SDN EM Step 1 Poll (Attendings , Residents, Students)

[bad virus]

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I am curious to see if we are just witnessing a reporting bias or are most SDN posters just better at multiple guess exams than the rest of the population.

Results are anonymous so hopefully that will limit some of the reporting bias.

I am hoping this will show a more normal gaussian distribution that will in turn hopefully alleviate some anxiety in normal applicants.

All members are welcome to post as long as you are either an EM applicant, resident or attending.

Thanks guys and take care.

 

[fahimaz7]

Is there a 280+ category? I don't feel that the 260+ adequately characterizes my score....



























lol. jk.

 

[Transmogrifier]

Interesting results so far. I didn't expect it to be so high with anonymous data.

National average for matched US seniors last year was 223.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

[JacobMcCandles]

Interesting results so far. I didn't expect it to be so high with anonymous data.

National average for matched US seniors last year was 223.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

You've got to look at who you're sampling. I think the average SDN Step 1 is going to be higher than the national average Step 1. I, on the other hand, did my part to bring it back down.

 

[bad virus]

 

[Transmogrifier]

You've got to look at who you're sampling. I think the average SDN Step 1 is going to be higher than the national average Step 1. I, on the other hand, did my part to bring it back down.

Yup, the idea behind the poll, I believe, was to test if what we see people publicly post about is true of all the users who don't say "I have a 265, AOA, and all honors. Do I have any hope of matching!?!?"

 

[Fiddlergirl]

Mine was 214. So, no, we aren't all geniuses.

 

[bad virus]

I don't really know what to make of the data, or if any conclusions can be drawn from it.

Any PD's or madmin out their want to comment on any of this? Or if any one who is good with lies, damn lies and statistics want to say something, feel free.

 

[Arcan57]

I don't really know what to make of the data, or if any conclusions can be drawn from it.

Any PD's or madmin out their want to comment on any of this? Or if any one who is good with lies, damn lies and statistics want to say something, feel free.

Based on your prior graph, it's clear that the ideal Step I to match into EM is 221-230 (97% match rate). So if you feel like you are just crushing Step I you may want to miss some questions to make sure your score isn't too high.

I wonder if the increasing failure rate with scores above 230 signifies some systemic issue such as not interviewing/ranking enough programs due to overconfidence or if it's people going for highly competitive specialties that haven't buffed their EM back-up plans enough.

 

[Transmogrifier]

Based on your prior graph, it's clear that the ideal Step I to match into EM is 221-230 (97% match rate). So if you feel like you are just crushing Step I you may want to miss some questions to make sure your score isn't too high.

I wonder if the increasing failure rate with scores above 230 signifies some systemic issue such as not interviewing/ranking enough programs due to overconfidence or if it's people going for highly competitive specialties that haven't buffed their EM back-up plans enough.

The higher your step 1 score, the higher your chance of matching:

 

[Lacheln]

I wonder if the increasing failure rate with scores above 230 signifies some systemic issue such as not interviewing/ranking enough programs due to overconfidence or if it's people going for highly competitive specialties that haven't buffed their EM back-up plans enough.

Or it's just sample size bias. I definitely think there's an element of not ranking enough programs. Several students at my school failed to match last year, a couple of whom are excellent candidates but did not rank enough programs (5 or 6). As you can imagine, we've since had it drilled into us to apply widely and rank at least 12, more for weaker candidates.

 

[Lacheln]

Also, I'm not surprised the SDN population skews right for step scores etc. A) It's a self-selected population of people who are the type to search for outside resources and B) SDN (I believe) helps you do better on the step exams by sharing strategies and motivation.

If it makes people feel better, I get the distinct sense that step scores don't matter in EM once you're above a reasonable cutoff. I was chit-chatting with our assistant PD a while ago, and he tells me that he actually is turned off by very high step scores, because he assumes they're social rejects without street smarts (my words, I'm paraphrasing). I have a score higher than what he was quoting, so I was like uuuummm fml...luckily all my evals state I'm normal except for some mild twitching, and I can fight my way out of a paper bag, as long as it's a little damp. 😉

 

[TheJanitor]

If it makes people feel better, I get the distinct sense that step scores don't matter in EM once you're above a reasonable cutoff. I was chit-chatting with our assistant PD a while ago, and he tells me that he actually is turned off by very high step scores, because he assumes they're social rejects without street smarts (my words, I'm paraphrasing). I have a score higher than what he was quoting, so I was like uuuummm fml...luckily all my evals state I'm normal except for some mild twitching, and I can fight my way out of a paper bag, as long as it's a little damp. 😉

I feel like this is probably just one of those things they say....kind of a way of cushioning the disappointment of knowing the AOA, all clinical honors, 260/260 student will choose a school of higher prestige or whatever.

Like, "well, I didn't even want that pretty girl to go out with me, she's probably just a jerk anyway."

Yes, I realize that there is occasionally some psychopathology associated with people that have exceedingly high IQ, more than the normal population, but I highly doubt it is an overwhelming majority.

 

[Lacheln]

I feel like this is probably just one of those things they say....kind of a way of cushioning the disappointment of knowing the AOA, all clinical honors, 260/260 student will choose a school of higher prestige or whatever.

Like, "well, I didn't even want that pretty girl to go out with me, she's probably just a jerk anyway."

Yes, I realize that there is occasionally some psychopathology associated with people that have exceedingly high IQ, more than the normal population, but I highly doubt it is an overwhelming majority.

Eh, maybe. I don't think it's as simple as that, though. If you look at the NRMP data regarding what PDs look for in candidates (here: www.nrmp.org), step 1 is ranked much lower in EM than it is in, for example, internal medicine. Based on the data there, EM values EM rotation grade, LORs within field, and interpersonal skills much more than step scores and general grades.

 

[fahimaz7]

Eh, maybe. I don't think it's as simple as that, though. If you look at the NRMP data regarding what PDs look for in candidates (here: www.nrmp.org), step 1 is ranked much lower in EM than it is in, for example, internal medicine. Based on the data there, EM values EM rotation grade, LORs within field, and interpersonal skills much more than step scores and general grades.

There are a lot of students at my school with >250's and absolutely normal social skills and hobbies. Comments like the one above are ignorant, as it is very possible to be a weirdo with no social skills and get a 220 as well as a 260. Quite a few of the 260's in my class are married, have children, race mtn bikes or road bikes, etc all while doing well in classes and on exams.

A 250+ shows that one has worked very hard for the first two years, is a good test taker, and is capable of retaining a lot of information for a test. It doesn't show social reject with no life outside of the classroom and the personality of a wall flower.

I think the "weirdest" person in our class actually failed step 1.

 

[MedicalStudent5]

I am curious to see if we are just witnessing a reporting bias or are most SDN posters just better at multiple guess exams than the rest of the population.

Results are anonymous so hopefully that will limit some of the reporting bias.

I am hoping this will show a more normal gaussian distribution that will in turn hopefully alleviate some anxiety in normal applicants.

All members are welcome to post as long as you are either an EM applicant, resident or attending.

Thanks guys and take care.

Hmmm. Not sure why this would be helpful. There is literally data of step 1 scores for EVERY person who matched EM just a year back.

No guessing no bias just every score in 10 point ranges.

 

[MedicalStudent5]

Oops, didnt see this.

 

[TallScrubs]

There are a lot of students at my school with >250's and absolutely normal social skills and hobbies. Comments like the one above are ignorant, as it is very possible to be a weirdo with no social skills and get a 220 as well as a 260. Quite a few of the 260's in my class are married, have children, race mtn bikes or road bikes, etc all while doing well in classes and on exams.

A 250+ shows that one has worked very hard for the first two years, is a good test taker, and is capable of retaining a lot of information for a test. It doesn't show social reject with no life outside of the classroom and the personality of a wall flower.

I think the "weirdest" person in our class actually failed step 1.

Did you reply to the wrong post? That's not what he was talking about at all.

 

[Lacheln]

There are a lot of students at my school with >250's and absolutely normal social skills and hobbies. Comments like the one above are ignorant, as it is very possible to be a weirdo with no social skills and get a 220 as well as a 260. Quite a few of the 260's in my class are married, have children, race mtn bikes or road bikes, etc all while doing well in classes and on exams.

A 250+ shows that one has worked very hard for the first two years, is a good test taker, and is capable of retaining a lot of information for a test. It doesn't show social reject with no life outside of the classroom and the personality of a wall flower.

I think the "weirdest" person in our class actually failed step 1.

Settle down. My point wasn't whether he was correct or not, I was just commenting on the seeming cultural difference between EM and some other specialties.

 

[Docuronium]

Watching this type of ridiculousness is always just great. No wonder everyone tells me to avoid medical message boards.

My guess is that there is a fairly more holistic view of an applicant taken in Emergency Medicine and certain programs value certain things more than others. As med students who probably have little experience/knowledge outside of our own programs, we probably do a bad job evaluating which of these things (if any) is the most important.

 

[Zanegray]

Like, "well, I didn't even want that pretty girl to go out with me, she's probably just a jerk anyway."
.

This must have been the reason I didn't have a date to prom.... Hmmm

 

[deleted109597]

There are a lot of students at my school with >250's and absolutely normal social skills and hobbies. Comments like the one above are ignorant, as it is very possible to be a weirdo with no social skills and get a 220 as well as a 260. Quite a few of the 260's in my class are married, have children, race mtn bikes or road bikes, etc all while doing well in classes and on exams.

Considering that a 260 is well above average, and judging by the 2011 Charting Outcomes, incredibly rare, you must go to a unique school. A school full of people who all tell everyone else their scores without lying, as well as are all normal temperament but above normal intelligence. You must enjoy Lake Wobegon.
Since many of us also went to medical school, I can tell you that this isn't common. I only truly knew my step 1 score and that of 2 other people, one being my wife. The rest didn't talk about it.

A 250+ shows that one has worked very hard for the first two years, is a good test taker, and is capable of retaining a lot of information for a test. It doesn't show social reject with no life outside of the classroom and the personality of a wall flower.

Some would argue differently.

 

[fahimaz7]

Considering that a 260 is well above average, and judging by the 2011 Charting Outcomes, incredibly rare, you must go to a unique school. A school full of people who all tell everyone else their scores without lying, as well as are all normal temperament but above normal intelligence. You must enjoy Lake Wobegon.
Since many of us also went to medical school, I can tell you that this isn't common. I only truly knew my step 1 score and that of 2 other people, one being my wife. The rest didn't talk about it.


Some would argue differently.

Well, as you said you only knew the step 1 score of 2 other people.... Also, while a 260 awesome it isn't the most rare feet in medical school. However, a 260 and applying to EM is rare, as most of these guys are headed to other fields of medicine. Anesthesia went 66:0. Derm went 33:0, Radiology went 66:0, Internal Medicine went 100:0, Neurosurgery went 16:0, etc

I know of 6 above a 260 and another 10 above a 250 from my class.

All I'm trying to say is that blanket comments about people with good/bad board scores is poor taste. Some of the nicest most well-rounded people in my class are at both ends of the step 1 spectrum. 🙂

I don't have a real dog in this fight though. No 260 for me.

 

[deleted109597]

Well, as you said you only knew the step 1 score of 2 other people.... Also, while a 260 awesome it isn't the most rare feet in medical school. However, a 260 and applying to EM is rare, as most of these guys are headed to other fields of medicine. Anesthesia went 66:0. Derm went 33:0, Radiology went 66:0, Internal Medicine went 100:0, Neurosurgery went 16:0, etc

Yes, I only know the personal score of 2 other people, but we have statistics of how the nation scores. And 260 is (was) 2 standard deviations above the mean. So for a class of 100, you would expect 2. But you stated

Quite a few of the 260's in my class are married, have children, race mtn bikes or road bikes, etc all while doing well in classes and on exams

Implying that you've got more than 2. Hence the Lake Wobegon comment.

 

[fahimaz7]

Yes, I only know the personal score of 2 other people, but we have statistics of how the nation scores. And 260 is (was) 2 standard deviations above the mean. So for a class of 100, you would expect 2. But you stated

Implying that you've got more than 2. Hence the Lake Wobegon comment.

Straight from my score report shows the 2nd SD set at a 270 and not a 260. I also have more than 100 students in my class.

 

[bad virus]

Conclusion: SDN EM forum = DIG (Dermatology Interest Group)

 

[bad virus]

I am just bumping this thread back up to point out to the silent majority (the other 1100 applicants who don't have 290 steps) that SDN EM forum just has a bias for people who are good at multiple guess and not to worry. I think the regular users of this forum (people who are attracted to internet conversations) also have some sort of faint affinity for multiple choice. Who knows, but comparing it to the NRMP stuff, things are quite different than the real world.

Good luck to everyone on the match.

 

[Akail]

Anyone want to venture a guess about the Step 1 average this year for charting outcomes? It was 223 in 2011...I'm going to say +6 and it'll be 229 this year.

 

[Lanolin]

I realize these stats in the thread are from last year but I wouldn't really expect much difference this year in terms of who scored what on Step 1. With that said, there are 2 or 3 people in the 2013 ROL thread claiming a >260 with only 13 reported last year on the whole (matched and unmatched) and about 12 or so reporting >250 with only 79 reported last year on the whole. For each that's a pretty large percentage considering the ROL thread only has about 60 lists out of what is it... like 1200 applicants? Yeah, SDN bias (or lies) are in full effect this year fo sho!

Plenty of people around the country score in the 250+ category. No one has anything to gain on here by lying about step scores.

 

[Caesar]

Based on your prior graph, it's clear that the ideal Step I to match into EM is 221-230 (97% match rate). So if you feel like you are just crushing Step I you may want to miss some questions to make sure your score isn't too high.

I told a second year who was annoying me about step 1 something like this, just to feed the anxiety a bit. The look I got was followed by

I haven't been asked about step 1 since.

 

[fahimaz7]

According to last years stats (which will probably be very similar to this years), only 79 out of 1200ish EM applicants scored above 250. My reference was to EM applicants which was noted above in the graph (if you looked at that) so no... not plenty of people around the country.

You need to chill out man. You sound way to high strung about this. What I said was that a lot of people around the country score in the 250+ range. Do they all go into EM? No. As for why there are quite a few people in the ROL posting those type of scores, my guess is that quite a few of them read SDN and decide to post. There's no way to tell if people are lying or not, all I can say is that I believe them when they say they scored in the 250 range.

Don't really though. It doesn't affect me in the least bit. Maybe you can talk everyone into posting their score reports! My guess is if they did, you would say it was edited.

 

[JShephard]

According to last years stats (which will probably be very similar to this years), only 79 out of 1200ish EM applicants scored above 250. My reference was to EM applicants which was noted above in the graph (if you looked at that) so no... not plenty of people around the country. In fact, only about 6% or so (give or take since I rounded the 1200) however in the ROL thread there are no less than 12 or 13 have ALREADY reported going over 250 which would be about ~15% or so what the total was for last year... in a sample size of around 50. That means that over 25% of people reporting in that thread went over 250 while in the overall population only 6% ACTUALLY did that... you tell me if the sample is biased or if someone is lying. And if you don't think people lie about their step scores when posting what they were on SDN then PLEASE see me about your next real estate purchase, lol! No, they don't have anything to gain so I don't know why they do it, but they do. Some of those people I am SURE they did score above 250 and I'm glad for them that they did so well but let's be realistic... some are definitely not honest about their scores. It's not above "gaining something"... it's about appearances.

😕

I don't know where you're getting your data, but as for the 2011 charting the otucomes - there were over 250 students who applied with a 250+ in EM. So I'm doubting it went from 250+ down to 79 in 2012.

 

[Docuronium]

😕

I don't know where you're getting your data, but as for the 2011 charting the otucomes - there were over 250 students who applied with a 250+ in EM. So I'm doubting it went from 250+ down to 79 in 2012.

Whoa there. Pretty sure the number is 92.

(Math error)

 

[Docuronium]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

 

[always tired]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Some dude already linked the pic from the graph above.

 

[JShephard]

Easy. Read the whole thread and you'll see where I got my data from... the chart posted in this thread. 79 above 250 and 13 above 260. Not really a math error as Vickinabox said as I wasn't referring to the whole, just the 250-260 range but yeah... if you wanna do the whole above 250 (inluding the 260+ people) then it is 92. Perhaps you wanna share where you saw that 250+ people scored over a 250?

My mistake, I must have been looking at Step 2. I would have looked closer if you didn't say "last year" when referring to the March 2011 match.

Not sure what conclusions or significance the discussion has anyway. I don't think very many of these people are lying. What % of the students do you think are lying?

I'd be curious to hear the %. You said it should be 6% and it was 25% - which could easily be reporting bias and not lying, but what percentage of the 25% do you think are lying?

 

[Docuronium]

I didn't say yours was a math error. I was trying to comment on my edit where I originally wrote 93.

As usual, craziness is ensuing here.

 

[fahimaz7]

High strung? Hardly. Chill out? I'm pretty chill and have no reason not to be... just pointing out the facts. If pointing out the facts makes you high strung and needing to chill I guess pretty much everyone on this board is high strung and needs to chill.

As for your comment... I was referring to Lanolin's comment and wasn't even referring to you since your comment was made last year and wasn't/isn't relevant in the current discussion between him/her and I... well, that is unless your "other name" is Lanolin that is. If not, easier to recognize that my comment was directed to him/her. I think if anyone needs to chill it would be you since you are still defending the situation 6 or 7 months later when you yourself said you have no dog in this fight. Besides, if people posted their score reports (which I'm not even gonna ask cuz they don't have to prove anything to me) why would I say it was edited? Proof is proof but no proof is just someone on the internet's word and just cuz I don't just openly believe without question that every one of those people scored above 250 doesn't make me whatever it is you are trying to paint me as. It makes me skeptical, which I am entitled to be, just as you are entitled to have 2 SDN identities or to be naive to the concept that SOMETIMES people do lie (you probably know that if you've asked patients about drugs or sexual Hx... it actually does happen!) just to make themselves look better when there is no real or apparent gain from it other than to look good on the internet to people they've never met. Shocker, I know, but shockingly true none the less...

I've been on SDN since 2004 or something and in this forum for a few years now. My initial argument on here was 5 months ago, which is why I decided to joint his conversation again when someone decided to bump it back to the front page.

So your big point on here is that SDN lies about scores (whether it's the PSAT, SAT, GRE, PCAT, MCAT, USMLE, etc)? Could that be extrapolated to the other scoring ranges (220-230, 230-240, 240-250, etc)? Does it change anything? Over the last decade of reading and posting on SDN, I have come to the conclusion that the people who post on SDN are typically really good testers, with great grades, and who have the interest in social media and like to discuss stuff on the internet. It would not surprise me at all if 10-20% of the "top scoring" applicants to ED are people who post on this forum. Just look at the places they are interviewing at! Residency invites are typically very regional, so for someone to interview on both coasts, at such great programs, they most likely fit the profile of being in the top of the applicant pool.

Charting the Outcomes >250 on step 1. BTW. People also lie about their scores by reporting them down (ie if you score a 265 on step 1 you say >250 instead of >260)

2007 = 51
2009 = 67
2011 = 92
2012 = ?

Apparently people are scoring higher each time and as of right now there are 13 people in the rank thread with >250 scores.

 

[JShephard]

Whatever works for ya bud. As I stated, my comment was directed at another users comment and you responded defensively (twice) to my comment that wasn't even directed at you. I don't know why you are so highly tuned to the situation since you self admitted to not being one of the people we are talking about but it really doesn't matter to me why you are... it's just apparent you are if you still defend something you're not even involved in several months apart. I didn't bump the thread up but felt there was input to be made once I did see it and see the correlations that were made then and now. Is SDN a skewed population? Definitely. Are all SDN posters guilty of fudging their stats? Nope... but I'd be surprised if a few didn't. I'm not prepared to simply draw the conclusion "well, they are on SDN so they must be be smarter than the average bear" somehow implying that either SDN makes you a better test taker or if you are a good test taker then you will naturally find your way to SDN by search for info. Those things are WAY too hard to prove or disprove, much like saying someone is fudging on the scores they posted, and have far to many confounding variables to even begin to guess as to how accurate it is. End point for me is that either you are indeed correct and a very skewed portion of the high scorers post on SDN or a few people are fudging their scores to appear a little better. I don't know which, but I do know which seems the least far fetched. Best of luck to you and I hope all turns out well... not much else to say! 🙂

Honestly, I would just direct people to the Charting the Outcomes either 2011 or the new 2013 for them to get an idea of what is competitive. Accusations of people falsifying stuff doesn't really help anyone.

Good luck.👍

 

[always tired]

Honestly, I would just direct people to the Charting the Outcomes either 2011 or the new 2013 for them to get an idea of what is competitive. Accusations of people falsifying stuff doesn't really help anyone.

Good luck.👍

👍

This is just a fun little anonymous poll that proves SDN participants are just a bit right skewed in terms of the general population in their multiple guess abilities.

 

[SserPrun95]

I prescribe you each one chill pill.