Second choices

[pillowhead]

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Have you ever heard of "living below your means"? Wait until the debt is paid off to fully appreciate a physician salary. As they say, live like a student now, or live like one later. People buy houses on mortgage, buy cars on finance, etc., and those are generally not drop it all on the table and pay off at once expenses. They're paid off over time by wise financial management. Same with loan debt.

I guess it also depends on what you "need" for life. For me, that's some shirts and pants, some food, and a roof over my head, and that's about it. All the other stuff in life is just icing. I think someone would be hard pressed to legitimately argue a "need" for Tivo, a car less than 5 years old, a car period...Sure it'll be nice to be paid well as a physician, but quite honestly we don't need people earning $200K+. Most people in America live on $30,000 - $40,000/year. Most people don't get college educations even. The more people act against the rising costs of medicine, the more we're going to see these large salaries normalized with other average physician salaries, because it's an easy first cut.

Anywho, we're just hijacking the OP's original post now.

I'm glad all you need is shirts, pants, food, and a roof. But if you have a spouse and kids, you'll need a more pairs of shirts and pants, more food to feed those mouths, and a larger roof. In most places you'll also need two cars--even a decent, low-mileage used Honda Accord at five years old is going to set you back $15,000 plus insurance. And speaking of insurance, all those other folks in your household will need health insurance and life insurance for the parents of the kids.

Do you know how much day care costs? My sister just had a baby and it's starting out at $300 a week. For ONE kid. If you need night or weekend babysitters/nannies, add on more to that.

A person earning $40,000 a year generally takes home almost $40,000 a year. that's what my husband earned last year and we paid 3% of our income in federal taxes. A person earning 200,000 is taxed at 33% of their income plus they lose out on deductions such as student loan interest deduction and they are no longer eligible to contribute to the best retirement funds such as Roth IRAs.

You say most people live on $30000-$40000 a year in this country. So what? They don't do so successfully. Most people in this country are reeling in debt and spend more in one year than they earn. (and it's not all because of TiVO).

I don't know where you are in your career and life right now but try actually being married with children, post-medical school actually paying back the debt before criticizing those of us who want to be appropriately compensated for the hard work we do. Living paycheck to paycheck during resideny when you're already in your late 20s, early 30s with absolutely no money to spare if one of your 100,000+ miles cars decides to croak and no ability to begin even eating into the principal of your student loans is hard enough even knowing you've got a $200,000 paycheck waiting for you at the end. Never mind even saving for retirement at this point. Never mind having children--I couldn't even afford to take the 12 weeks off from residency to stay home with a new baby. Never mind buying a house which is an actual investment as opposed to throwing bye-bye at rent every month.

It's one thing not to save for retirement in your early 20s and live in a cheap, loud apartment and generally live like a pauper. It's entirely different in your early 30s when your educational peers (like your friends from college who now have MBAs, JDs, and CPAs) are zooming ahead of you financially and you have to keep turning down offers to hang out because you just can't afford to go out for one more meal that actually involves waiters and not counter service.

 

[crimsonkid85]

I'm glad all you need is shirts, pants, food, and a roof. But if you have a spouse and kids, you'll need a more pairs of shirts and pants, more food to feed those mouths, and a larger roof. In most places you'll also need two cars--even a decent, low-mileage used Honda Accord at five years old is going to set you back $15,000 plus insurance. And speaking of insurance, all those other folks in your household will need health insurance and life insurance for the parents of the kids.

Do you know how much day care costs? My sister just had a baby and it's starting out at $300 a week. For ONE kid. If you need night or weekend babysitters/nannies, add on more to that.

A person earning $40,000 a year generally takes home almost $40,000 a year. that's what my husband earned last year and we paid 3% of our income in federal taxes. A person earning 200,000 is taxed at 33% of their income plus they lose out on deductions such as student loan interest deduction and they are no longer eligible to contribute to the best retirement funds such as Roth IRAs.

You say most people live on $30000-$40000 a year in this country. So what? They don't do so successfully. Most people in this country are reeling in debt and spend more in one year than they earn. (and it's not all because of TiVO).

I don't know where you are in your career and life right now but try actually being married with children, post-medical school actually paying back the debt before criticizing those of us who want to be appropriately compensated for the hard work we do. Living paycheck to paycheck during resideny when you're already in your late 20s, early 30s with absolutely no money to spare if one of your 100,000+ miles cars decides to croak and no ability to begin even eating into the principal of your student loans is hard enough even knowing you've got a $200,000 paycheck waiting for you at the end. Never mind even saving for retirement at this point. Never mind having children--I couldn't even afford to take the 12 weeks off from residency to stay home with a new baby. Never mind buying a house which is an actual investment as opposed to throwing bye-bye at rent every month.

It's one thing not to save for retirement in your early 20s and live in a cheap, loud apartment and generally live like a pauper. It's entirely different in your early 30s when your educational peers (like your friends from college who now have MBAs, JDs, and CPAs) are zooming ahead of you financially and you have to keep turning down offers to hang out because you just can't afford to go out for one more meal that actually involves waiters and not counter service.

thank you. i hate people who spout bull**** about only needing the 'bare necessities' in life. these are the type of people who likely have NO IDEA what poverty means. No, volunteering in Africa for a summer doesn't count.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with physicians demanding a certain standard of living. ibankers do it; consultants do it; lawyers do it; why can't doctors? if anything, the services that doctors render are MORE valuable than that rendered by other similar-paying careers.

we all decided to go into medicine because we all like the work that medicine entails. that does NOT mean that we can't argue for higher salaries/compensation.

and as for the OP's comment, it does stress me out that I have no idea if i will be able to enter the residency of my choice. it's a complicated application process and it's not entirely a meritocracy. but i guess that's what we signed up for, right? :/

 

[OncoCaP]

thank you. i hate people who spout bull**** about only needing the 'bare necessities' in life. these are the type of people who likely have NO IDEA what poverty means. No, volunteering in Africa for a summer doesn't count.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with physicians demanding a certain standard of living. ibankers do it; consultants do it; lawyers do it; why can't doctors? if anything, the services that doctors render are MORE valuable than that rendered by other similar-paying careers.

we all decided to go into medicine because we all like the work that medicine entails. that does NOT mean that we can't argue for higher salaries/compensation.

and as for the OP's comment, it does stress me out that I have no idea if i will be able to enter the residency of my choice. it's a complicated application process and it's not entirely a meritocracy. but i guess that's what we signed up for, right? :/

Something about you going to JH tells me you are going to have some very nice options.

I agree that there is nothing wrong with physicians making a lot of money. Yes, physicians provide a lot of value as well.

However, this isn't the only objective in everyone's mind. Perhaps there are some specialties that are making high wages due to anticompetitive factors (like keeping the number of residency spots low). For example, perhaps we really do need more Radiology residency spots, but their numbers are kept low in part to keep wages in the that field up? I'm fine with specialists making high wages because they provide high value. If certain specialists are making high wages because they created an artificial shortage, I see many reasons as to why anticompetitive situations like this should be corrected.

 

[dannylee718]

interesting conversations.

all I know is the medical profession is constantly changing. what y'all say is an amazing specialty today, may not be all that "amazing" 10 yrs down the line. and what we consider crappy now, may indeed become the hot topic on SDN. just gotta do what you are good at and like. And if you feel you are not "up to par", then MAKE yourself like whichever specialty you end up in.

The chief end of man is happiness? Make it happen son.

👍

 

[sirus_virus]

Have you ever heard of "living below your means"? Wait until the debt is paid off to fully appreciate a physician salary. As they say, live like a student now, or live like one later. People buy houses on mortgage, buy cars on finance, etc., and those are generally not drop it all on the table and pay off at once expenses. They're paid off over time by wise financial management. Same with loan debt.

I guess it also depends on what you "need" for life. For me, that's some shirts and pants, some food, and a roof over my head, and that's about it. All the other stuff in life is just icing. I think someone would be hard pressed to legitimately argue a "need" for Tivo, a car less than 5 years old, a car period...Sure it'll be nice to be paid well as a physician, but quite honestly we don't need people earning $200K+. Most people in America live on $30,000 - $40,000/year. Most people don't get college educations even. The more people act against the rising costs of medicine, the more we're going to see these large salaries normalized with other average physician salaries, because it's an easy first cut.

Anywho, we're just hijacking the OP's original post now.

doctorp82, don't listen to these guys. You are exactly what medicine needs. In fact, I will like to partner with you in the future. You will provide me with your noble services, while I provide you with shirts and pants. I am even willing to throw in some socks.

 

[doctorp82]

I'm glad all you need is shirts, pants, food, and a roof. But if you have a spouse and kids, you'll need a more pairs of shirts and pants, more food to feed those mouths, and a larger roof. In most places you'll also need two cars--even a decent, low-mileage used Honda Accord at five years old is going to set you back $15,000 plus insurance. And speaking of insurance, all those other folks in your household will need health insurance and life insurance for the parents of the kids.

Do you know how much day care costs? My sister just had a baby and it's starting out at $300 a week. For ONE kid. If you need night or weekend babysitters/nannies, add on more to that.

A person earning $40,000 a year generally takes home almost $40,000 a year. that's what my husband earned last year and we paid 3% of our income in federal taxes. A person earning 200,000 is taxed at 33% of their income plus they lose out on deductions such as student loan interest deduction and they are no longer eligible to contribute to the best retirement funds such as Roth IRAs.

You say most people live on $30000-$40000 a year in this country. So what? They don't do so successfully. Most people in this country are reeling in debt and spend more in one year than they earn. (and it's not all because of TiVO).

I don't know where you are in your career and life right now but try actually being married with children, post-medical school actually paying back the debt before criticizing those of us who want to be appropriately compensated for the hard work we do. Living paycheck to paycheck during resideny when you're already in your late 20s, early 30s with absolutely no money to spare if one of your 100,000+ miles cars decides to croak and no ability to begin even eating into the principal of your student loans is hard enough even knowing you've got a $200,000 paycheck waiting for you at the end. Never mind even saving for retirement at this point. Never mind having children--I couldn't even afford to take the 12 weeks off from residency to stay home with a new baby. Never mind buying a house which is an actual investment as opposed to throwing bye-bye at rent every month.

It's one thing not to save for retirement in your early 20s and live in a cheap, loud apartment and generally live like a pauper. It's entirely different in your early 30s when your educational peers (like your friends from college who now have MBAs, JDs, and CPAs) are zooming ahead of you financially and you have to keep turning down offers to hang out because you just can't afford to go out for one more meal that actually involves waiters and not counter service.

To start, I never meant in any way to imply any of the needs you mentioned were not necessities, nor insult your need of finances. Let me backtrack a bit and elaborate.

I am midway in school right now, with two years behind and two ahead. I've lived with roommates part of that time, but will be spending here out on my own. That'll be an increase of about $300/month in bills to pay. I'm definately intimidated by that, yes, but am glad that in the last two years I've saved away about $11-12K that I didn't have starting med school. I do know that once your salary surpasses a certain amount you are no longer eligeable to contribute to a Roth IRA, so I will hopefully put some of that money into that soon while I am still able to, and let the account work for itself. I'm not married, or with any kids right now, so I don't have to face that or I likely wouldn't have that money at all. I drive a 15 year old vehicle that runs well for 200,000 miles, and through maintenance should last until I can replace it. It cost me $2800.

In my class I see many people who are living as though they already make a salary, buying condos, $300 occasion dresses, etc. I've heard doctors try to sell specialties by dropping numbers as to how much they make. I've been to physician's houses that are more than large enough to live comfortably. Having spent several occasions doing those "summer in Africa" types of trips as has been mentioned in both third world countries and in places in the US, and doing volunteer work, poverty does bother me, so my motivation on trying to live with less and not with luxury is to be able to not only be sufficient with whatever salary I make, but to be able to continue putting resources I have towards less fortunate, either by monetary donation or by my time.

At some point I want to marry, and want to have kids. They'll be expensive for sure, and I will find it definitely necessary to have them covered by insurance, and it will be necessary to have a vehicle, and it will be necessary to save for retirement at some point as well. Those things will take priority over other things like cable television, $20 dinners at restaurants, going golfing, buying name-brand whatever. My whole point I guess is that people who are at the stage where they are earing that $200,000 paycheck and have a three story house and three cars with a 7 acre lot are probably living with plenty of comfort. If they run into financial trouble, it's simple to say that they are living beyond what they can afford and it only makes sense to cut back.

Yes, people making $30-40K a year have it far rougher, but if they had 3-4x that much per year then paying their financial needs would be much easier. Although I stand to make more than them someday, I foresee having to live around that sort of level in order to afford paying off debt. That's all I am saying. Certainly, when I get to where I am married and with kids I'll need more to care for them than I need for myself now. That'll just mean doing with less comforts of my own.

Hopefully this is more clear and understanding.

 

[cfdavid]

On my last rotation (FM) I worked with at least 3 residents who were in their 2nd choice career. 2 of them had failed to match in EM and 1 had wanted to do EM but hadn't even tried to apply (Carribean, low steps, think he had failed some stuff too).

This is just madness to me, especially considering the article I recently read that said med schools are slated to add 17% more spots by 2012 (this doesn't even count DO schools). Every time I cruise over to Pre-Allo there's the student with very marginal numbers asking about his "chances." Yes, yes, I know that there are plenty of people who do badly in UG and then turn it around in med school (that's not the point here).

Seriously though, what do you tell this guy/girl with the 3.1 GPA and the 26 MCAT? Because "go for it! you can do anything you want!" is almost certainly a lie.

As I think about my career choice, I imagine I would be absolutely sick if I knew that realistically I had no shot at my first choice. There is something to be said for tenacity and dogedness - the prelim year followed by the reapplication. But at the end of the day some people will end up in a residency they never wanted to do.

So I guess I don't have any questions, I'm just sort of thinking out loud.


(P.S. This is not a bash FM thread, I liked FM alot and most of my residents were ecstatic to be doing it.)

I guess it depends on the person. Some people will only be happy doing ortho. While others could be happy doing any number of different specialties. So, if their ideal goal doesn't pan out, they might still be able to have a happy, satisfying career doing one of the less competitive specialties.

 

[pillowhead]

To start, I never meant in any way to imply any of the needs you mentioned were not necessities, nor insult your need of finances. Let me backtrack a bit and elaborate.

I am midway in school right now, with two years behind and two ahead. I've lived with roommates part of that time, but will be spending here out on my own. That'll be an increase of about $300/month in bills to pay. I'm definately intimidated by that, yes, but am glad that in the last two years I've saved away about $11-12K that I didn't have starting med school. I do know that once your salary surpasses a certain amount you are no longer eligeable to contribute to a Roth IRA, so I will hopefully put some of that money into that soon while I am still able to, and let the account work for itself. I'm not married, or with any kids right now, so I don't have to face that or I likely wouldn't have that money at all. I drive a 15 year old vehicle that runs well for 200,000 miles, and through maintenance should last until I can replace it. It cost me $2800.

In my class I see many people who are living as though they already make a salary, buying condos, $300 occasion dresses, etc. I've heard doctors try to sell specialties by dropping numbers as to how much they make. I've been to physician's houses that are more than large enough to live comfortably. Having spent several occasions doing those "summer in Africa" types of trips as has been mentioned in both third world countries and in places in the US, and doing volunteer work, poverty does bother me, so my motivation on trying to live with less and not with luxury is to be able to not only be sufficient with whatever salary I make, but to be able to continue putting resources I have towards less fortunate, either by monetary donation or by my time.

At some point I want to marry, and want to have kids. They'll be expensive for sure, and I will find it definitely necessary to have them covered by insurance, and it will be necessary to have a vehicle, and it will be necessary to save for retirement at some point as well. Those things will take priority over other things like cable television, $20 dinners at restaurants, going golfing, buying name-brand whatever. My whole point I guess is that people who are at the stage where they are earing that $200,000 paycheck and have a three story house and three cars with a 7 acre lot are probably living with plenty of comfort. If they run into financial trouble, it's simple to say that they are living beyond what they can afford and it only makes sense to cut back.

Yes, people making $30-40K a year have it far rougher, but if they had 3-4x that much per year then paying their financial needs would be much easier. Although I stand to make more than them someday, I foresee having to live around that sort of level in order to afford paying off debt. That's all I am saying. Certainly, when I get to where I am married and with kids I'll need more to care for them than I need for myself now. That'll just mean doing with less comforts of my own.

Hopefully this is more clear and understanding.

Ha ha. I know I probably sounded bitter, but I really don't regret going into medicine. But I just trying to make the point that when you're single and going into medical school without that many other commitments and all your friends are kind of in the same position, it's a lot easier to take the attitude that money isn't everthing (and truly it isn't). But it is a whole lot of something and it becomes more important and necessary as you get older and you have more commitments and your peers have less demanding jobs and seem to be doing better off financially. Give it another couple of decades and I think we'll all do okay, but the first couple of years of residency are really tough financially especially when you feel like the money you earn is already all accounted for before you get to do anything even remotely enjoyable with or anything remotely useful for long term financial health (like investing).

My apologies to the OP for the thread hijacking. Just wanted to say that going to medical school with the sole intent of practicing only one specialty is pretty silly and that as others have said, what's popular now will change in the future. Anesthesiology is far more competitve than ten years ago when they were desperate for people to go into it. Ob/Gyn used to be quite competitive and then took a nosedive in popularity, then last year there were only two open spots after the match. A family member of mine went into dermatology at a time (quite a while ago) when everyone laughed at him for choosing such a specialty, now it's arguably one of the toughest to match into.

 

[cfdavid]

2 things, and I'm just discussing here, not trying to slam you.

1. Nothing about what you said makes you an "underdog" applicant. If you got a 3.3 in a hard major at a hard school that is good. Low 30s on the MCAT is above average for students accepted to medical school. So quite to the contrary it looks like you were an average to slightly above average applicant.

2. It's cool that you've done so well, congrats. But I'm really not talking about annecdotal evidence of turnaround. I'm talking more about what Law2Doc hit on. When I was an undergrad I "wanted to be a doctor." Now that I'm an M3 I realize that I don't just "want to be a doctor," I want to be an emergency physician (or a neurosurgeon, or an anesthesiologist, or a dermatologist -- you fill in the blank). I'm lucky enough to be competitive for my chosen specialty, barring some huge snafu I can reasonably expect to match. But if I wasn't, I'm not sure I would want to do anything else. I'm just trying to imagine how terrible it would be to be faced with that reality.

I'm all for tenacity, but I'm just thinking about how these residents must have felt when they realized that their first love was closed to them. If we throw 2000 more students into the mix over the next few years are the competitive residencies going to swell to accomadate them or are we going to have alot of disgruntled former Anesthesia applicants in FP/IM residencies?

Just watch. The "powers that be" will overshoot their wads on this whole medical school expansion thing. Future students will suffer from what I can already see is mismanagement of a supposed "shortage" (this can too easily become a pending surplus if not handled with care).

So, yeah, it'll be harder to specialize (for those that want to) down the road as I agree that there's little evidence of substantial (or proportional) increases in residency slots. And, those that do expand will most likely be disproportionately in the primary care fields.

While the baby-boomer generation will drive demand for doctors (and this is legit, I'm sure), it always torques me when I hear the naive "solution" to underserved communities being "more doctors". WTF?? Try increasing Medicaid reimbursements and MAYBE this will help.

 

[cfdavid]

3.1 and 26 are kind of the averages for Osteopathic... I mean, perhaps the GPA's are slightly higher (since they replace retakes with the higher grade unlike AMCAS), and it seems that osteopaths do all right in the match. Do they do better, worse, who knows? Thinking out loud.

Also, there's one guy in my class who I know didn't do too well on his MCAT, but had a very high GPA from a tough school. He works extremely hard and I always see him studying at the medical school, driving me to guilt (to study). He does well on tests, and I think he works very hard to achieve those results. However, I find myself working a fewer number of hours and still achieving high grades on tests.

I think it's safe to say that people who work hard and have some sort of strong strong driving force will be able to perform well for boards. Now how does this correlate with GPA and MCAT scores? There may well not be a correlation, as hard workers have a gamut of GPA/MCAT scores. However, it may be safe to say that there is a significant chunk of the low GPA/MCAT segment that either is lacking in the mental / cognitive skills dept, or the hard work dept.

If you think about it, hard workers are often underrated. Usually, it's what really determines success in many fields and I don't think medicine's an exception. Now I'm not saying you can be dumb and a hard worker and really do that well in life. But, for most jobs it's about dedication, discipline, and perserverance more so than raw intelligence.

Obviously, the smart people that work hard and play well with others have the world by the gonads though.

 

[cfdavid]

I think saying I want to go into dermatology or not be a physician at all (be unhappy enough to not want to do another speciality) is similar (albeit not exactly the same) as saying I won't be happy unless I go to Harvard Medical School. If you're in medicine because you truly love it, you are likely to be happy in more than one speciality just like there is more than one medical school that suits your needs. You may not think it at the time of rejection, but I'm more than sure it won't cause most people to completely abandon medicine and regret going into the field.

I completely agree. To me, medicine is diverse enough that one should be able to find satisfaction (personal, professional, financial..whatever) in any number of medical specialties. But, that's just my opinion. There's nothing wrong with wanting to do interventional radiology ONLY, provided one is willing to work for it, and assuming they have an appropriate level of talent.

 

[Reimat]

I am midway in school right now, with two years behind and two ahead. I've lived with roommates part of that time, but will be spending here out on my own. That'll be an increase of about $300/month in bills to pay. I'm definately intimidated by that, yes, but am glad that in the last two years I've saved away about $11-12K that I didn't have starting med school.

Just curious - how in the world are you making money while in medical school? I assume either you're on a scholarship/stipend or have some other access to funds?

 

[Law2Doc]

Future students will suffer from what I can already see is mismanagement of a supposed "shortage" (this can too easily become a pending surplus if not handled with care).

Well, considering the generation behind the baby boomers is substantially smaller, it's pretty much guaranteed that if we meet the demands of the shortage, we will be overstaffed when they die out. The catch is that most of the people who enact the rules are part of the baby boomers and perhaps plan to be dead by the time the surplus hits. I don't know if that constitutes mismanagement or just sneaky management.

 

[doctorp82]

Just curious - how in the world are you making money while in medical school? I assume either you're on a scholarship/stipend or have some other access to funds?

Sorry, I'm not technically making money. I've saved about that much in loan money that I have not used. I put it away in the bank, and only use what money I need for food, bills (cheap with two roommates, about to be more when I get my own place next weekend), etc., and occasionally something to help keep my sanity like a book or cd or movie. Professional clothes are an expense as well, but for the most part I've not needed to spend a whole lot, and when I go out I try to be mindful and spend only a little bit. Seriously, I've spent more than I really had to, buying too much Subway.

I may or may not put the money into a Roth IRA. I have also considered a high yield savings account such as the one ING Bank or other companies like Capital One offer. I think Capital One provides one with a 5.0% APY or close to it, so that's pretty good as a liquid fund.

 

[cfdavid]

Well, considering the generation behind the baby boomers is substantially smaller, it's pretty much guaranteed that if we meet the demands of the shortage, we will be overstaffed when they die out. The catch is that most of the people who enact the rules are part of the baby boomers and perhaps plan to be dead by the time the surplus hits. I don't know if that constitutes mismanagement or just sneaky management.

lol. Interesting point. I'd say it's a combo of greed and well meaning. There's money to be made in expanding, or starting, a medical program. I'm mostly concerned with greed being behind initiatives to expand programs. I would like to think otherwise, but my experience tells me to follow the money....

 

[TheMightyAngus]

I may or may not put the money into a Roth IRA. I have also considered a high yield savings account such as the one ING Bank or other companies like Capital One offer. I think Capital One provides one with a 5.0% APY or close to it, so that's pretty good as a liquid fund.

I'm pretty sure that unless you have taxable income, you can't put money from student loans into a Roth.

 

[Reimat]

Sorry, I'm not technically making money. I've saved about that much in loan money that I have not used. I put it away in the bank, and only use what money I need for food, bills (cheap with two roommates, about to be more when I get my own place next weekend), etc., and occasionally something to help keep my sanity like a book or cd or movie. Professional clothes are an expense as well, but for the most part I've not needed to spend a whole lot, and when I go out I try to be mindful and spend only a little bit. Seriously, I've spent more than I really had to, buying too much Subway.

I may or may not put the money into a Roth IRA. I have also considered a high yield savings account such as the one ING Bank or other companies like Capital One offer. I think Capital One provides one with a 5.0% APY or close to it, so that's pretty good as a liquid fund.

Ah, makes sense. Now, this totally depends upon the specifics of your loans, but it unless those loans are subsidized if you're not making more than the interest your paying, you're better off just repaying the loans. I guess unless there is a penalty for early repayment - or if that starts your repayment period... I'm just jealous of people with leftovers

 

[ChiGiVara]

On my last rotation (FM) I worked with at least 3 residents who were in their 2nd choice career. 2 of them had failed to match in EM and 1 had wanted to do EM but hadn't even tried to apply (Carribean, low steps, think he had failed some stuff too)...

I absolutely agree with you!!! 100%
However, in our country medicine - one of the most low paid and unpromising specialities, therefore in medical universities there are only last fans. As I, for example...🙄

 

[naegleria brain]

thank you. i hate people who spout bull**** about only needing the 'bare necessities' in life. these are the type of people who likely have NO IDEA what poverty means. No, volunteering in Africa for a summer doesn't count.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with physicians demanding a certain standard of living. ibankers do it; consultants do it; lawyers do it; why can't doctors? if anything, the services that doctors render are MORE valuable than that rendered by other similar-paying careers.

we all decided to go into medicine because we all like the work that medicine entails. that does NOT mean that we can't argue for higher salaries/compensation.

and as for the OP's comment, it does stress me out that I have no idea if i will be able to enter the residency of my choice. it's a complicated application process and it's not entirely a meritocracy. but i guess that's what we signed up for, right? :/

you two and amory are my favorite people for today, rock on!

first off, there's a lotta bull**** in getting into medical school, i love emdicine, i love helping people blah blah. once you get here no one says that nonsense anymore, its about getting into residency, and gettin a freakin job. all that hippie bull**** is out the window and the real world comes into focus. this talk is unspeakable in a premed group, but now that we're here its time to open our eyes.

those that still espouse those views are very rare to come by, and several of them just refuse to open their eyes.

you get money by giving a service. in general those thatmake a ****load do some impressive stuff, read bill gates, steve jobbs. think of the ingenuity behind these guys and how they were compensated. there's nothing wrong wanting a huge salary AND WORKING for it. not becoming a tom cruise/oprah winfrey douchebag, but an actual hardowrking highly paid professional.

amory - your comments as to not getting into your dream specialty, spot on. that's why i tell all incoming med students to find out what they want to do ASAP. the earlier you know, you can start working for it. its hard to get yourself to do well without actually finding something youre working for. "keeping your options open" doesnt act, for most, as a stimulus to get your ass in the library. moreover, you find what you want to do, you start talkin to those guys, make connections, and do what you gotta do to get in. if your in an american medical school, and find out end of year 1, and start working with those people, i'm fairly confident you'll succeed.

people won't be happy with anything in medicine. a trauma surgeon and a psychiatrist are as different as electricians and stock brokers. the fact that it's still "medicine" is such a loose association that it doesnt even warrant a comparison. true a trauma surgeon can be happy in CT, ortho, nsurg, maybe even ophtho, but not in peds, FP, psychiatyr. a psychiatrists could be happy in fp, peds, but probably not surgery. a pediatrician may not be happy in geriatrics. face it, all specialties in medicine aren't for everyone. hopefully you can find a second choice similar to your first (read: trauma surgeon becoming an EM, orthopedist finding a way to ENT, etc.) but for god's sake figure out what you want to do and work for it. you'll be happier in the end.

 

[doctorp82]

Ah, makes sense. Now, this totally depends upon the specifics of your loans, but it unless those loans are subsidized if you're not making more than the interest your paying, you're better off just repaying the loans. I guess unless there is a penalty for early repayment - or if that starts your repayment period... I'm just jealous of people with leftovers

Right. Part of my loans are subsidized, part of them aren't. So there is that problem. It isn't technically making money, as said. I've just saved that amount up from 'leftovers'. I suspect that if I ever needed an emergency fund, I have that to draw from rather than make more debt by using credit or what have you. Just in case my vehicle does suddenly have a meteorite hit it, for example. Eventually I'll have to repay loans, but if that money is still sitting there, I will put it towards the loans. I realize that I'm letting some interest capitalize in the meantime though. Something I will do to offset that is to pay off the interest and not pay on the loan. That helps.