Should I interview at DMU?

[LieutenantDan]

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I appreciate any advice for my situation:
I have done a few interviews and I have a few acceptances, and what I look for in a school is mostly:
1. Good rotations (especially for neurology, psych and gen surg)
2. Good enough reputation to be competitive for good residencies in these fields, with a goal of practicing in the Pacific Northwest
3. Total cost of attendance being low so I have debt slightly below my eyeballs

I have an acceptance to AZCOM which is my current favorite, but I have interview invites for DMU and CCOM and I am running low on funds.
I am leaning towards interviewing at DMU over CCOM because of the great things I hear about the program as well as the lower cost, but I am wondering if I should save my money (total travel cost to interview at DMU is around $700 for me) and go to AZCOM, given that AZCOM is closer to where I ultimately want to practice and my interview would be for Feb 10 at DMU (possibly late in cycle).
Any advice would be greatly appreciated and thank you all!

Update:
That interview day at DMU was full when I tried to select it, I am now waiting to hear on an alternative day because all days are full for Feb. My CCOM interview is 3/19

 

[DocGodfather]

If AZ is your number one choice, and you got accepted, then withdraw from everywhere else. There's no point in spending money on airline tickets, hotels, and rental cars, just to attend interviews. I would say go for it just for the experience if you're loaded, but you're not. Start saving up for school.

 

[DrapDO]

I have to beat FrkyBgStok and tell you to go to DMU. the cost of attendance at DMU is much cheaper I mean 50,000 vs. 39,000 difference for tuition alone makes that $700 investment seem pretty logical to make. The Rep of DMU is awesome (2nd oldest DO school), and the facilities are great, the match list and boards are impressive. I am from Idaho as well and was accepted to both DMU and AZCOM and would have picked DMU hands down. To say it in one sentence, there is nothing at AZCOM that isn't just as good or better at DMU for 22% less money. Also if you think you might want to do surgery DMU would have another advantage as you are required to take a surgical skills class.

PS I am not in the least saying that AZCOM is a second rate school ( they were in my top 3), If you go there I'm sure you will be happy and get a great education I just don't think that they are even close to being 44,000 better than DMU.

 

[octupus]

if AZCOM is where you want to be due to location and there's no compelling reason for you to want to go elsewhere, then I say save your money and withdraw from other schools. I don't think DO schools are much like MD schools where you can pay the (small) matriculation fee and wait for financial aid packet and decide between a few top choices... the deposit for DO schools is so crazy that there really isn't a reason to attend another interview if you already got into your top choice.

 

[DrWily]

No one can really make that call for you. If you have any inkling that DMU may be the school for you, then you should go and check it out. Sometimes it's hard to get a feel for the school over the intarwebs. All three schools are good, DMU and CCOM have an edge in the reputation department. AZCOM has preceptor-based rotations at some places, so they are really hit-or-miss in that regard. That being said, there have been some rock stars at AZCOM like that one guy who matched derm at mayo clinic a few years back. Its really more about YOU as a person, and how much you push yourself to be the best candidate you can be for residency. If you want to practice in the PNW, then none of these schools would give you an edge over the other. You will have to use your elective away audition rotations to try and secure a residency in the PNW, which you will have at any of these 3.

DMU is a really great school and I wish they hadn't screened me out due to my sGPA. I'd definitely check it out if it was me.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I have to beat FrkyBgStok and tell you to go to DMU. the cost of attendance at DMU is much cheaper I mean 50,000 vs. 39,000 difference for tuition alone makes that $700 investment seem pretty logical to make. The Rep of DMU is awesome (2nd oldest DO school), and the facilities are great, the match list and boards are impressive. I am from Idaho as well and was accepted to both DMU and AZCOM and would have picked DMU hands down. To say it in one sentence, there is nothing at AZCOM that isn't just as good or better at DMU for 22% less money. Also if you think you might want to do surgery DMU would have another advantage as you are required to take a surgical skills class.

PS I am not in the least saying that AZCOM is a second rate school ( they were in my top 3), If you go there I'm sure you will be happy and get a great education I just don't think that they are even close to being 44,000 better than DMU.

haha. i guess I am that predictable. But this is spot on what I was going to say. AZCOM is a great school, but DMU has a very respectable rep and the $700 will be made up instantly if you decide to go there because of the tuition. I am lucky I live in des moines, because DMU really is an awesome school. Even though I am crazy biased, I think everyone should interview if they get a chance as so many people love it.

But last I heard (from a professor who's wife works adjunct at dmu) the spots were dwindling fast. About month ago I think they had about 40 spots left. This is entirely rumor as far as i know, but try to get an interview as early as possible. And make sure they aren't interviewing for waitlist as they have very little waitlist movement (traditionally).

And i would personally pass on the CCOM if I had to decide between CCOM and DMU. Not because CCOM is bad, it is fantastic. But other than MSU's OOS, it is the most expensive tuition for any DO school (followed by AZCOM). And if you want to practice in the west, and have no burning desire to live in chicago, forgo CCOM and save the money going to AZCOM.

 

[LieutenantDan]

Thanks for all that advice that is a lot of good information to consider. I contacted DMU and they were very helpful and manually added me for a Feb 10 interview even though that date was full.

I have family in Iowa and I grew up there for part of my life, my parents and my uncle are grads of UIowa medical school, but they all practice in WA and OR. Almost every DO I have met in the NW has been a DMU grad which makes me think that it must be one of the most well known osteopathic schools, and I have heard nothing but good things about these docs. I really liked AZCOM when I interviewed, I was actually surprised and how much I liked it. There is a Mayo clinic near AZCOM so that may be a good rotation option, the school has a strong match list and I have heard that the rotations have been improving over the years. I don't think AZCOM has a bad reputation by any means in fact I get the impression that they are building a good rep for themselves but that they have a ways to go before they are as well recognized as the older schools. And even though I am getting married and have no interest in dating, I am a little bothered by AZCOMs 70/30 male to female ratio.

As far as school location goes I prefer Iowa over Arizona any day, I sunburn on a cloudy day : (.
And Des Moines has an excellent opera program which is important for my spouse. I was on the fence due to travel costs but everyone who interviewed at DMU says it is an amazing program, some people complain about Des Moines being boring but I am a nerd it doesn't matter to me what the nightlife is like, just the education.

I think I will go for it if my chances are good enough, given where they are in the cycle. My MCAT score is 38 but my GPA is 3.35c, 3.51s and my medically related EC's are a little less than desirable with ~650 hr hospital volunteering, ~170hr shadowing (MD only), 130hr training as a CNA and a few months of part-time volunteer bench research. This school may be a bit of a reach but I will carefully consider your advice. I am leaning toward thinking this school must be too awesome to pass up on even though it may be a risky and expensive proposition. Thanks again!

 

[DrWily]

Thanks for all that advice that is a lot of good information to consider. I contacted DMU and they were very helpful and manually added me for a Feb 10 interview even though that date was full.

I have family in Iowa and I grew up there for part of my life, my parents and my uncle are grads of UIowa medical school, but they all practice in WA and OR. Almost every DO I have met in the NW has been a DMU grad which makes me think that it must be one of the most well known osteopathic schools, and I have heard nothing but good things about these docs. I really liked AZCOM when I interviewed, I was actually surprised and how much I liked it. There is a Mayo clinic near AZCOM so that may be a good rotation option, the school has a strong match list and I have heard that the rotations have been improving over the years. I don't think AZCOM has a bad reputation by any means in fact I get the impression that they are building a good rep for themselves but that they have a ways to go before they are as well recognized as the older schools. And even though I am getting married and have no interest in dating, I am a little bothered by AZCOMs 70/30 male to female ratio.

As far as school location goes I prefer Iowa over Arizona any day, I sunburn on a cloudy day : (.
And Des Moines has an excellent opera program which is important for my spouse. I was on the fence due to travel costs but everyone who interviewed at DMU says it is an amazing program, some people complain about Des Moines being boring but I am a nerd it doesn't matter to me what the nightlife is like, just the education.

I think I will go for it if my chances are good enough, given where they are in the cycle. My MCAT score is 38 but my GPA is 3.35c, 3.51s and my medically related EC's are a little less than desirable with ~650 hr hospital volunteering, ~170hr shadowing (MD only), 130hr training as a CNA and a few months of part-time volunteer bench research. This school may be a bit of a reach but I will carefully consider your advice. I am leaning toward thinking this school must be too awesome to pass up on even though it may be a risky and expensive proposition. Thanks again!

Don't be misinformed about the Mayo Clinic in Scottsdale, AZ. While it still carries the same name, it is not nearly as prestigious as the Mayo Clinic in the midwest we all know and hear about. Its a very small facility. AZCOM has been getting stronger over time, and the rotations are pretty solid from what I can gather. If you plan to practice in the NW, and you see a lot of DMU grads there, then why isn't DMU your #1?! That speaks volumes right there. From the rest of your post, it seems like DMU would fit you better than AZCOM anyday (this coming from a matriculating AZCOM student). Your stats seem fine to me, and if DMU granted you an interview, they're interested in you. Just kill it, kill it good. Good luck.

 

[MrBird]

I would go DMU if I were you. The difference in tuition is a big deal. You'll understand when you take out your first semester loans.

 

[LieutenantDan]

Thanks again, MrBird I agree tuition is pretty scary for medical school, my fiancee complains about her $60,000 debt so far in getting her masters, and even that seems like a mind-boggling amount of money to me. In addition I am thoroughly convinced that doctors salaries will plunge during my career, and the question is when not if. I plan on living frugally anyways but even then the debt burden is formidable. The loans I was looking at were between 7% and 10% annual interest, which means that debt doubles roughly every 7 to 10 years at that rate, and when it accrues from day one of school this is a frightening proposition.

Dr. Wily, I spent most of my childhood trying to kill you, and I was never quite successful. Perhaps I was misguided in thinking you just wanted to take over the world, because you have been very helpful. Thanks

 

[SpecterGT260]

I have to beat FrkyBgStok and tell you to go to DMU. the cost of attendance at DMU is much cheaper I mean 50,000 vs. 39,000 difference for tuition alone makes that $700 investment seem pretty logical to make. The Rep of DMU is awesome (2nd oldest DO school), and the facilities are great, the match list and boards are impressive. I am from Idaho as well and was accepted to both DMU and AZCOM and would have picked DMU hands down. To say it in one sentence, there is nothing at AZCOM that isn't just as good or better at DMU for 22% less money. Also if you think you might want to do surgery DMU would have another advantage as you are required to take a surgical skills class.

PS I am not in the least saying that AZCOM is a second rate school ( they were in my top 3), If you go there I'm sure you will be happy and get a great education I just don't think that they are even close to being 44,000 better than DMU.

I interviewed at DMU last year and your figure of 39000 must be tuition only, correct? because 39k is not the number I left with in my head

 

[Iliketoytles]

Whenever I see "DMU" in a thread, I get all giddy.

And yes, 39k is for tuition. The budget they give for total expenses per year is about 70k (rounded up).

 

[ManBroDude]

Write some letters to some friends, family, doctors, and be up front about financial help for the trip.. Don't let finances get in the way of interviewing at one of the top DO schools. It's a drop in the bucket compared to spending 4 years in a place you hate, potentially.

 

[DrapDO]

I interviewed at DMU last year and your figure of 39000 must be tuition only, correct? because 39k is not the number I left with in my head

That is correct tuition only I was try to keep it simple, but I thought it would be fun to account for cost of living too so here it goes. From DMU's web site the total cost of living ranges from 63k to 69k depending on year. according to AZCOM's web site first year Cost of attendance ranges from 77k on campus living to 83k off campus (didn't see any numbers for years 2-4) DMU's 1st year was 63k so I guess I was off, its closer to 14-21k a year difference depending on or off campus living at AZCOM. Assuming they are consistently 14-21k a year more expensive than DMU which makes a grand total of 56-84k difference not the 44k I guessed at. Also dont forget the 6.7% interest on your student loans that will double or triple that amount by the time you pay it off. Bottom line is AZCOM is a great school that is freaking expensive to attend. DMU is also a great school but it is much less expensive to attend.

HAPPY GROUND HOGS DAY!!!!!

 

[DrWily]

That is correct tuition only I was try to keep it simple, but I thought it would be fun to account for cost of living too so here it goes. From DMU's web site the total cost of living ranges from 62k to 69k depending on year. according to AZCOM's web site first year Cost of attendance ranges from 77k on campus living to 83k off campus (didn't see any numbers for years 2-4) DMU's 1st year was 62k so I guess I was off, its closer to 15-21k a year difference depending on or off campus living at AZCOM. Assuming they are consistently 15-21k a year more expensive than DMU which makes a grand total of 60-84k difference not the 44k I guessed at. Bottom line is AZCOM is a great school that is freaking expensive to attend. DMU is also a great school but it is much less expensive to attend.

HAPPY GROUND HOGS DAY!!!!!

It's been discussed in the AZCOM thread that they are very very generous with the Cost of Attendance in order to give you plenty of options. Most people don't take out nearly as much as they recommend, but I guess that could be said for both schools. Their estimates for books/supplies, cost of living on campus, transportation costs, and personal expenses are all really high estimates. I imagine myself taking out roughly $60-65k in loans for the year, much less than their $77k estimate. I'm going to try my damn hardest to get out with $250k in debt, no more. We'll see how far I make it (I may also cheat a little since my hunnybunny sugarmomma is a well-paid RN 😉)

 

[DrapDO]

I imagine myself taking out roughly $60-65k in loans for the year, much less than their $77k estimate. I'm going to try my damn hardest to get out with $250k in debt, no more. We'll see how far I make it (I may also cheat a little since my hunnybunny sugarmomma is a well-paid RN 😉)

That's great that you are going to be able to budget so well! I agree that if you're doing your planning right you shouldn't take out all the loans you can get no matter where you attend school. However some people will, and others are married have several kids and can't cut costs as easily as others can. No doubt, if you do take out 60-65k you will be in better shape than some at DMU that are not smart with their money, however those at DMU who are just as smart with their money will likely take out at least 11-15k less per year because the tuition saves 11k right off the bat. Back to the bottom line, it is cheaper to live in Des Moines than Glendale and the tuition is cheaper at DMU then AZCOM there for you will spend less money at DMU regardless of how smart or stupid you are with your money because you will be smart or stupid with it at either place. Which is why I originally kept let the cost difference simply at tuition.

If I wouldn't have been accepted to DMU and KCOM I would be joining you in the fall. AZCOM is a great school and im not bashing it in the least, I'm sure you will love it! It's just a little expensive compared to others. Props for being smart with your money. I wish my honeybunny was as well paid! lucky you 😎 , But I can't say im not lucky my wife is awesome and I would'nt trade my daughter for anything.

 

[DrWily]

heh, yes if given the position to choose a cheaper school, I would have made that choice. I was merely highlighting that it's not all *that* bad when you really look at the numbers closely. No matter what though, the tuition cost is definitely more expensive 🙁 Not something I'm happy with, but I'm just happy to be going to school in the first place 🙂

 

[DrapDO]

heh, yes if given the position to choose a cheaper school, I would have made that choice. I was merely highlighting that it's not all *that* bad when you really look at the numbers closely. No matter what though, the tuition cost is definitely more expensive 🙁 Not something I'm happy with, but I'm just happy to be going to school in the first place 🙂

I couldn’t agree with you more! It really is an exciting accomplishment and something to be proud of!!!!!!. I know for a fact I would have very happily gone to any US med school regardless of cost even MSUCOM with that outrageous 75,000 a year OOS tuition😱. Fulfilling your dreams makes it worth it!!

Best of luck for you at AZCOM!

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I couldn’t agree with you more! It really is an exciting accomplishment and something to be proud of!!!!!!. I know for a fact I would have very happily gone to any US med school regardless of cost even MSUCOM with that outrageous 75,000 a year OOS tuition😱. Fulfilling your dreams makes it worth it!!

Best of luck for you at AZCOM!

agreed. it is nice that DMU is fairly cheap, but i don't really care about the cost. I plan on getting max loans because of my family, and the loans are the least of my concerns right now. and if it meant $500k in debt, i would still do it. But it is easy for me to say the now BEFORE med school starts.

 

[LieutenantDan]

I have heard about docs going bankrupt on student debt even at current compensation levels, I don't expect that to happen to me but nothing in the future is certain as far as compensation, and I have a healthy fear of debt.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I have heard about docs going bankrupt on student debt even at current compensation levels, I don't expect that to happen to me but nothing in the future is certain as far as compensation, and I have a healthy fear of debt.

well that's understandable. you probably don't have kids. I have 3 so I am winning at life if I owe less than $20k on credit cards. Besides, you can't take money with you, nor can you take debt. Booyah!

 

[DrapDO]

well that's understandable. you probably don't have kids. I have 3 so I am winning at life if I owe less than $20k on credit cards. Besides, you can't take money with you, nor can you take debt. Booyah!

This is true, but you can leave money for future generations to stay ahead of the game with. However, I want my kids to know how to work for what they want in life, and be successful because of their own merits not daddy’s bank account. Which I’m only hoping will be big, but who knows what the future will bring.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

This is true, but you can leave money for future generations to stay ahead of the game with. However, I want my kids to know how to work for what they want in life, and be successful because of their own merits not daddy’s bank account. Which I’m only hoping will be big, but who knows what the future will bring.

haha. yeah i was kidding and I agree with you. My kids will be about 16, 15, and 13 when I finish residency (assuming about 4 years on average), so if the money does come, it will be when we can help them with things like college, but they will also be old enough to see that i worked my ass off and we lived very cheaply throughout med school and residency. My wife and I have talked about it many times about how this is the perfect time to go to med school. if we do pay for college and buy them a crap ton of stuff later, they lived through the "broke" times so hopefully, they won't be dbags about life later.

 

[DrWily]

I normally don't push products like this, but I really enjoyed this guy's audio book.

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Money-M...078X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328216496&sr=8-1

I found it for free on the interwebs if you are so inclined. I think his strategy is pretty simple, easy to follow for most people, and will definitely help those struggling or missing sound financial guidelines. This is not the be all end all book to managing your finances, but if you are off the path a little or looking for some small help, it's a pretty decent read (listen). I feel like I know a lot of people that fall into financial traps that this guy outlines, and I know a few of them could use a good slap on the head with this book.

 

[DrapDO]

👍
Where Cash is King and Debt is Dumb! 😎 I listen to Dave Ramsey on my drive home from work some times he seems to give pretty good advice.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I am sure he works for many people. I for one loathe Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman. But hey, that's me. But, my wife has her masters in accounting so I got her bitching about him too. I will admit, he is probably great for people who have no financial background, are completely over their head, and need a very simple plan in order to get out. Sure, I can imagine for that stuff, he is valuable. And as you said Dr. Wily, good for people missing sound financial guidelines. I joke about finances as people with kids understand how incredibly expensive they are (just paid $200 for my daughter's dance tuition yesterday for example), but my wife and I are pretty financially sound. And it does eliminate a world of stress.

So sure, if anyone isn't financially sound, I guess I could recommend dave ramsey too. I suppose.

 

[DrWily]

I am sure he works for many people. I for one loathe Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman. But hey, that's me. But, my wife has her masters in accounting so I got her bitching about him too. I will admit, he is probably great for people who have no financial background, are completely over their head, and need a very simple plan in order to get out. Sure, I can imagine for that stuff, he is valuable. And as you said Dr. Wily, good for people missing sound financial guidelines. I joke about finances as people with kids understand how incredibly expensive they are (just paid $200 for my daughter's dance tuition yesterday for example), but my wife and I are pretty financially sound. And it does eliminate a world of stress.

So sure, if anyone isn't financially sound, I guess I could recommend dave ramsey too. I suppose.

Heh, well when one of your good buddies is 25 yrs old, making $35k, owns a sport cars, and a motorcycle that he's making payments on, still lives with his mother, and has no college education or drive to go back to school AND thinking about purchasing a new vehicle...

These are the types of people that I like to slap with this book 😉

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Heh, well when one of your good buddies is 25 yrs old, making $35k, owns a sport cars, and a motorcycle that he's making payments on, still lives with his mother, and has no college education or drive to go back to school AND thinking about purchasing a new vehicle...

These are the types of people that I like to slap with this book 😉

lmao. and I also know people making $100k with a smaller house, moderate cars, cool headed, appearing to live within their means and no major problems that are behind on their payments 3-4 months, a home in short sale, and a motorcycle stored 40 miles away so the repo guy can't find it. So yep, i agree.

 

[DrapDO]

I have some of those friends, married 24 and 28 years old, no savings, no secondary education (waste of money and time according to him), 2 motor cycles, 1 car, 50” HD flat screen, Xbox 360, PSIII, Just got back from a week long cruise, plans to make a career working minimum wage + commission at RC willy(furniture store), wife works at subway, but really wants to be a stay at home mom in a year or two, after all her husband is going to move up latter and have a safe and secure job to support her and their future children any day now! oh and they are thinking seriously about buying a house when 750$ rent forced them out of their old apartment 6 months ago.

 

[LieutenantDan]

I have a close friend who during high school complained about how he was broke trying to pay off the debt on his $8,000 car, he later got $12,000 from an insurance settlement but instead of getting out of debt he used it to get a $20,000 car, for which he again owed $8,000. Only this time he had additional complaints about how his new car only takes premium gas. But that is classic a American attitude toward consumption beyond one's means. School debt is scary to me but at least it is from a productive loan (as opposed to a consumptive loan), and presumably there will be a good return on the investment. Nevertheless physician salaries have to come down at some point (along with a variety of other measures) because our enormous collective debt and spiraling costs will eventually destroy our nation from within if nothing is done. And unfortunately, health care is by far the biggest culprit for the rising expenditures of our nation.
I think this is the ideal time to go to medical school because presumably salaries will be high enough to pay off my debt for a few years after I graduate, but I definitely expect to make much much less than doctors of the previous generation despite much higher student debt and operating costs.

 

[LieutenantDan]

.