setting realistic expectation for the remainder of this cycle

[beetschutefarm]

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Hi all,

I had a decent amount of confidence coming into this cycle but it is going away very rapidly... So I wanted to ask for y'all's advice and gauge my chances of getting in this cycle.

Some information on my application:
I am a non-Canadian international, and did my undergrad at a pre-med heavy US undergrad.

GPA: ~3.9 (both science and cumulative)
MCAT: 513 -> retake 517
Basic science research: ~4000 hours at two labs
Clinical research: 250 hours at two labs
Clinical volunteering: currently at another position and predicting another 200 hours by the end of next summer
Shadowing: 50h



Current status: received and attended one interview in September and just received the R today. I received many pre-II Rs, one hold, and have silence on the rest 30+ schools.

The rejection came to me as a slight shock because I received an early interview invite and had confidence going in and out of the interview. I have also been feeling very defeated by the many pre-interview rejections. I am already considering a potential plan B in case of of failure of this cycle... So i wanted to get some advice from fellow SDNers on setting realistic expectations, what else I can do to improve my chances in the meantime, and some ideas on what other career paths I could pursue if I fail (with a basic science Bachelor's degree). Most of my concerns also come from the fact that I am an international student and I am only legally allowed to work here for three years post graduation, so I have some limitations in terms of trying for another cycle.

Best,
a very sad applicant

 

[crazymedguy123]

I think you should:

Shadow a primary care doctor
Work in a clinical setting during gap year (CNA, MA, scribe, EMT, etc)
Volunteer more (as you have been)

Dedicating your time to research is probably not going to help you at this point (unless you are applying MD-PhD) since you have a lot of hours. Your GPA and MCAT are good (I was questioning the retake but the 123 CARS I assume is the reason why) and there's no need to do post-bacc or MCAT retake (except for score expiration if needed). You applied early which is good.

You need to make sure that during a future cycle that you have stellar essays and work on interview skills. Immediate R from an interview may be a sign that you need to work on communication.

Otherwise, it is still early to worry. It isn't Thanksgiving yet and you have 30+ schools to still hear from. If you get more II's, really make sure your interview skills are solid because you are definitely fighting an uphill battle as an international applicant. How much time do you have left in terms of being allowed to work in the US? Because that will determine whether it is possible for you to try another cycle

 

[DokterMom]

Please pardon my bluntness, but --

Your numbers are good, but all of the activities you mention seem very laser-focused on getting you into medical school. So helping you, not helping humanity. Do some non-clinical volunteering that gets your hands dirty serving others in need.

 

[chaim123]

I am already considering a potential plan B in case of of failure of this cycle.

In the wise words of Goro, you should always be improving yourself and executing Plan B until there is an acceptance in hand. I agree that your service / clinical time is low, and schools may be questioning why you are applying MD and not PhD

 

[candbgirl]

Your stats are great but your ECs are research heavy . You seem to have forgotten that medicine is a service profession and the only person being served is you! You applied with 80 hours of clinical experience. Really? The average is 150 hours and international students need to be way above average. You don’t seem to have any direct service with the underserved/unserved in your community. I know someone has to do the administrative work but you have to get out of your comfort zone and work with people at homeless shelters,soup kitchens etc. You have 500 hours of Greek Life work. That helps nobody in need. It helps you and the other Greek life students. Couldn’t you do some volunteering with those less fortunate than yourself? You need at least 150 hours. And you need some primary care shadowing too! I hope you are working on the big holes in your application. It’s common sense and widely believed that until you have an acceptance you are rejected. So keep working so if you have to reapply you’ll be ready. Schools expect reapplicants to have significantly improved their application when they reapply.

 

[Goro]

Hi all,

I had a decent amount of confidence coming into this cycle but it is going away very rapidly... So I wanted to ask for y'all's advice and gauge my chances of getting in this cycle.

Some information on my application:
I am a non-Canadian international from an Asian country, and did my undergrad at a pre-med heavy US undergrad.

GPA: ~3.9 (both science and cumulative)
MCAT: 513 (130/123/130/130) --> retake 517 (131/126/130/130)
Basic science research: ~4000 hours at two labs (currently doing gap year at one), one publication on a major journal (not first or second), one first author poster
Clinical research: 250 hours at two labs, one first author poster, another poster submitting soon
Clinical volunteering: 80 hours on AMCAS, but currently at another position and predicting another 200 hours by the end of next summer
Shadowing: 10h on adult psychiatry and 50h on child psychiatry
Leadership: president of a greek life organization ~500 hours
Community service: exec positions at a national service club in our school's chapter ~250 hours


In terms of timeline: AMCAS completed 06/02, and sent out secondaries between 07/06 and 08/10
applied to pretty much every school that says they accept international students

Current status: received and attended one interview in September and just received the R today. I received many pre-II Rs, one hold, and have silence on the rest 30+ schools.

The rejection came to me as a slight shock because I received an early interview invite and had confidence going in and out of the interview. I have also been feeling very defeated by the many pre-interview rejections. I am already considering a potential plan B in case of of failure of this cycle... So i wanted to get some advice from fellow SDNers on setting realistic expectations, what else I can do to improve my chances in the meantime, and some ideas on what other career paths I could pursue if I fail (with a basic science Bachelor's degree). Most of my concerns also come from the fact that I am an international student and I am only legally allowed to work here for three years post graduation, so I have some limitations in terms of trying for another cycle.

Best,
a very sad applicant

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

 

[beetschutefarm]

Hi all, thank you for all the well-elaborated responses here! Great resources and suggestions on clinical volunteering and service opportunities.

I understand that it is because i only put my hours there and did not describe what exactly i did that it sounded like i am checking off lists.

The 80 hour volunteering gig I had was with inner city child& adolescent psychiatric patients. I learned a lot about inner city violence and the abuse & neglect these children went through, very eye-opening experience i otherwise would not have had if I kept myself within my university's bubble. I ultimately decided to discontinue my involvement there and spent more time in conducting a research evaluating the clinic's crisis line, because I had much more intellectual input in the project and thought that bringing this protocol to a national conference would allow me to achieve a bigger impact. When I was volunteering, staff really did not allow me to do much other than playing games with the children and occasionally contributing to an educational group. A very similar situation is happening with my current position at an ER, volunteers are not expected to do much other than conversing with patients, and I would say 50% of patients I met on my shift did not want to be bothered. I did enjoy the times I get to interact with patients and learn about their healthcare experience.

For my community service, I was a counselor for kids with parents who have/had cancer. I also interacted with families a lot as my role was to recruit these families to come to campus/our annual events. I also attempted to do EMT this past spring, but I didn't continue because I did not find myself to be a great fit in the culture of the firehouse and did not think they treated their volunteers kindly.

Anyways, I am continuing my current clinical work and planning to shadow EM doctors this weekend. I am considering to leave my current full-time research job a several months earlier than planned to do scribing, but not decided yet because I do want to keep my verbal commitment to the lab I made that I would stay for two years.

I am also suspecting that because my clinical research, volunteering, and shadowing are all psychiatry heavy that schools think I am not open-minded enough.

 

[beetschutefarm]

I think you should:

Shadow a primary care doctor
Work in a clinical setting during gap year (CNA, MA, scribe, EMT, etc)
Volunteer more (as you have been)

Dedicating your time to research is probably not going to help you at this point (unless you are applying MD-PhD) since you have a lot of hours. Your GPA and MCAT are good (I was questioning the retake but the 123 CARS I assume is the reason why) and there's no need to do post-bacc or MCAT retake (except for score expiration if needed). You applied early which is good.

You need to make sure that during a future cycle that you have stellar essays and work on interview skills. Immediate R from an interview may be a sign that you need to work on communication.

Otherwise, it is still early to worry. It isn't Thanksgiving yet and you have 30+ schools to still hear from. If you get more II's, really make sure your interview skills are solid because you are definitely fighting an uphill battle as an international applicant. How much time do you have left in terms of being allowed to work in the US? Because that will determine whether it is possible for you to try another cycle

Thank you for your kind advice 🙂 in terms of working in the US, I have three years to work post graduation, and I am on my second year right now (planned to take two gap years). I would still be good if I reapply the very next cycle, but i'd have to do another degree (master's) if I wanted to buy myself more time. I am planning to call the admission officer and ask for feedback, because I did receive positive feedbacks from my school's career coach and my current PI when i did mock interviews with them, so really scratching my head here...

 

[crazymedguy123]

Hi all, thank you for all the well-elaborated responses here! Great resources and suggestions on clinical volunteering and service opportunities.

I understand that it is because i only put my hours there and did not describe what exactly i did that it sounded like i am checking off lists.

The 80 hour volunteering gig I had was with inner city child& adolescent psychiatric patients. I learned a lot about inner city violence and the abuse & neglect these children went through, very eye-opening experience i otherwise would not have had if I kept myself within my university's bubble. I ultimately decided to discontinue my involvement there and spent more time in conducting a research evaluating the clinic's crisis line, because I had much more intellectual input in the project and thought that bringing this protocol to a national conference would allow me to achieve a bigger impact. When I was volunteering, staff really did not allow me to do much other than playing games with the children and occasionally contributing to an educational group. A very similar situation is happening with my current position at an ER, volunteers are not expected to do much other than conversing with patients, and I would say 50% of patients I met on my shift did not want to be bothered. I did enjoy the times I get to interact with patients and learn about their healthcare experience.

For my community service, I was a counselor for kids with parents who have/had cancer. I also interacted with families a lot as my role was to recruit these families to come to campus/our annual events. I also attempted to do EMT this past spring, but I didn't continue because I did not find myself to be a great fit in the culture of the firehouse and did not think they treated their volunteers kindly.

Anyways, I am continuing my current clinical work and planning to shadow EM doctors this weekend. I am considering to leave my current full-time research job a several months earlier than planned to do scribing, but not decided yet because I do want to keep my verbal commitment to the lab I made that I would stay for two years.

I am also suspecting that because my clinical research, volunteering, and shadowing are all psychiatry heavy that schools think I am not open-minded enough.

How many hours a week do you work in the lab? Maybe you can switch to part time in the lab and do part time of something else clinically related. If you already have an EMT cert then consider looking for positions in other firehouses/EMS locations. Maybe you will like their culture better.

 

[Deleted member 953708]

Hi all, thank you for all the well-elaborated responses here! Great resources and suggestions on clinical volunteering and service opportunities.

I understand that it is because i only put my hours there and did not describe what exactly i did that it sounded like i am checking off lists.

The 80 hour volunteering gig I had was with inner city child& adolescent psychiatric patients. I learned a lot about inner city violence and the abuse & neglect these children went through, very eye-opening experience i otherwise would not have had if I kept myself within my university's bubble. I ultimately decided to discontinue my involvement there and spent more time in conducting a research evaluating the clinic's crisis line, because I had much more intellectual input in the project and thought that bringing this protocol to a national conference would allow me to achieve a bigger impact. When I was volunteering, staff really did not allow me to do much other than playing games with the children and occasionally contributing to an educational group. A very similar situation is happening with my current position at an ER, volunteers are not expected to do much other than conversing with patients, and I would say 50% of patients I met on my shift did not want to be bothered. I did enjoy the times I get to interact with patients and learn about their healthcare experience.

For my community service, I was a counselor for kids with parents who have/had cancer. I also interacted with families a lot as my role was to recruit these families to come to campus/our annual events. I also attempted to do EMT this past spring, but I didn't continue because I did not find myself to be a great fit in the culture of the firehouse and did not think they treated their volunteers kindly.

Anyways, I am continuing my current clinical work and planning to shadow EM doctors this weekend. I am considering to leave my current full-time research job a several months earlier than planned to do scribing, but not decided yet because I do want to keep my verbal commitment to the lab I made that I would stay for two years.

I am also suspecting that because my clinical research, volunteering, and shadowing are all psychiatry heavy that schools think I am not open-minded enough.

You definitely have a good point in recognizing that many of your experiences center on psychiatry. When I was getting ready to apply I asked for advice from AdComs at a school at which I had done research\, and almost every one of them had the same advice: shadow a variety of specialties and do well on the MCAT. Your MCAT score is definitely high enough, but you could get some variety in your shadowing experiences--shadow a family doc or a pediatrician and a specialist or two. This will show AdComs that you like the idea of medicine as a whole, not just psychiatry specifically.

I also agree with much of what has been said above regarding volunteering. You have more than enough research for just about any MD program; participate in other selfless activities and programs to show that you are altruistic, and that you truly want to help people.

All of that said, I would relax! I am applying this cycle as well, and I have received interview invitations from about half of the schools I applied to--I haven't heard anything from the other half. There is still plenty of time to hear back from (and interview with) programs. One of my classmates, currently at Yale School of Medicine, didn't even hear back about an interview there until after Christmas break! You never know what will happen between now and February, so don't get too discouraged yet.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.


Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

I worked as a nurses aide for 3 summers in college. Nothing like starting at the bottom to get an idea what caring for others is like