Should completing the dissertation be a pre-internship requirement?

[futureapppsy2]

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Although I've known a couple of people who've actually finished their dissertation while on internship, for many people, internship year is so busy that they get little done on their diss and don't graduate until the year after. In my experience, this creates delays and loss of momentum (and at least in one case, squandering a post-doc year from their internship site). Many programs now require a dissertation be proposed before applying for internship, but would it be better in the long-run to require that the dissertation actually be completed before internship?

In the much longer run, it might even support the movement for interns to be degreed and provisionally licensed on internship, thus creating the potential for insurance billing on internship.

What do you think?

 

[KillerDiller]

I think more stringent dissertation requirements are great in theory, but I see some problems in implementing them. The main issue is that there is nearly a year lag between a department approving a student to apply for internship and the actual start of internship. Requiring a student to defend the dissertation before applying seems overly harsh considering that he or she would then have to sit back and do nothing for months and months until internship starts (and that's assuming the student matches).* On the other hand, if you simply require students defend their dissertations before leaving for internship, then that becomes impossible to enforce. The match is a binding contract, so I can't see it being feasible to say "oops, sorry, Janie didn't defend her dissertation, so she can't go after all."

One solution I can see is requiring data collection to be done by the time students apply for internship. Then again, dissertations are so variable. For some people, this would be requiring the bulk of the work to be completed. For others, it would be a minimal chunk and they'd still have to do the majority of work during internship.

*I'm sure we can all think of productive ways to spend this year, especially those on academic tracks. At the same time, I can also see it being viewed as mostly busy work biding yet more time until an actual degree is conferred.

 

[aagman01]

Well, I am one of those folks who completed dissertation while on internship. It did get a bit busy at times, especially towards the end of internship when I was preparing to wrap up internship, defend, and move. All 3 happened within about a week at the end. Fortunately, everything worked out well - defended dissertation the 3rd week of June, completed internship at the end of June, moved at the end of June, and have been on a much deserved time-off/"vacation" until I start my postdoc next week 🙂

There is a role that personal responsibility plays in all this - why dictate when someone can apply for internship? Some will get their work done during internship, others won't. Those that don't are only hurting themselves. While there were certainly times when I wished I had completed my dissertation prior to the start of internship, everything worked out quite well.

 

[Pragma]

This type of a mandate may water down the quality of dissertations.

I am all for getting it done before (did so myself a few years back), but it just isn't feasible for everyone.

I am more worried about people getting an internship, period, than going ABD. Sure ABD has its risks, but as aagman mentioned, it is ultimately the student's responsibility to make these things happen in a doable timeframe.

 

[erg923]

I also finished mine and defended on internship. Would I have preffered to have it done before? Yea. Probably would have saved some psychic anxiety in the fall and winter months. Although I was never really afraid that I wasn't gonna finish the thing in time or anything.

I agree with difficulty in enforcement here. What I will say that I would like to see internship training comittees back off in having this as a factor in their rankings..or when they are sorting through apps. If its that big of deal for your site, then you should just make it a requirement to even apply. I suppose they have the right to do such a thing? Require it, dont require it, whateever but don't F with students and have be some ghostly factor that may or may not impact their ability to intern there.

 

[Ollie123]

Agree with the above...just not sure its practical, or that it would be the best idea even if it were. As much as I like the idea of making a case for internship being post-doc since I think it would greatly assist with funding problems and some other issues, I'm not sure how this could be enforced given the present system. To me, if it were to happen, THAT is the reason to do it - not to try and keep people from going ABD after internship. Sometimes things take longer than expected - someone runs into an issue with data collection, could finish up on internship, but has to push things back a whole year, etc. Not to mention the current match system is not conducive to students "maybe" matching.

I also agree with Pragma's concerns it would water down dissertations. Or, more likely, just increase the time to completion for research-focused students who aren't willing to water them down

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agree with all of the above as well. I can certainly understand the argument for requiring that it be proposed pre-internship, but requiring a defense could get sticky, particularly if problems pop up (as they often do) during participant recruitment, with scheduling meetings, or with having committee members leaving the university.

Our program actually has fairly lax criteria (at least in terms of set-in-stone edicts), and I ended up proposing and defending while on internship. I was a bit of a special case, though, and this varies widely by lab. I highly, highly recommend against following in my footsteps, as it made for a particularly busy 8-9 months marked by more than a few weekday near-all-nighters.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There is a role that personal responsibility plays in all this - why dictate when someone can apply for internship? Some will get their work done during internship, others won't. Those that don't are only hurting themselves. While there were certainly times when I wished I had completed my dissertation prior to the start of internship, everything worked out quite well.

I think 'requiring' a dissertation be done prior to internship would be more problematic than good. However, many sites have shown a preference to students who are farther along in the process (mine did, and made a point to tell applicants that it mattered). Sites do not want to have the reputation that students go there and then don't get post-docs....even if it is bc the students that match there are fine with taking another year (or more) to finish their dissertation.

I think a positive change would be a 'required' (of all APA-acred sites) minimum of 4hrs per week be put aside for student research...whether it be for their dissertation or other scholarly pursuit. My site was very clinically focused, yet they offered/required a 1/2 day per week of protected research time for anyone who had not finished their dissertation. This wouldn't be a cure-all, but I think it would definitely help students who were close but not quite able to pull everything together to defend by the end of the intern year.

 

[Doctor Eliza]

One benefit of such a requirement might be reducing the internship crisis. I know of (at least) two people who completed APA internships (i.e., took a spot from someone else) who never completed their dissertations and therefore never got their degrees. One of the students was from my program which required that you defended your proposal by September in the year that you planned to apply for internship. You'd think that would reduce this sort of thing, but apparently it isn't foolproof.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[EmotRegulation]

I agree with the others who have said that enforcing completion of the dissertation would be difficult. I fully intended to be done with data collection before I left for internship but couldn't due to unforeseen recruitment problems. It wasn't my fault (well, in part it was, because I made the inclusion criteria strict and I didn't realize ahead of time this would pose problems for me, even in a large city, and I suppose I could have tried to start data collection sooner), and pushed my defense until the end of my internship year.

There is just too much variability in dissertations to ensure that either data collection or defense to occur prior to the start of internship.

I've said for a long time that a doctorate is more about self-motivation and persistence than about intelligence. (Let's ignore the internship crisis here for a moment, as that puts a wrench in the completion rates for clinical/counseling/school programs)

Right now, other than the joy of having more free time during internship, there is little incentive for people to finish. If there were a tangible incentive, maybe people would aim for that, with encouragement from programs. I know some states have allowed students to count internship hours as post-doctoral hours toward licensure after the degree is defended. Similarly if billing could occur post-defense, that might push some students to finish faster or wait a year to apply for internship. Either might be helpful, though with the potential consequence of watering down the dissertation quality, per others statements.

 

[Pragma]

One benefit of such a requirement might be reducing the internship crisis. I know of (at least) two people who completed APA internships (i.e., took a spot from someone else) who never completed their dissertations and therefore never got their degrees. One of the students was from my program which required that you defended your proposal by September in the year that you planned to apply for internship. You'd think that would reduce this sort of thing, but apparently it isn't foolproof.

Best,
Dr. E

Hey, if someone chooses not to finish their dissertation, then so be it. That is their choice and they are in the minority.

 

[psychRA]

Hey, if someone chooses not to finish their dissertation, then so be it. That is their choice and they are in the minority.

It's true that choosing not to finish the dissertation is an individual decision. It's also a fact that there is an insufficient supply of internship slots, and that this shortage delays some people in completing their degree.

These facts are not mutually exclusive - someone who goes on internship but doesn't finish their degree is fully within their rights to do so, AND has taken an internship slot that could have gone to someone who did plan to finish their degree.

ETA: I'm not implying that people head off to internship with the knowledge that they're not going to finish their program. I'm guessing that, to the extent that this happens at all, people run into issues with finishing their dissertation later in the process. And I don't think that anyone should be required to defend their dissertation before internship, for the same reasons that other have already stated. But I think it's still accurate to say that noncompletion of the degree, however rare, doesn't help the internship imbalance.

 

[Pragma]

It's true that choosing not to finish the dissertation is an individual decision. It's also a fact that there is an insufficient supply of internship slots, and that this shortage delays some people in completing their degree.

These facts are not mutually exclusive - someone who goes on internship but doesn't finish their degree is fully within their rights to do so, AND has taken an internship slot that could have gone to someone who did plan to finish their degree.

Yeah. So what?

This has to be infrequent enough of an occurrence that it doesn't warrant much thought, considering the systemic problems that are 98% responsible for the internship crisis.

 

[Pragma]

ETA: I'm not implying that people head off to internship with the knowledge that they're not going to finish their program. I'm guessing that, to the extent that this happens at all, people run into issues with finishing their dissertation later in the process. And I don't think that anyone should be required to defend their dissertation before internship, for the same reasons that other have already stated. But I think it's still accurate to say that noncompletion of the degree, however rare, doesn't help the internship imbalance.

I saw that you added this to your post.

Had I finished my APA-accredited internship and then run into some personal issue that kept me from completing my dissertation, I probably would have felt bad enough about it. I wouldn't need people walking around blaming me for the internship crisis on top of it. It also isn't really accurate, because to lay that blame suggests that folks who do not ultimately finish their degree have no right to an internship. I'd disagree with that premise.

 

[ForensicPsych26]

For my program, it is a requirement that we complete our dissertation prior to internship. Has it made life stressful...have other students had to add on another year...do I sometimes wish it was different? Yes...but overall I am SO happy that I will be completing and defending my dissertation prior to internship. I saw some interns this year at my practicum who were running around, pulling their hair out to finish their dissertations and obtain a post-doc. I think that completing the dissertation prior to internship is helpful, as I can then concentrate on the research offered by the facility, and my training within the facility.