergrad record, then you have maybe fought your way back onto the same field the normal kids are playing on. And on that field, 60% of MD applicants are rejected. Some years it's just 55%. SMPs aren't a slip-n-slide into an MD school. Not an eraser. No guarantee. No refunds.

A Gtown/Cincy/Drexel/Loyola/Tufts/EVMS/RFU/etc SMP grad who got into Famous Med School has nothing to do with you until proven otherwise. The schools that publish lists of their alumni's med schools don't give you the alumni cuGPAs, MCATs, publications, URM status, or Native American percentage. Or that their dad played lacrosse with the dean of admissions etc. Nor do schools mention the cost of attendance of the normal post-SMP med schools, which are all over $300k.

"Hit the 3.0 mark" doesn't spare you from the review that happens if/when you make it through the auto-reject phase in MD admissions. Undergrad grades are gonna get scrutinized. All of 'em. 3.0 cumulative work against the squeaky clean competition in the pile doesn't make people delighted to see you. The schools you can get into, eventually, with a complete and compelling app and all the compensation for that 3.0 you can squeeze out of yourself, with the luck it takes to land in front of a pair of eyeballs that will give you just enough benefit of the doubt to keep reading and see the compelling rest-of-your-app, those are darned likely to have cost of attendance over $300k. In reality, it's $400k or more, once you add the cost of the GPA redemption.

I get uppity about this, specifically, because of the deep bitterness of my SMP classmates, and those who came after. You're gonna feel entitled to an MD admission when you're doing the work in an SMP. You're gonna feel like you're owed a clear expectation of what your host school is going to "do" with you. You'll feel the same way about all of your home state publics. And the deep bitterness of my classmates and those who came after who didn't get into MD schools...or didn't get in until a 2nd or 3rd app year...or went DO or Carib - that bitterness is really something to behold. The ones who give up after doing an SMP have a really hard time facing their friends from premed years. Pain. I think people should know about the pain. I'd love to help people avoid that pain.

So let me reiterate my formula for GPA redemption:
1. Do what the normal kids do. If you didn't get it done in 4 years of undergrad, you still have to do the same amount of successful work as a normal premed does in 4 years. Sometimes more.
2. That means you need multiple very strong academic years in undergrad, usually mostly science. (If your cumulative numbers don't go up far enough after a streak of multiple strong undergrad years, then that SMP or a rigorous masters with thesis, or both, is what you do next.)
3. That means you need a confidence-inspiring MCAT performance that doesn't come after a streak of sub-500s. The last thing you want to do in med school is to need more than one try to get past a board exam. Or to seem like you will.
4. That means you need activities proving you've been exposed to the underbelly of patient care in the US, and you've preferably had some exposure to research so you can be convinced that Wakefield used malicious dirtbag methods and is not the savior of the world's children.
5. That means you need to be able to do a lengthy and convincing impression of a mature professional, under duress.
6. Put the yardstick down. You just can't use the advice that applies to the normal kids.
7. Regularly re-evaluate and be willing to quit.

This is usually the point where people get their butts chapped over how "negative" I'm being. SDN has a nice ignore feature - you can turn me off completely. I could care less. Match day in 5 days 17 hours. From a cuGPA of 2.69, bitches.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Necr0sis713]

Thanks. I'm actually in a rut now. I made a mistake and missed a whole category while calculating my GPA, because I just used my institution credits. After this semester i'm gonna be at a 2.8 cumulative, 3.8 science, 3.8+ post bacc GPA, and 3.7ish last 60 credit hours GPA.

I racked up so many credits that my GPA barely moves up from grades, so I would need a full extra year just to get my GPA up to 3.0. I mean...I finished all of my science prereqs, so i'm gonna have to just take a bunch of electives. I plan on taking courses while applying though, and am going to be applying for as many SMP's as I can.

 

[DrMidlife]

Thanks. I'm actually in a rut now. I made a mistake and missed a whole category while calculating my GPA, because I just used my institution credits. After this semester i'm gonna be at a 2.8 cumulative, 3.8 science, 3.8+ post bacc GPA, and 3.7ish last 60 credit hours GPA.

I racked up so many credits that my GPA barely moves up from grades, so I would need a full extra year just to get my GPA up to 3.0. I mean...I finished all of my science prereqs, so i'm gonna have to just take a bunch of electives. I plan on taking courses while applying though, and am going to be applying for as many SMP's as I can.

If I'm reviewing your app, a few years from now, I'd want to see your narrative built up so that I have this reaction:
"Jeez, why am I reviewing a sub-3.0 app, ok fine, it's an instate kid, alright, let's see recent work - oh good, there we go. Biochem, micro, ethics, epi, all strong, did he/she get any letters from those profs - ok there we go...'this student showed exceptional <whatever> yada yada'. MCAT is...ok that's around <nicely above average>th percentile, good, OK so let's give this a good go-over. Any red flags? Everything strong? Not missing any basics? Something reasonably impressive in the ECs? OK another look over the coursework, a bit more in depth, yikes those are some rough early years, ok now we're seeing some strength, keeps going, harder science coursework, still strong. Alright. Oh, did <reputable SMP>, that's good, is there a letter...okay that's stable. Now let's see that essay, is this kid and/or his/her support system able to produce writing better than a can of paint? Well ok, that's digestible and ties things together and I don't feel assaulted by adjective bloat. <Sits back, pulls glasses off, rubs eyes> for crying out loud we have how many apps this year? 8400? And we're interviewing how many? This app is risky paper compared to the last 4 I sent to interview, so do I have a case to make for putting this kid through. Hmm. Yeah, there's maturity, there's persistence, I'm feeling a bit more interested in talking to this kid in person than the last 4, and just like every interview we're going to see very quickly if this is about the kid or about the kid's parents. So how do I feel about this kid vs. the other nontrads, the former Navy pilot and the Olympic rower who was a Sudanese lost boy, well, we have to see how those folks hold up in an interview too, and if they hold up well they're going to hold up well at their other schools, vs. this kid who is below that threshold. So does this kid add depth to our interview pool? Do I want this kid more than the last 4 3.8/514's who have never done their own laundry and will almost certainly get accepted at the name up the street that their parents will prefer? I do. Fine. Interview. Next."

Let me emphasize how the above is prioritized to find the most likely rejection points and to efficiently get through a large pile of apps where there's no downside to missing a borderline applicant because there are maybe 2500 borderline applicants at any low tier school in any given year.

When you think about your med school essay, do you have a hook? Is there a descriptor that I'm going to use for you, ie "the basketball one" or "the Peace Corps one, Cameroon or something" or a similarly unique and notable hook that shatters the cookie cutter? Yes? No? With your level of GPA damage, I suggest that you very much need to be some species of unicorn. A meaty paper about calcium channels. Prison health. RAM coordinator more than once with a letter from Himself. Lost 150 pounds. Sings with the MTC since age 15. Etc.

Hope that helps.

Best of luck to you.
Key:
RAM is Remote Area Medical
Himself is Stan Brock
MTC is Mormon Tabernacle Choir

 

[Necr0sis713]

Very well illustrated. My only crutch I can say is that this is my first time taking sciences, and I'm getting my 3.87 GPA straight up without having a first attempt at it...so that can show adcoms i'm good at science.

When I first got into college I didn't really know what I wanted to be, and took my music very seriously. I decided to focus on building my skills as a musician (songwriting, instruments, recording, open mics/acoustic shows, etc.) and didn't really take my school too seriously. I was also too young to really know the value of the implications of what I was doing to my school (just ignoring it; C's will get my degree mentality, etc.)

I hear a lot of SMP's accept based on your last 60 credit hours, so hopefully that'll work in my favor.

 

[DrMidlife]

I hear a lot of SMP's accept based on your last 60 credit hours, so hopefully that'll work in my favor.

If "60 credit hours" is 2 full time years of fresh strong work, then you are taking the SMP and the post-SMP app into consideration.

I have learned not to trust people's ability to hear that an SMP is not magic.

 

[Necr0sis713]

If "60 credit hours" is 2 full time years of fresh strong work, then you are taking the SMP and the post-SMP app into consideration.

I have learned not to trust people's ability to hear that an SMP is not magic.

Think i'm shooting myself in the foot if i'm not open to DO?

 

[Goro]

Beggars can't be choosy. It's a seller's market for medical schools, and they can afford to turn away many talented people.

Think i'm shooting myself in the foot if i'm not open to DO?

 

[DrMidlife]

Think i'm shooting myself in the foot if i'm not open to DO?

All things considered I regret not going to LECOM Bradenton where I was waitlisted once upon a time. Much less expensive as a school and as an overall GPA comeback strategy. Wouldn't have needed an SMP, and I'd be in my 2nd year of residency right now. PBL is perfect for me. I'm so not a Florida person, but I'm so not a Virginia person either.

I think it's nearly impossible to know now what's going to matter to you once you start lining up your ducks for residency apps, half way or so through M3 year. Med school changes people. Whatever's broken when you start, it's more broken on the other side. There can be substantial, almost unavoidable misery throughout. Your reasons for pursuing a career as a physician may be completely different 4 years from now. Mine are. Turns out I'm not psychic.

I think that a crap Step 1 score at a low tier USMD school completely neutralizes the glitter of USMD. No benefit of USMD over DO at that threshold. It would be completely ridiculous to try to game what Step 1 score you'll have. 100% of your classmates want a killer Step 1 score, and less than 50% are going to get one.

The premed viewpoint on DO is completely ridiculous. It is a grandiose paranoid uninformed overgeneralization. DO vs. MD only matters, sometimes, after your scores & specialty & life circumstances are baked and you're mapping out the last half of your M3 year and your M4 year to get yourself optimally positioned for the best residencies you can pursue. Want to bet about $150k on what your exact scores, specialty & life circumstances are going to be in 3-5 years? Do you have any basis to predict whether being MD vs. DO is even going to be on the top 20 list of things that determine your residency and practice choices?

More to the point, do you know any DOs? Any DO residents? Any MD residents? Any IMGs? Any miserable MDs? Any docs outside academics? If you did, would you even know what to ask them, to help you understand all this?

Pretty much all premeds are flying blind. Haven't had a real job before. Haven't had to face the consequences of a making a major life choice. Haven't had experiences of self discovery that expose limitations and preferences. Haven't been on the planet long enough to know the self, and more importantly the self under duress. And even though I had all that on board when I started med school, an extra 20 years of it, I was flying blind too.

It's completely legitimate to have location or debt or access to ice hockey rinks or finding a spouse as your #1 priority in your GPA comeback. Be honest with yourself about what you really care about. DO vs. MD is an abstraction. Find the concrete.

Probably made things worse with this. The beautiful struggle.

 

[Necr0sis713]

Well you certainly are getting me thinking very deeply about this. DrMidlife. It looks like my only choice is to do whatever I take to maximize my chances. I'm gonna be applying this cycle and taking courses during the year-long wait. Then if I don't get accepted at least I would have used my time to get more beef for my app.

I'm praying to get accepted to at least an SMP

 

[cabinbuilder]

All things considered I regret not going to LECOM Bradenton where I was waitlisted once upon a time. Much less expensive as a school and as an overall GPA comeback strategy. Wouldn't have needed an SMP, and I'd be in my 2nd year of residency right now. PBL is perfect for me. I'm so not a Florida person, but I'm so not a Virginia person either.

I think it's nearly impossible to know now what's going to matter to you once you start lining up your ducks for residency apps, half way or so through M3 year. Med school changes people. Whatever's broken when you start, it's more broken on the other side. There can be substantial, almost unavoidable misery throughout. Your reasons for pursuing a career as a physician may be completely different 4 years from now. Mine are. Turns out I'm not psychic.

I think that a crap Step 1 score at a low tier USMD school completely neutralizes the glitter of USMD. No benefit of USMD over DO at that threshold. It would be completely ridiculous to try to game what Step 1 score you'll have. 100% of your classmates want a killer Step 1 score, and less than 50% are going to get one.

The premed viewpoint on DO is completely ridiculous. It is a grandiose paranoid uninformed overgeneralization. DO vs. MD only matters, sometimes, after your scores & specialty & life circumstances are baked and you're mapping out the last half of your M3 year and your M4 year to get yourself optimally positioned for the best residencies you can pursue. Want to bet about $150k on what your exact scores, specialty & life circumstances are going to be in 3-5 years? Do you have any basis to predict whether being MD vs. DO is even going to be on the top 20 list of things that determine your residency and practice choices?

More to the point, do you know any DOs? Any DO residents? Any MD residents? Any IMGs? Any miserable MDs? Any docs outside academics? If you did, would you even know what to ask them, to help you understand all this?

Pretty much all premeds are flying blind. Haven't had a real job before. Haven't had to face the consequences of a making a major life choice. Haven't had experiences of self discovery that expose limitations and preferences. Haven't been on the planet long enough to know the self, and more importantly the self under duress. And even though I had all that on board when I started med school, an extra 20 years of it, I was flying blind too.

It's completely legitimate to have location or debt or access to ice hockey rinks or finding a spouse as your #1 priority in your GPA comeback. Be honest with yourself about what you really care about. DO vs. MD is an abstraction. Find the concrete.

Probably made things worse with this. The beautiful struggle.

THIS POST HANDS DOWN IS THE MOST TRUTHFUL REALITY ON SDN. Way To State the Truth @DrMidlife

 

[Necr0sis713]

Does anyone know some really good SMP programs, like highly recommended and where you think I might have a chance? I mean programs that are pretty reputable and such.

Or is the AAMC list sufficient?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Does anyone know some really good SMP programs, like highly recommended and where you think I might have a chance? I mean programs that are pretty reputable and such.

Or is the AAMC list sufficient?

Depends on your MCAT. If your cGPA is only 2.8 it's in your interest to really try and boost it >3.0 as that can spare you the act of "being screened out" at many places. As the venerable DrMidLife has written the equivalent of PhD dissertations aboout, >3.0 wont spare you further analysis/questioning/concern about your GPA, but it's a key first of many steps.

I posted the links of many of the most well known SMP programs above. At programs like Cincy, Tufts, G-town historically anywhere from about 60-75% of the people who enter those programs get into US MD schools. Those are the highest rates youll find but the MCAT avg's of these programs are also high(Cincy is at 33-34 for their SMP). These are also the most rigorous programs; nothing is given, everything is earned, nothing is guaranteed even if you do well. But if you do well, you could say these are the programs your efforts are most likely to be rewarded.

Boston U has a good reputation although I dont know how many of their grads get into US MD programs. Same with Loyola MAMs. EVMS, Rosalind, Toledo etc are programs built primarily for you to get into that host institution. Problem is these programs keep expanding and taking more SMP students while not taking anymore students into their MD schools; not the ideal combination.

For now focus on the MCAT. You need an MD caliber application beyond your cGPA to even consider an SMP. If you dont have the MCAT and other stuff, grade replacement and the DO route is likely the one to pursue. Worry about SMP specifics later.

 

[Goro]

Mods, please sticky!!!!

All things considered I regret not going to LECOM Bradenton where I was waitlisted once upon a time. Much less expensive as a school and as an overall GPA comeback strategy. Wouldn't have needed an SMP, and I'd be in my 2nd year of residency right now. PBL is perfect for me. I'm so not a Florida person, but I'm so not a Virginia person either.

I think it's nearly impossible to know now what's going to matter to you once you start lining up your ducks for residency apps, half way or so through M3 year. Med school changes people. Whatever's broken when you start, it's more broken on the other side. There can be substantial, almost unavoidable misery throughout. Your reasons for pursuing a career as a physician may be completely different 4 years from now. Mine are. Turns out I'm not psychic.

I think that a crap Step 1 score at a low tier USMD school completely neutralizes the glitter of USMD. No benefit of USMD over DO at that threshold. It would be completely ridiculous to try to game what Step 1 score you'll have. 100% of your classmates want a killer Step 1 score, and less than 50% are going to get one.

The premed viewpoint on DO is completely ridiculous. It is a grandiose paranoid uninformed overgeneralization. DO vs. MD only matters, sometimes, after your scores & specialty & life circumstances are baked and you're mapping out the last half of your M3 year and your M4 year to get yourself optimally positioned for the best residencies you can pursue. Want to bet about $150k on what your exact scores, specialty & life circumstances are going to be in 3-5 years? Do you have any basis to predict whether being MD vs. DO is even going to be on the top 20 list of things that determine your residency and practice choices?

More to the point, do you know any DOs? Any DO residents? Any MD residents? Any IMGs? Any miserable MDs? Any docs outside academics? If you did, would you even know what to ask them, to help you understand all this?

Pretty much all premeds are flying blind. Haven't had a real job before. Haven't had to face the consequences of a making a major life choice. Haven't had experiences of self discovery that expose limitations and preferences. Haven't been on the planet long enough to know the self, and more importantly the self under duress. And even though I had all that on board when I started med school, an extra 20 years of it, I was flying blind too.

It's completely legitimate to have location or debt or access to ice hockey rinks or finding a spouse as your #1 priority in your GPA comeback. Be honest with yourself about what you really care about. DO vs. MD is an abstraction. Find the concrete.

Probably made things worse with this. The beautiful struggle.

 

[Goro]

They're a dime-a-dozen.

PCOM, Drexel, Gtown, Mt Sinai, Rosy Franklin, Western, BU, LECOM come to mind.

Does anyone know some really good SMP programs, like highly recommended and where you think I might have a chance? I mean programs that are pretty reputable and such.

Or is the AAMC list sufficient?

 

[DrMidlife]

the postbac forum down under interdisciplinary has a decade of discussion from current & former SMP students. info changes year to year, and there are always programs very excited to call themselves SMPs when there's no S to be found.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Necr0sis713]

SMP application timelines are the same right? As in, if I apply this cycle I start fall 2017?

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

All things considered I regret not going to LECOM Bradenton where I was waitlisted once upon a time. Much less expensive as a school and as an overall GPA comeback strategy. Wouldn't have needed an SMP, and I'd be in my 2nd year of residency right now. PBL is perfect for me. I'm so not a Florida person, but I'm so not a Virginia person either.

I think it's nearly impossible to know now what's going to matter to you once you start lining up your ducks for residency apps, half way or so through M3 year. Med school changes people. Whatever's broken when you start, it's more broken on the other side. There can be substantial, almost unavoidable misery throughout. Your reasons for pursuing a career as a physician may be completely different 4 years from now. Mine are. Turns out I'm not psychic.

I think that a crap Step 1 score at a low tier USMD school completely neutralizes the glitter of USMD. No benefit of USMD over DO at that threshold. It would be completely ridiculous to try to game what Step 1 score you'll have. 100% of your classmates want a killer Step 1 score, and less than 50% are going to get one.

The premed viewpoint on DO is completely ridiculous. It is a grandiose paranoid uninformed overgeneralization. DO vs. MD only matters, sometimes, after your scores & specialty & life circumstances are baked and you're mapping out the last half of your M3 year and your M4 year to get yourself optimally positioned for the best residencies you can pursue. Want to bet about $150k on what your exact scores, specialty & life circumstances are going to be in 3-5 years? Do you have any basis to predict whether being MD vs. DO is even going to be on the top 20 list of things that determine your residency and practice choices?

More to the point, do you know any DOs? Any DO residents? Any MD residents? Any IMGs? Any miserable MDs? Any docs outside academics? If you did, would you even know what to ask them, to help you understand all this?

Pretty much all premeds are flying blind. Haven't had a real job before. Haven't had to face the consequences of a making a major life choice. Haven't had experiences of self discovery that expose limitations and preferences. Haven't been on the planet long enough to know the self, and more importantly the self under duress. And even though I had all that on board when I started med school, an extra 20 years of it, I was flying blind too.

It's completely legitimate to have location or debt or access to ice hockey rinks or finding a spouse as your #1 priority in your GPA comeback. Be honest with yourself about what you really care about. DO vs. MD is an abstraction. Find the concrete.

Probably made things worse with this. The beautiful struggle.

HOLY BLEEP! Got the shivers... I don't wear a hat, but hats off...

 

[alpinism]

All things considered I regret not going to LECOM Bradenton where I was waitlisted once upon a time. Much less expensive as a school and as an overall GPA comeback strategy. Wouldn't have needed an SMP, and I'd be in my 2nd year of residency right now. PBL is perfect for me. I'm so not a Florida person, but I'm so not a Virginia person either.

I think it's nearly impossible to know now what's going to matter to you once you start lining up your ducks for residency apps, half way or so through M3 year. Med school changes people. Whatever's broken when you start, it's more broken on the other side. There can be substantial, almost unavoidable misery throughout. Your reasons for pursuing a career as a physician may be completely different 4 years from now. Mine are. Turns out I'm not psychic.

I think that a crap Step 1 score at a low tier USMD school completely neutralizes the glitter of USMD. No benefit of USMD over DO at that threshold. It would be completely ridiculous to try to game what Step 1 score you'll have. 100% of your classmates want a killer Step 1 score, and less than 50% are going to get one.

The premed viewpoint on DO is completely ridiculous. It is a grandiose paranoid uninformed overgeneralization. DO vs. MD only matters, sometimes, after your scores & specialty & life circumstances are baked and you're mapping out the last half of your M3 year and your M4 year to get yourself optimally positioned for the best residencies you can pursue. Want to bet about $150k on what your exact scores, specialty & life circumstances are going to be in 3-5 years? Do you have any basis to predict whether being MD vs. DO is even going to be on the top 20 list of things that determine your residency and practice choices?

More to the point, do you know any DOs? Any DO residents? Any MD residents? Any IMGs? Any miserable MDs? Any docs outside academics? If you did, would you even know what to ask them, to help you understand all this?

Pretty much all premeds are flying blind. Haven't had a real job before. Haven't had to face the consequences of a making a major life choice. Haven't had experiences of self discovery that expose limitations and preferences. Haven't been on the planet long enough to know the self, and more importantly the self under duress. And even though I had all that on board when I started med school, an extra 20 years of it, I was flying blind too.

It's completely legitimate to have location or debt or access to ice hockey rinks or finding a spouse as your #1 priority in your GPA comeback. Be honest with yourself about what you really care about. DO vs. MD is an abstraction. Find the concrete.

Probably made things worse with this. The beautiful struggle.

While I agree with much of your post, the bolded part is not so black and white in my opinion.

While it might be true for less competitive specialties and programs that are more DO friendly, there are still quite a few specialties and programs out there who absolutely prefer MD grads all things being equal. This includes applicants with low step 1 scores coming from low tier MD schools.

In EM for example there are still a number of MD programs who don't even consider DO applicants regardless of their scores and grades. I.e. you can be in the top 10% of your class with a 250 and you still won't get an interview. At the same time they'll invite MD applicants with a 215 step 1 as long as the rest of their app is solid.

Even with a crap step 1 score, your average MD applicant can still expect to receive a decent number of interviews as long as they apply broadly to a good mix of programs. Now compare this to your average DO applicant with a crap step 1 score and you'll find that its basically a death sentence for MD programs and most faculty advisers recommend skipping the MD match altogether and just applying to AOA programs.

FWIW I did the Gtown SMP to MD route and would also be a 2nd year resident if I had gone the DO route instead. In my case around half of the programs I ended up ranking either don't interview DOs or only interview those with sky high step 1 scores. For me personally, it ended up helping a great deal since I'd much rather go to a great residency program rather than graduate 2 years earlier. But that's just my opinion and YMMV.

 

[DrMidlife]

SMP application timelines are the same right? As in, if I apply this cycle I start fall 2017?

No. Seriously visit the postbac forum. Programs vary. Apply Oct-Jan to start a program 7-10 months later.

 

[Necr0sis713]

No. Seriously visit the postbac forum. Programs vary. Apply Oct-Jan to start a program 7-10 months later.

Thanks. I always skipped over that subforum because I thought it pertained just to postbacc (undergrad) courses, but it seems to have a lot of useful info on SMP's too.

 

[DrMidlife]

While I agree with much of your post, the bolded part is not so black and white in my opinion.

(I'm sleep deprived. Humor me and pretend the following is as friendly and civil as I wish I could make it. Not trying to pick a fight.)

The N=1 interview a USMD with a 215 gets at a program that rejects qualified non-smelly 250s, where that USMD with the 215 gets ranked highly enough to match, and is thus vindicated in spending extra years and a lot of extra debt to get into USMD vs DO, is so far off the bell curve that I can't take it seriously in a thread that's about choosing MD vs DO from a sub-3.0.

In a thread where the OP has a sub-3.0 and is afraid to consider DO schools, let's stay in the 95% CI, shall we?

 

[DrMidlife]

For those playing along at home, trying to put the MD vs. DO thing in context, I suggest familiarizing yourself with some key tables in the NRMP match data. http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Main-Match-Results-and-Data-2015_final.pdf

Table 4: Applicants in the Matching Program
- Overall US MD match rate is 93.9%.
- Overall DO match rate in the NRMP match is 79.3%. (The "DO" match is before the NRMP match. I assume 79.3% reflects that DOs are pulled from NRMP after the DO match.)

Table 1: Match Summary
- This table tells you the per-specialty USMD match rate.
- Non-USMD per-specialty match rates are not available. DO/IMG/FMG are combined.
- It matters whether a specialty is categorical or has a prelim year. Many specialties have both.
- Example #1: The USMD match rate for EM is 1438/1613 = 89%. 99.6% filled. The remaining 10% went to USMD do-overs, DOs and IMGs.
- Example #2: The USMD match rate for Ortho is 663/885 = 75%. 100% filled. The remaining 25% went to USMD do-overs, DOs and IMGs. (There are still a lot of "DO" ortho residencies, always have been, musculoskeletal yada yada)
- Example #3: USMD IM is 3317/3919 = 85%. 98.9% filled. 6698 positions went to docs who aren't graduating USMDs.

Key point: NRMP data says nothing about how awesome vs. sucky the residency positions are. That would be subjective.

 

[alpinism]

(I'm sleep deprived. Humor me and pretend the following is as friendly and civil as I wish I could make it. Not trying to pick a fight.)

The N=1 interview a USMD with a 215 gets at a program that rejects qualified non-smelly 250s, where that USMD with the 215 gets ranked highly enough to match, and is thus vindicated in spending extra years and a lot of extra debt to get into USMD vs DO, is so far off the bell curve that I can't take it seriously in a thread that's about choosing MD vs DO from a sub-3.0.

In a thread where the OP has a sub-3.0 and is afraid to consider DO schools, let's stay in the 95% CI, shall we?

I was only referring to the bolded part of your post (having a crap step 1 score neutralizes the MD advantage).

In the OP's case DO is the best option. Especially considering he has a sub 3.0 GPA and no MCAT.

 

[Necr0sis713]

I was only referring to the bolded part of your post (having a crap step 1 score neutralizes the MD advantage).

In the OP's case DO is the best option. Especially considering he has a sub 3.0 GPA and no MCAT.

Well I plan on taking the MCAT, and don't forget my post bacc GPA is 3.7-3.8 and my science GPA is around that much too. I didn't major in science and do bad the first time. This is my first time with sciences so that's my only crutch here.

 

[DrMidlife]

Well I plan on taking the MCAT, and don't forget my post bacc GPA is 3.7-3.8 and my science GPA is around that much too. I didn't major in science and do bad the first time. This is my first time with sciences so that's my only crutch here.

Right there you spent more time thinking about your transcript trend than any reviewer is likely to. Also "don't forget" implies that others care as much as you do about your particulars, and are really focused on your story. Riveted by it.

As much as I've invested in this thread, this is about the 5000th time I've commented on a GPA comeback on SDN. In 2 minutes I won't remember your story any more than a thread I contributed to last week.

Your reviewers in med school apps saw patients this morning and have to go home and take care of their families and do it again tomorrow. You get one of their fleeting moments while they're plowing through a pile of apps. If they like your app, the next time they see it they'll have no memory of ever seeing it before until they give it another fleeting moment. And by god make sure you give them an "oh yeah, this one" response on that next view.

 

[sammiesings]

Hate to revive a few month old thread, and not exactly sure my question is all that relevant, HOWEVER, do the adcom/faculty/post-grad folks here have any thoughts on why the higher ranked schools tend to be more favorable to "reinvention" than applicants think/their MSAR stats would indicate?

My only guess is that this has something to do with the numbers game- as in less folks with less than stellar stats apply to them, so there's more of a chance to be seen? Or does this also have something to do with "money" that I don't understand? Maybe something like, they can afford to take a risk on a candidate more so than a less well funded school?

 

[Necr0sis713]

An admissions counselor I spoke with who has years of experience told me that schools follow GPA rules strictly because they have to keep their average GPA up for stats and so they "look good"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sammiesings]

An admissions counselor I spoke with who has years of experience told me that schools follow GPA rules strictly because they have to keep their average GPA up for stats and so they "look good"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i've also heard that.

it sounds like that supports my theory then, at least in some ways. the higher stat schools will take on a lower stat person whose redeemed themselves because the school's overall range will not go down by much since the rest of their class will be high performing?

but then, there are the schools like Northwestern, WashU or NYU who I don't think would ever let a low stat person in no matter how much "redemption" they've presented.

interested to see what the original players in this conversation have to say (@Goro , @DrMidlife ) as well as @LizzyM and @gyngyn. However, it appears the takeaway for reinventers is exactly what Dr. MidLife has said- be a good applicant and you have a shot at many more schools than you imagined you would?

 

[QofQuimica]

Hate to revive a few month old thread, and not exactly sure my question is all that relevant, HOWEVER, do the adcom/faculty/post-grad folks here have any thoughts on why the higher ranked schools tend to be more favorable to "reinvention" than applicants think/their MSAR stats would indicate?

My only guess is that this has something to do with the numbers game- as in less folks with less than stellar stats apply to them, so there's more of a chance to be seen? Or does this also have something to do with "money" that I don't understand? Maybe something like, they can afford to take a risk on a candidate more so than a less well funded school?

Adcoms are looking for applicants who meet their school's mission. If you read through the MSAR, you will see that different med schools have different goals. Some schools focus more on attracting high stat applicants as part of their mission. Some focus on attracting people with research career interests, or with plans to work in underserved communities, or with interesting and varied backgrounds who they deem might be "future leaders" in medicine. Most schools have multiple focuses, but there will be one or two major ones for every school. Your goal should be to match your career mission with the school's main training mission. My current employer, for example, is a state school, so whether an applicant is a state resident/likely to end up practicing in FL is one of the biggest considerations. That being said, a few non-Floridians can still get in if they have other exceptional characteristics. It also helps if they have ties to this state. And in spite of what you may read on SDN, having stellar stats will never hurt you. Medical schools are not charities. They all want the best applicants they can possibly get, however they define "best."

 

[Prometheus123]

If I'm reviewing your app, a few years from now, I'd want to see your narrative built up so that I have this reaction:
"Jeez, why am I reviewing a sub-3.0 app, ok fine, it's an instate kid, alright, let's see recent work - oh good, there we go. Biochem, micro, ethics, epi, all strong, did he/she get any letters from those profs - ok there we go...'this student showed exceptional <whatever> yada yada'. MCAT is...ok that's around <nicely above average>th percentile, good, OK so let's give this a good go-over. Any red flags? Everything strong? Not missing any basics? Something reasonably impressive in the ECs? OK another look over the coursework, a bit more in depth, yikes those are some rough early years, ok now we're seeing some strength, keeps going, harder science coursework, still strong. Alright. Oh, did <reputable SMP>, that's good, is there a letter...okay that's stable. Now let's see that essay, is this kid and/or his/her support system able to produce writing better than a can of paint? Well ok, that's digestible and ties things together and I don't feel assaulted by adjective bloat. <Sits back, pulls glasses off, rubs eyes> for crying out loud we have how many apps this year? 8400? And we're interviewing how many? This app is risky paper compared to the last 4 I sent to interview, so do I have a case to make for putting this kid through. Hmm. Yeah, there's maturity, there's persistence, I'm feeling a bit more interested in talking to this kid in person than the last 4, and just like every interview we're going to see very quickly if this is about the kid or about the kid's parents. So how do I feel about this kid vs. the other nontrads, the former Navy pilot and the Olympic rower who was a Sudanese lost boy, well, we have to see how those folks hold up in an interview too, and if they hold up well they're going to hold up well at their other schools, vs. this kid who is below that threshold. So does this kid add depth to our interview pool? Do I want this kid more than the last 4 3.8/514's who have never done their own laundry and will almost certainly get accepted at the name up the street that their parents will prefer? I do. Fine. Interview. Next."

Let me emphasize how the above is prioritized to find the most likely rejection points and to efficiently get through a large pile of apps where there's no downside to missing a borderline applicant because there are maybe 2500 borderline applicants at any low tier school in any given year.

When you think about your med school essay, do you have a hook? Is there a descriptor that I'm going to use for you, ie "the basketball one" or "the Peace Corps one, Cameroon or something" or a similarly unique and notable hook that shatters the cookie cutter? Yes? No? With your level of GPA damage, I suggest that you very much need to be some species of unicorn. A meaty paper about calcium channels. Prison health. RAM coordinator more than once with a letter from Himself. Lost 150 pounds. Sings with the MTC since age 15. Etc.

Hope that helps.

Best of luck to you.
Key:
RAM is Remote Area Medical
Himself is Stan Brock
MTC is Mormon Tabernacle Choir

This is very useful. I think I meet all these criteria now, except for the ECs. I have ~200 hours of hospital volunteering with patient contact, some other stuff, but nothing truly extraordinary. I'll work on that this year.

That being said, you mentioned losing 150 lbs as impressive, and I've never heard your opinion on this point before. Is this impressive to you? I developed a mysterious chronic inflammatory skin condition (it included neuroinflammation too). Dermatologists I saw in Dubai just gave me corticosteroids, which reduced the symptoms but only partially, temporarily, and with horrible side-effects. Over the next several years, I figured out how to manage my condition by reading the scientific literature, watching the lectures of influential and innovative physicians and using their clinical wisdom, and self-experimenting. I eventually figured out I had acquired a variety of food allergies, which were driving the inflammation. Now I avoid those foods and use a protocol consisting a variety of diet, lifestyle, and circadian interventions, numerous dietary supplements that are evidence-based, and one medication that I worked with a doctor to start taking. I have weak evidence that the medication was indicated for my condition, which is why the doctor agreed to prescribe it. I have a thorough and evidence-based understanding of what caused my condition, how it progressed, and how I'm currently treating it. Would any of that be impressive to you if presented in the optimal way (i.e. not hastily written with poor choices of words like this)?

I also have a very promising lead that I hope will begin the process of reversing my acquired food allergies once I have the time to do it. I have the citations to back this up (Longo 2008, 2015, 2015). If I reverse my own food allergies, as evidenced by allergen challenge supervised by a physician, would that be impressive to you?

Should I mention any of this in my AMCAS? Secondaries? In interviews? Take it as a secret to my grave? The prevailing wisdom is it's a red flag that makes me annoying because it sounds reminiscent of anti-vaxxers brandishing blog posts, but tbh, I believe this is completely different than that, impressive, and pertinent to my suitability to become a physician. What do you think?

1. Longo VD. A periodic diet that mimics fasting promotes multi-system regeneration, enhanced cognitive performance, and healthspan. Cell Metab. 2015. A Periodic Diet that Mimics Fasting Promotes Multi-System Regeneration, Enhanced Cognitive Performance, and Healthspan - ScienceDirect. Accessed October 2, 2016.
2. Longi V. A Diet Mimicking Fasting Promotes Regeneration and Reduces Autoimmunity and Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms. Cell Rep. 2016. A Diet Mimicking Fasting Promotes Regeneration and Reduces Autoimmunity and Multiple Sclerosis Symptoms - ScienceDirect. Accessed October 2, 2016.
3. Longo VD, Antebi A, Bartke A, et al. Interventions to Slow Aging in Humans: Are We Ready? Aging Cell. 2015;14(4):497-510. doi:10.1111/acel.12338.

 

[Med4sci]

My app is coming up and I was wondering if anyone could point me out to some sort of a list or resource that can show me which medical schools would be best to apply to, given my situation.

Does anyone know which schools reward reinvention? I'm gonna end up having around a 3.7 Science GPA, but 2.8 cumulative because I never took sciences before but was a psych major with a bad academic history. I took so many credits that my GPA barely moves up even with a semester of full 15 credit hours with all A's.

I'm hoping to show Adcoms that I was just more science competent, and found my "true passion" because I got all A's my first go at sciences. I'm also most likely going to be applying for SMP's at the same time.

Did you did you ever get into med school!

 

[Goro]

Did you did you ever get into med school!

OP was planning for Step 2 last fall, so yes.