Second Looks

[Harrison486]

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I've been hearing a lot of different things about "second looks" and I was just curious to see what everyone else thought of them. I know that in some specialties (ie. Urology) second looks are almost required and if you don't do one, you drop down the rank list. Is it like that for anesthesiology? Do I need to make sure to do second looks at some of my top programs if I happened to not do an away rotation there or are second looks in anesthesiology purely for the applicant and have no impact on the rank list?

 

[michigangirl]

Second looks are mostly for the applicant. Yes, it helps delineate your special interest in the program, but there are other ways of doing this than an expensive trip. By no means is it a make or break for the rank list.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Second looks are mostly for the applicant. Yes, it helps delineate your special interest in the program, but there are other ways of doing this than an expensive trip. By no means is it a make or break for the rank list.

Agree with above.

 

[RussianJoo]

I think a 2nd look helped me. I was told by a resident that if I wanted to match there I should do a 2nd look. I did a 2nd and matched, would I have matched here if I hadn't done a 2nd look maybe, maybe not. It all depends on your situation, for me not matching was a bigger scare than spending extra cash, and in the long run the extra $700 isn't that much more to spend just so I could say, I did everything I could. However, if you're pretty sure you'll match somewhere but would rather match in your top 2 or 3 programs then maybe it's not worth it.

I would think some programs don't care about 2nd looks and some do, and there's no way of knowing which programs are which.

 

[kazuma]

A buddy and I were both told at OU that if I we were serious about the program I that we should do a second look. However, that was the only program that told me that second looks are important for ranking. Throughout the interview season OU was #3 or #4 on my ROL and I didn't have the cash to do a second look. I ended up making a switch the week ROL's were due and bumped OU to #1 partly because it was categorical and my previous #1 was advanced only. I regretted making that last minute switch and wondered if I had made the right choice. Luckily I didn't match match there and instead matched to my #2. If I had known that scrambling into an internship was going to be as easy as sending an email to my home program, then I would have never made the switch.

Would've I matched at OU if I had done a second look? I'll never know, but it might have helped. Fortunately I matched into my #2 and scrambled into a TY internship which was what I had originally hoped for.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

None of the programs I received interviews at cared about a second visit.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

A buddy and I were both told at OU that if I we were serious about the program I that we should do a second look. However, that was the only program that told me that second looks are important for ranking. Throughout the interview season OU was #3 or #4 on my ROL and I didn't have the cash to do a second look. I ended up making a switch the week ROL's were due and bumped OU to #1 partly because it was categorical and my previous #1 was advanced only. I regretted making that last minute switch and wondered if I had made the right choice. Luckily I didn't match match there and instead matched to my #2. If I had known that scrambling into an internship was going to be as easy as sending an email to my home program, then I would have never made the switch.

Would've I matched at OU if I had done a second look? I'll never know, but it might have helped. Fortunately I matched into my #2 and scrambled into a TY internship which was what I had originally hoped for.

how you doing buddy? been a while.

 

[michigangirl]

I think a 2nd look helped me. I was told by a resident that if I wanted to match there I should do a 2nd look. I did a 2nd and matched, would I have matched here if I hadn't done a 2nd look maybe, maybe not. It all depends on your situation, for me not matching was a bigger scare than spending extra cash, and in the long run the extra $700 isn't that much more to spend just so I could say, I did everything I could. However, if you're pretty sure you'll match somewhere but would rather match in your top 2 or 3 programs then maybe it's not worth it.

I would think some programs don't care about 2nd looks and some do, and there's no way of knowing which programs are which.

There's a big difference between thinking you may not match anywhere and wanting with all your heart to match at your #1 or #2 when you know you'll match somewhere. If not matching at your 1 or 2 would be devastating because you can't imagine yourself anywhere else (i.e. location requirements, etc.), then I would argue you should have done an audition rotation there. You're right, you don't know if a second look will make a difference at a particular place. So if you think you'll match SOMEWHERE but #1 is the end all be all, do something definitive, not nonspecific and potentially expensive but not fruitful.

 

[ashkenazi1234]

i hear second looks can be bad or good. you might get paired up with an attending or resident for a whole day and if you two dont jive well, then thats the end for you... might be an off day... why risk it?

 

[kazuma]

how you doing buddy? been a while.

Doing well, how have you been? Just studying for step 3 and looking forward to CA1 year starting this summer. While I'm not looking forward to the >2200 mile move, it's a small price to pay to get out of this 20 degree weather.

i hear second looks can be bad or good. you might get paired up with an attending or resident for a whole day and if you two dont jive well, then thats the end for you... might be an off day... why risk it?

I've heard this as well.

 

[El Dooderino]

There's probably an inverse relationship between program prestige and how much they matter

 

[Gern Blansten]

There's probably an inverse relationship between program prestige and how much they matter

Seems like that would be true, but not always. Those who have been following things for years will remember several very prestigious programs that have gone unfilled on match day while other, less nationally known programs fill easily with top notch candidates.
Sometimes the large well known programs get complacent and think they can rest on their laurels without putting much effort into recruiting. As we have seen, it can bite a program in the butt if they don't make the effort.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Doing well, how have you been? Just studying for step 3 and looking forward to CA1 year starting this summer. While I'm not looking forward to the >2200 mile move, it's a small price to pay to get out of this 20 degree weather.

You tellin' me. I'm freezing, at least it's not been nearly as bad as years passed. I'm trying, but struggling, to study for Step 3. When do you take?

 

[cchoukal]

I'm not a PD and I'm not on a residency adcom, but I'd be surprised if a 2nd look improved your chances of matching. For a 2nd look to matter, you'd have to assume the following:

The PD knows you actually did a 2nd look.
PD gets feedback from whomever you worked with that day.
The program would alter their rank list based on the increased level of interest demonstrated by your effort to visit them again.
(think of it like this: does that hot girl you're after like you more, now that she knows you're really into her?).

Instead, I suspect the program ranks the applicants in the order that they'd like them to match, and while an applicant's interest level may play a very small role in that equation, I'd be surprised if it made a difference in where they rank you.

This is the corollary, by the way, to the age-old question of whether to alter YOUR rank list based on a program's feigned interest in you, in the form of misleading letters about how much they like you and where they plan to rank you. (The answer, of course, is "No").

 

[kazuma]

You tellin' me. I'm freezing, at least it's not been nearly as bad as years passed. I'm trying, but struggling, to study for Step 3. When do you take?

Signed up for 2/13. Looking forward to getting it out of the way so I can focus more on gas reading.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Signed up for 2/13. Looking forward to getting it out of the way so I can focus more on gas reading.

No ****. Same here. Just doing the qbank? i have boards/wards, trying to read it.

 

[yankeehotel]

Having just finished the application cycle (a year after this thread was posted), I think the best advice I've heard is to ASK THE RESIDENTS if 2nd looks are expected or encouraged. Every program is different, and I think things are changing as the ACGME is cracking down on post-interview communication and influence of second looks. A few things that I've either seen personally or heard through friends at my school for the 2013-14 cycle:

--> at least 2 "top tier" programs make a note of who does a second look and this is communicated to the PD.
--> one resident described his second look as a second interview and made it clear that the results were reported to the PD
--> during the second look for a top tier program, there was an oppty to speak at length with the PD and chief
--> several programs emphasized strongly that the second looks do not influence ranks at all

Bottom line is that: 1) no program will admit that it makes any difference; 2) in reality, it likely makes a difference to some programs and no difference to others; 3) keep in mind that a second look can be seen as a second interview at some programs, so as others have said, it may help or hurt you.

 

[Guillemot]

I think you should instead just send the PD a $500-$1000 (depending on ho much you liked the program) gift certificate for one of the local bars with an attached hand written note stating how you hope to hang out with him/her on a regular basis after you match there.