Should I let debt decide my career path? Deciding between vet med vs human med

[purplepotatowinter33]

Hi everyone,

I am a little conflicted after finishing the Tuft's pre-vet summer program, and my main concern I have about veterinary medicine is the debt. I specifically asked about the debt during the program, and no one seemed worried about paying off 250K- 300K+ in loans (more like 400k-500k with cost of living included) and what that would mean for their quality of life.

My favorite part of the pre-vet program was the PBL experience where we got to "think like vets" and diagnose a dog, decipher rads & images of blood cells, anything where we were able to do active thinking and "solve" something was my favorite.

Brief background:
-29 yrs old
-CO resident
-grew up with all sorts of animals, lived on a horse facility for a few years
-Married no children (partner is wanting to get a vasectomy)
-Partner works remotely now, does not have college degree but makes around 65K a year currently
-Still have 2 years of undergrad to complete (completed 3 years, was non-science major before so starting over somewhat)
-Currently work as remote veterinary receptionist
-Worked several years in food service, have worked in a classroom for children with special needs, have worked at an elementary school as teacher assistant, have worked a regular vet clinic as kennel/receptionist and vet assistant, briefly was at another 24hr/specialty vet hospital (basically just shadowed vets and did training videos, some VA stuff)
-Have volunteered at animal shelter for a couple years (shadowed vets there briefly), have some volunteering at a couple hospitals (one w/ children) w/ an organization tutoring kids, and w/ organization providing food for shelterless (not long term due to moving shortly after starting)
-Have worked full time since graduating HS, will be working full time this and next semester (will be PT last 2 years to allow time for research, etc.)
-Have done various virtual shadowing in vet med & human med (due to covid, waiting for things to get better to do in-person shadowing)

Dream in veterinary medicine would be to be an aquatics vet (either working at a marine rescue, an aquarium, or traveling to people's home to care of their marine & freshwater fish like the CA fish vet Dr. Jessie Sanders) or exotics (working at a practice seeing fuzzy "pocket pets", but also would be okay w/ reptiles and birds like Dr. T on DisneyPlus). I think I could be okay with shelter medicine though and working in that environment, or possibly internal medicine and other specialties (GI, derm, diagnostic rad)after speaking more w/ doctors in these specialties. I think I could also be okay with just being a regular primary vet as well seeing dogs and cats mainly, but dream would definitely be aquatics or exotics, and aquatics would be #1.

I realize that aquatics (have looked into marvet & aquavet) and exotics would require 2+ years of internships, and then gaining admission to an uber-competitive 3yr residency.

I have zero interest to go into lab animal or production/food animal medicine.

I am aware that there are some loan forgiveness options, but if I am completing 5+ years of training for a specialty, I would not be eligible during that time for them since the best seem to have requirements on where you work/what field you work in/what location you work at, and the IBR is great, but then you have that tax bomb at the end as well which is concerning.

I know I definitely want to go into health care, and I would not be happy with being a tech/assistant position. I have explored teaching, psychology/counseling based careers, and other fields, but I keep going back to healthcare, particularly DVM or MD/DO (no interest in PA, RN, etc. I know I would regret not going for MD instead due to scope of practice and I have interest in living/volunteering in other countries maybe, where PA is not really recognized)

I like working with children (one-one-one), I like being around animals and people who have animals, I like helping educate people on things, I like making a difference and helping people in some way, relieving/preventing pain and suffering, and I like problem solving,

I can see myself more easily as a veterinarian, and have more vet/animal experience than human healthcare experience, and animal bodily fluids are way less gross than humans (mainly vomit, I can handle animal vomit but want to vomit myself if I am near/can smell human vomit) but I am really just scared by all debt, especially since my top vet schools I would want to attend are Western, & Tufts due to their animal friendly training, and Oregon, Florida, and few others that are more aquatics friendly. Even if I could get into CSU, I am still looking at a 1/4 of a million dollars, which is terrifying given the salary for vets.

Animals in pain does bother me more than humans in pain, I am far calmer with people than animals, but I think that is something that could be overcome with practice.

I am aware that medical school does cost similar to some vet schools, but you are of course making a lot more money (and even for instate, CSU is more than the in-state med school). I'm not sure if it is accurate, but research I've done shows that for vet med interns/residents, they are making average 35K a year, while in comparison, a pediatrics resident makes between 45k-60K depending on the source, with average being 64K for all residents according to another source.

Plus, there is the option to do the loan forgiveness program like vet students can, but for some reason, not have the huge tax bomb Veterinarians Are Treated Horribly Under Student Loan Rules

I feel that I could be happy a human doctor too though. In human medicine, after limited exposure, I would be interested in pediatrics (general or specialist), family medicine, internal medicine, palliative care/hospice, maybe psychiatry, ideally would want to work with undeserved populations. These are far less competitive then gaining an admission to an aquatics residency, from my understanding.

I am sort of jumpy with aggressive/fractious animals, but I think that I would get better with training and more practice. Screaming/yelling people don't bother me much though (I would rather be punched in the face by someone than have a dog bite my face)

I guess I feel that I have two career path options
Option 1) Become a vet, specialize in aquatics or exotics, and have constant financial stress from massive amount of debt that is constantly growing and that I will most likely just die with tons of debt (a student who I spoke to who graduated from Western w/ 500K in debt said that was their plan), and have limited ability to travel, spend money, etc.
Option 2) Become a human doctor, and be able to pay off debt much much sooner & have better loan forgiveness programs as well, have far more financial freedom, have ability to travel, get a house one day if we want, etc. and just donate to animal rescues and visit/volunteer & there & go snorkeling for animal/aquatic fix

If I lived in the dream world where someone gave me a magic ticket to any vet or medical school I wanted, making it entirely free, I would choose Western and be an aquatics vet no doubt. But since we don't live in the dream world, and financial debt is a very real and scary thing, am I making the wrong choice to choose not to pursue vet med anymore solely based on debt?

No one in the pre-vet program I spoke with was worried at all, just said they would figure it out, it would be worth it, etc.

Thank you for any thoughts or advice! I know I have 2 years of school still to figure it out, but with my limited free time due to work, I feel that it would be better to choose between the two sooner rather than later so I can focus on getting more experience in one field only, rather than getting limited amount in both which would not help my application as much as dedicated experience to 1, plus vet schools require some different courses compared to medical school, and one requires MCAT and other GRE, so different tests to prepare for as well.

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[battie]

As a late 20s CO resident that just graduate with OOS debt, I absolutely think debt should be on your mind. I encourage pre vets to consider it to be the most important factor when deciding which school to attend for sure. I would have owed 282k from Illinois at graduation if it wasn't for some life circumstances that changed that fact. My husband and I just started shopping for homes in the Denver Metro Area and the fact I don't have debt as bad as it should have been means we can afford to buy. If I still had the 282k, we would not be buying a house for several years. I also always tell pre-vets that they have to be okay being GP. Having the dreams and aspirations is great; but as you stated, it's highly competitive to go the specialty route in vet med. It's definitely not something you can count on.

Get some human med experience (only skimmed your post as I'm between appointments right now) and if you see yourself truly being content in human med, be an MD/DO. Then do animals on the side.

If you have any questions on being a GP vet in CO right now, shoot me a message.

 

[SnowJ]

Dream in veterinary medicine would be to be an aquatics vet (either working at a marine rescue, an aquarium, or traveling to people's home to care of their marine & freshwater fish like the CA fish vet Dr. Jessie Sanders) or exotics (working at a practice seeing fuzzy "pocket pets", but also would be okay w/ reptiles and birds like Dr. T on DisneyPlus). I think I could be okay with shelter medicine though and working in that environment, or possibly internal medicine and other specialties (GI, derm, diagnostic rad)after speaking more w/ doctors in these specialties. I think I could also be okay with just being a regular primary vet as well seeing dogs and cats mainly, but dream would definitely be aquatics or exotics, and aquatics would be #1.

I realize that aquatics (have looked into marvet & aquavet) and exotics would require 2+ years of internships, and then gaining admission to an uber-competitive 3yr residency.

I just want to point out that being an exotic companion animal (pocket pets, pet birds, reptiles) vet doesn't require internship and residency unless you want to do zoo med or only exotics without any cats/dogs. The main thing you need to add them to a small animal practice is have a mentor who practices with them already to train you and help you network.
That's beside the point though. The debt: income ratio issue is a very very big deal and I think it is absolutely a good reason to chose one career over the other, even if you aren't going to have several years of internship/residency pay. A lot of pre-vets handwave it, but it can have a major impact on your life to have that much debt. The fact that you are considering your options because of it is very responsible of you, and you are definitely not making a mistake if you chose human med over vet med for it.

If you do go for vet med, I highly encourage you to go to your cheapest option even if it doesn't have the aquatics or other more specific things you want. There's always the opportunity to do things like aquavet, go to conferences, do summer research, etc that you can do regardless of where your degree is from that can get your foot in the door for your chosen specialty (and a lot of people do change their minds during school, often several times). The less debt load you can get away with, the more flexibility you will have overall.

 

[finnickthedog]

I'm not in repayment yet due to COVID suspensions, but it's coming up soon and I have a realistic idea of what my payments will be, how much I need to save each month to pay off the tax bomb, what I'm taking home, and what it's like to live on that.

At this point in time the debt does not bother me that much and I feel like this is about what I expected. I also love my job (as much as one can love a job anyways because work is still work at the end of the day).

However, I am very early in my career and a lot of things could change over the few decades. I might start hating my job. I might become injured and unable to work. There are a lot of possibilities that could turn this "doesn't bother me" into something that does bother me because my ability to continue living comfortably relies on me making a veterinarian's salary.

I also didn't feel like I could really afford to do an internship. That was okay for my because my career goals didn't require one but may be a bigger issue for someone who wants to specialize.

It's not a decision to be taken lightly. I went into veterinary medicine because I could not see myself content in any other career. As of right now, that remains true. I was aware of the debt that I was taking on and what repayment should look like.

My debt, for reference, at the end of school with the accrued interest is about 250k. I was not willing to pay much more than that and only applied to my IS school for that reason. 300k+ would have been a no go for me.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

As a late 20s CO resident that just graduate with OOS debt, I absolutely think debt should be on your mind. I encourage pre vets to consider it to be the most important factor when deciding which school to attend for sure. I would have owed 282k from Illinois at graduation if it wasn't for some life circumstances that changed that fact. My husband and I just started shopping for homes in the Denver Metro Area and the fact I don't have debt as bad as it should have been means we can afford to buy. If I still had the 282k, we would not be buying a house for several years. I also always tell pre-vets that they have to be okay being GP. Having the dreams and aspirations is great; but as you stated, it's highly competitive to go the specialty route in vet med. It's definitely not something you can count on.

Get some human med experience (only skimmed your post as I'm between appointments right now) and if you see yourself truly being content in human med, be an MD/DO. Then do animals on the side.

If you have any questions on being a GP vet in CO right now, shoot me a message.

Thank you for taking the time to respond between your appointments! Congratulations on graduating vet school, I think I remember seeing your posts as a pre-vet yourself years ago (I recognize the doggo picture you have, unless that is a generic picture that someone else had)

I think you make an excellent point that I should not even consider vet med unless I would happy being GP since become a specialist is not a guarantee

I am hoping to start some hospital volunteering sometime this semester once things are better with covid, along with in-person shadowing.

Thank you again for your thoughts and sharing your personal experience!

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I just want to point out that being an exotic companion animal (pocket pets, pet birds, reptiles) vet doesn't require internship and residency unless you want to do zoo med or only exotics without any cats/dogs. The main thing you need to add them to a small animal practice is have a mentor who practices with them already to train you and help you network.
That's beside the point though. The debt: income ratio issue is a very very big deal and I think it is absolutely a good reason to chose one career over the other, even if you aren't going to have several years of internship/residency pay. A lot of pre-vets handwave it, but it can have a major impact on your life to have that much debt. The fact that you are considering your options because of it is very responsible of you, and you are definitely not making a mistake if you chose human med over vet med for it.

If you do go for vet med, I highly encourage you to go to your cheapest option even if it doesn't have the aquatics or other more specific things you want. There's always the opportunity to do things like aquavet, go to conferences, do summer research, etc that you can do regardless of where your degree is from that can get your foot in the door for your chosen specialty (and a lot of people do change their minds during school, often several times). The less debt load you can get away with, the more flexibility you will have overall.

Oh, that is good to know, I did not realize that for exotic companion animals an internship and residency is not required if I do exotics with dogs and cats, thank you for that information.

I appreciate your thoughts on the debt to income ratio, a lot of people I have talked with had made me feel very abnormal for worrying about it so much and letting it be such a large influencing factor.

You make a great point that there are always opportunities to do things like aquavet or summer research somewhere else that it makes the most sense to choose the cheapest option rather than the one that sounds the most interesting/fun, etc.

At that point though, while it is only 4 years, it still is 4 years, and 4 years of my partner's life, and the odds of ending up in a more desirable location (to him mainly, but also to me) if I went to medical school seems higher than the odds of being in a desirable location but the cheapest vet school. Just because there are more medical schools than veterinary schools, and even out of state medical schools (overall) seem cheaper if they are state ones and not private. Which makes medical school seem more desirable in some ways.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I'm not in repayment yet due to COVID suspensions, but it's coming up soon and I have a realistic idea of what my payments will be, how much I need to save each month to pay off the tax bomb, what I'm taking home, and what it's like to live on that.

At this point in time the debt does not bother me that much and I feel like this is about what I expected. I also love my job (as much as one can love a job anyways because work is still work at the end of the day).

However, I am very early in my career and a lot of things could change over the few decades. I might start hating my job. I might become injured and unable to work. There are a lot of possibilities that could turn this "doesn't bother me" into something that does bother me because my ability to continue living comfortably relies on me making a veterinarian's salary.

I also didn't feel like I could really afford to do an internship. That was okay for my because my career goals didn't require one but may be a bigger issue for someone who wants to specialize.

It's not a decision to be taken lightly. I went into veterinary medicine because I could not see myself content in any other career. As of right now, that remains true. I was aware of the debt that I was taking on and what repayment should look like.

My debt, for reference, at the end of school with the accrued interest is about 250k. I was not willing to pay much more than that and only applied to my IS school for that reason. 300k+ would have been a no go for me.

The COVID suspension has certainly been nice, my partner owes 10k of student loans still and not having to make that monthly payment has been nice.

I really appreciate you sharing your own story and your thoughts, it has given me a lot to reflect on. You bring up a lot of good points about the what ifs that could happen in the future, and how you made the choice to only apply instate to limit your debt.

 

[DVMDream]

No one in the pre-vet program I spoke with was worried at all, just said they would figure it out, it would be worth it, etc.

Definitely a biased poll to talk with. I too was the rose-colored pre-vet that "would figure it out". Now I am the grumpy 5 year graduated vet with $400+k in student debt working a stressful job with a high rate of mental health distress, realizing I made a naïve decision.

I don't think you are wrong to take the debt seriously, it most definitely should be taken seriously. I think you need to ask yourself if you would be ok with taking on that much debt if you do end up in small animal GP. I certainly hope you can follow your aquatics/exotic passion, but the truth is the vast majority of vets end up working with dogs/cats post graduation. So I think you need to determine if you would be happy taking on that if you did ultimately end up working with dogs/cats.

I see you have some intermittent experiences here and there. I think you need to find some good, in-depth experience in a veterinary clinic (once it is feasible to do so), plus you will need the letters of recommendation. If there is an interest in human medicine, I think you should also seek experiences there as well. Then once you have obtained all the experience, really sit down and write out pros/cons of both careers/debt/life impacts. Ask graduated vets, or even us here, what are things we consider pros/cons once you get to this point and determine for yourself if those things matter to you.

Then, once you have all the information you need and the experiences, decide for yourself if it is worthwhile to take on the debt to become a veterinarian or an MD/DO.

 

[britzen]

At that point though, while it is only 4 years, it still is 4 years, and 4 years of my partner's life, and the odds of ending up in a more desirable location (to him mainly, but also to me) if I went to medical school seems higher than the odds of being in a desirable location but the cheapest vet school. Just because there are more medical schools than veterinary schools, and even out of state medical schools (overall) seem cheaper if they are state ones and not private. Which makes medical school seem more desirable in some ways.

I wouldn't bet on being somewhere you really want to be after med school though. Human med requires internship + residency to practice, and you will have to go through the match. I am no expert on this, but was talking to a med school friend about this recently - he's applying to 30 programs for residency and expects to get about 15 interviews. He'll rank them after interview and then... you have to go where you match. (The penalty of turning down your match site is that you can't reapply for 3 years so that's 3 years that you can't practice medicine). If you don't match you'll have to scramble and try to land whatever spot is still open.. There are a lot of potential match sites for sure, but you can't really guarantee you'll get to live somewhere you really want to. That's 4 more years after med school that you won't have great control about your location.

(The same can be said for vet med matching, btw.)

If you do vet med and go straight into practice, you can choose where you want to move after school.

If you don't have strong preferences about where you live, maybe not an issue. Or maybe it's not a huge issue for the average med student (please ask some doctors - they would have a better idea). But something to consider as the path to human med requires residency while vet med does not.

Also consider the salary of the specialties you listed - I think most of what interests you are in the lower end for human med salaries. High end vet med salaries and low end human med salaries have some overlap depending on specialty, so really dig into what you expect your life long earning potential to be and maybe talk with a financial planner about expected debt vs expected salary in terms of what that would mean for you long term.

I think VIN does free financial counseling - they might be a good place to start.

 

[Melchizedek]

I realize that aquatics (have looked into marvet & aquavet) and exotics would require 2+ years of internships, and then gaining admission to an uber-competitive 3yr residency.

I feel that I could be happy a human doctor too though. In human medicine, after limited exposure, I would be interested in pediatrics (general or specialist), family medicine, internal medicine, palliative care/hospice, maybe psychiatry, ideally would want to work with undeserved populations. These are far less competitive then gaining an admission to an aquatics residency, from my understanding.

Aquatics vet: 4 years of vet school + 2 years minimum internship + 3 years competitive residency = 9 years training minimum (I'm on the human med side so correct me if I'm wrong)

Most of the human med specialties you've listed are 3 years of residency so you'd be making attending salary 2 years earlier than the vet med path.
On top of that, FM and IM are some of the least competitive specialties so it would be path of least resistance.

Palliative is a 1 year fellowship on top of pretty much any residency. Its not a competitive field but the extra year fellowship doesn't do anything to increase your salary ($150k to $200k) from the average internist (IM doc $200k to $250k).

Psych is a 4 year residency after med school and is slowly getting more and more competitive

Purely looking at effort to financial pay off ratio - do med school, it takes literally bare minimum effort to match into FM residency if your only goal is to match and don't care about name-brand institutions. From there the bottom of the barrel salary is $150k which (again, I'm human med and correct me if I'm wrong) is still higher than some of the highest quotes I've seen for an aquatics vet salary.

 

[finnickthedog]

Aquatics vet: 4 years of vet school + 2 years minimum internship + 3 years competitive residency = 9 years training minimum (I'm on the human med side so correct me if I'm wrong)

Well now, even some of us on the vet med side only deal in furry critters and don't really know what's required to be an aquatics vet. Seems like a question for @katashark though.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

Aquatics vet: 4 years of vet school + 2 years minimum internship + 3 years competitive residency = 9 years training minimum (I'm on the human med side so correct me if I'm wrong)

Most of the human med specialties you've listed are 3 years of residency so you'd be making attending salary 2 years earlier than the vet med path.
On top of that, FM and IM are some of the least competitive specialties so it would be path of least resistance.

Palliative is a 1 year fellowship on top of pretty much any residency. Its not a competitive field but the extra year fellowship doesn't do anything to increase your salary ($150k to $200k) from the average internist (IM doc $200k to $250k).

Psych is a 4 year residency after med school and is slowly getting more and more competitive

Purely looking at effort to financial pay off ratio - do med school, it takes literally bare minimum effort to match into FM residency if your only goal is to match and don't care about name-brand institutions. From there the bottom of the barrel salary is $150k which (again, I'm human med and correct me if I'm wrong) is still higher than some of the highest quotes I've seen for an aquatics vet salary.

That seems to be correct to me based off of this How to Be a Fish Veterinarian - Aquatic Veterinary Services
"But what about an aquatic veterinarian? Is there a protocol for that? Well, if you want to be an aquarium veterinarian or work with mammals, there are a few extra steps.

4. Intern for 1 year in small or large animal medicine and surgery (this makes you more competitive for zoo/aquarium internship)

5. Intern for 1 year in an aquarium or zoo. (if you can get accepted, otherwise, it is another year interning elsewhere or doing something to make you more competitive)

6. Receive one of the rare residencies in aquarium/zoo medicine and spend 3 years working. (and if you don't get accepted, than another year trying to do other internships to make you a better applicant)

7. Sit for and PASS the board certification in zoological veterinary medicine.

Again, a very straight forward process, but you MUST stand out among numerous applicants. If not, you’ll miss a step and then be out of luck."

I really appreciate your insight coming from the human medicine side of things. It certainly does seem to make more financial and seems more logical to pursue human medicine instead when you break it down as you did, and it has far more of a guarantee of having a career I want since FM/IM are pretty much a guarantee to some degree, whereas aquatics is a far larger gamble and has little pay off financially (just searching on Indeed and other IAAM job bank, for what would be a "dream job" working at the marine mammal rescue in Southern CA, salary is listed at 65K).

Not too mention, I would be a practicing doctor 2+ years sooner (depending on number of intern years needed)

Certainly makes human medicine seem more and more desirable. Far less of a crap shoot too.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I wouldn't bet on being somewhere you really want to be after med school though. Human med requires internship + residency to practice, and you will have to go through the match. I am no expert on this, but was talking to a med school friend about this recently - he's applying to 30 programs for residency and expects to get about 15 interviews. He'll rank them after interview and then... you have to go where you match. (The penalty of turning down your match site is that you can't reapply for 3 years so that's 3 years that you can't practice medicine). If you don't match you'll have to scramble and try to land whatever spot is still open.. There are a lot of potential match sites for sure, but you can't really guarantee you'll get to live somewhere you really want to. That's 4 more years after med school that you won't have great control about your location.

(The same can be said for vet med matching, btw.)

If you do vet med and go straight into practice, you can choose where you want to move after school.

If you don't have strong preferences about where you live, maybe not an issue. Or maybe it's not a huge issue for the average med student (please ask some doctors - they would have a better idea). But something to consider as the path to human med requires residency while vet med does not.

Also consider the salary of the specialties you listed - I think most of what interests you are in the lower end for human med salaries. High end vet med salaries and low end human med salaries have some overlap depending on specialty, so really dig into what you expect your life long earning potential to be and maybe talk with a financial planner about expected debt vs expected salary in terms of what that would mean for you long term.

I think VIN does free financial counseling - they might be a good place to start.

This is a fair point you bring up, my partner and I have discussed this briefly before (when I was trying to get him to see what each path requires), and since you go where you match, we both would be fine living anywhere for a few years since that is required for training.

For medical school/vet school though, if I have the choice between different locations, there are certainly some places that he would rather live at than others, but he understands that if I apply and get accepted somewhere, if that is my only acceptance, than that is where we are going because turning down an acceptance with a REALLY good reason (and I don't want to live here does not qualify) is essentially putting a huge red flag on you if you reapply again, so that is not an option.

Thank you for the tip about VIN, I did not know that!

 

[Melchizedek]

Not too mention, I would be a practicing doctor 2+ years sooner (depending on number of intern years needed)

You may or may not know this so I'm clarifying in case you don't. Human med doesn't have an "intern year" between school and residency anymore. The intern year IS your first year of residency.
Most people who do a stand alone "intern year" are people who don't match and scramble into a "transitional year" to avoid not practicing for a year or "categorical" programs like optho, anesthesia, rads etc where they need 1 year exposure to gen surg or internal med before they go into their specialized residency.

The numbers I've quoted for the human medicine specialties include the "intern year."

 

[katashark]

Thanks for the tag, @finnickthedog.

For those who don't know me, I'm an aquatics vet, specifically for Pacific salmon (Chinook/King, Coho/Silver, Chum/Dog, Pink/Humpy, Sockeye/Reds, Steelhead, and Kokanee). I work with 90% various salmonid species, 10% wildlife (elk, cougar, bear, fisher, etc).

I went into salmon aquaculture medicine directly from school. I had a ton of extra courses, externship time, and extensive fish vet networking though. For public aquarium medicine (including marine mammal), you will need 1-2 of SA rotating internships, then an aquarium externship, followed by an aquatics residency. Several current aquarium vets also did internships with no residency (since there are very very few true aquatics residencies). For marine mammal stranding, most veterinarians volunteer for the local stranding network. There are a few options like marine mammal center and others that employ vets. There are several options for aquaculture medicine (salmonids, catfish, shrimp, ornamentals, oysters, etc) that do not require extra intensive schooling unless you did not gather enough experience during school. Or you can go from small or large animal into fish with enough training. For private fish vet medicine, there are a few practices, like Dr. Sanders in CA who just contracted a shelter vet to help her out part time, Dr. Emanuele who I think is in North Carolina, a guy in Florida, a Dr. Sweeney I think in New York State. These practices are difficult to start and stay in business, but not impossible. Several vets also just see fish from a small animal/exotics vet office.

As far as debt goes, several of the prominent private practice fish vets are just starting to be able to pay themselves a salary after 6 years in practice and graduated vet school with no student loans. You need to be business savvy and potentially independently wealthy or have a partner willing to help support you. Some of them do make money after a bit though, so there is hope in that for sure. Since I work in public practice, I am eligible for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and since I'm in a shortage area, I am eligible for the USDA Veterinary Medicine Loan Repayment Program. I am occasionaly able to see koi and aquarium fish privately on the side.

You can also look at the American Association of Fish Vets, World Aquatic Vet Med Association, International Association for Aquatic Animal Medicine, and the American Fisheries Society for more information.

 

[Emh_omega-323]

I think you'll have other, better answers now but I can't help but chime in. I'm pre-med myself, but my Dad is a CSU alum DVM (from the 70s, when he paid for most of vet school with his summer job). He now works for a pharmaceutical company, and does some mentoring/mental health support with vet schools. Unfortunately, he's not sunny about the debt/salary ratio now. His attitude is kind of a, if there's something else you can do and be happy, do it, because you could have med-school levels of debt and a very average paying but stressful job for a long time.
If you're interested in the compassion fatigue, dealing with the distressing parts of the job bit, please PM me. My information is secondhand from my dad but he works a lot with that so I might be able to share something useful.

 

[LetItSnow]

I mean, I wouldn't recommend a medical degree of other type right now. I certainly wouldn't recommend a DVM/VMD degree, and based on some pretty extensive conversations over beer with my MD sister ... she literally laughs -- dismissively -- at that thought of doing it over again.

It's not just the debt. It's the gradual erosion of trust in expertise, the increased hostility and entitlement, the unrealistic expectations ... all of it. Things like "pay," "debt," and "work hours" don't help, but those are things you can manage more easily than the public's interaction with either field.

Anyway. I realize this is the sort of thing you read and say "yeah, but it will be different for me" but ... at least I've done my duty.

And there ARE vets and MDs who like their job. So it's possible. But ...... the odds are really stacked.

If you decide to go the vet route, it seems like the best odds of a sustainable, financially-rewarding career are specialization. *shrug*

 

[cubsrule4e]

Clearly, everyone has their own experiences and opinions, so I would carefully consider everyone's who has posted thus far.

Speaking from across the aisle as an MD and 10+ years down the road, I would opt more for the go for your passion route. It sounds like youre extremely into aquatics, and if not that, still some kind of vet med, and human med is kind of this settling situation strictly for monetary/debt purposes. At least thats what I got from your opening post. Im not saying debt should not be a consideration at all, and is very much an important thing to consider - but you have to also consider this is a career. Would you rather be living your passion or close to it and be in debt for 15 years or settle for a different career path in which youll only be in debt half that time, but be burned out and disinterested as soon as youve payed that debt off?

Your post almost sounds like youre trying to talk yourself out of vet med strictly because of the monetary aspect. All of the human med specialties you listed are at the lower end of the income spectrum and still require 3-4 year residencies after med school where youll be making 40-50k a year depending where you are. I dont know all of the vet residency requirements, etc but youre looking at at least that much for a standard human med residency.

So you just have to break it down between the best fit combination of happiness/lifestyle vs income/debt:

Is your dream of aquatics/exotics at a longer training period and higher debt really going to cost you that much more in the long run (financially, time-wise, happiness-wise) than a family practice medicine career that will save you 2 years and 30K of extra debt that youre really not as content with?
If you can only accomplish basic vet med, is the same true for the same scenario?
Would you be actually just as happy with human medicine and animal rescue/volunteering on the side (albeit without the scope of practice you want) in which case saving some training time and a longer period of debt allowing you better quality of life sooner would be significantly worth it?
You also have a partner with steady income and Im inferring that there wont be any kids involved, which allows you to pay off debt much faster than the person who already has or will have children.

Again, Im more the proponent of do what you love vs what will get you out of debt faster.

 

[dyachei]

Clearly, everyone has their own experiences and opinions, so I would carefully consider everyone's who has posted thus far.

Speaking from across the aisle as an MD and 10+ years down the road, I would opt more for the go for your passion route. It sounds like youre extremely into aquatics, and if not that, still some kind of vet med, and human med is kind of this settling situation strictly for monetary/debt purposes. At least thats what I got from your opening post. Im not saying debt should not be a consideration at all, and is very much an important thing to consider - but you have to also consider this is a career. Would you rather be living your passion or close to it and be in debt for 15 years or settle for a different career path in which youll only be in debt half that time, but be burned out and disinterested as soon as youve payed that debt off?

Your post almost sounds like youre trying to talk yourself out of vet med strictly because of the monetary aspect. All of the human med specialties you listed are at the lower end of the income spectrum and still require 3-4 year residencies after med school where youll be making 40-50k a year depending where you are. I dont know all of the vet residency requirements, etc but youre looking at at least that much for a standard human med residency.

So you just have to break it down between the best fit combination of happiness/lifestyle vs income/debt:

Is your dream of aquatics/exotics at a longer training period and higher debt really going to cost you that much more in the long run (financially, time-wise, happiness-wise) than a family practice medicine career that will save you 2 years and 30K of extra debt that youre really not as content with?
If you can only accomplish basic vet med, is the same true for the same scenario?
Would you be actually just as happy with human medicine and animal rescue/volunteering on the side (albeit without the scope of practice you want) in which case saving some training time and a longer period of debt allowing you better quality of life sooner would be significantly worth it?
You also have a partner with steady income and Im inferring that there wont be any kids involved, which allows you to pay off debt much faster than the person who already has or will have children.

Again, Im more the proponent of do what you love vs what will get you out of debt faster.

no offense, but this is spoken like someone who hasn't been in a vet med field.

it's very easy to say you seem like you'll be happier in vet med when you don't understand the burnout and inability to get debt free in that field.

While there are some vets that are very happy with their decisions, that isn't the norm right now. Many more vets are considering career changes, field changes, and the like.

 

[genny]

Im more the proponent of do what you love vs what will get you out of debt faster.

There are daily posts in the NOMV (not one more vet) FB group by new grads who thought being a vet was something they would love, it’s always been their dream, and then they get a year (or less) into practice and reality hits. They’re asking for support because they’re so burnt out and in so much debt. The job is just so different from what everyone thinks it will be.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Clearly, everyone has their own experiences and opinions, so I would carefully consider everyone's who has posted thus far.

Speaking from across the aisle as an MD and 10+ years down the road, I would opt more for the go for your passion route. It sounds like youre extremely into aquatics, and if not that, still some kind of vet med, and human med is kind of this settling situation strictly for monetary/debt purposes. At least thats what I got from your opening post. Im not saying debt should not be a consideration at all, and is very much an important thing to consider - but you have to also consider this is a career. Would you rather be living your passion or close to it and be in debt for 15 years or settle for a different career path in which youll only be in debt half that time, but be burned out and disinterested as soon as youve payed that debt off?

Your post almost sounds like youre trying to talk yourself out of vet med strictly because of the monetary aspect. All of the human med specialties you listed are at the lower end of the income spectrum and still require 3-4 year residencies after med school where youll be making 40-50k a year depending where you are. I dont know all of the vet residency requirements, etc but youre looking at at least that much for a standard human med residency.

So you just have to break it down between the best fit combination of happiness/lifestyle vs income/debt:

Is your dream of aquatics/exotics at a longer training period and higher debt really going to cost you that much more in the long run (financially, time-wise, happiness-wise) than a family practice medicine career that will save you 2 years and 30K of extra debt that youre really not as content with?
If you can only accomplish basic vet med, is the same true for the same scenario?
Would you be actually just as happy with human medicine and animal rescue/volunteering on the side (albeit without the scope of practice you want) in which case saving some training time and a longer period of debt allowing you better quality of life sooner would be significantly worth it?
You also have a partner with steady income and Im inferring that there wont be any kids involved, which allows you to pay off debt much faster than the person who already has or will have children.

Again, Im more the proponent of do what you love vs what will get you out of debt faster.

I appreciate the sentiment of the above....but I do have to present a few counterpoints.

Being in debt for only 15 years is a bit of a rosy outlook for someone who is expecting a quarter of a million dollars of debt and pursuing something as niche and underpaid as aquatic and exotic medicine. Unless they are okay with living like a piss-poor student for an additional 10 more years at least after they finish their training (and I mean vet school AND additional specialization if needed). Which some of us might be, but the older you get....the older IT gets. I say this as someone who completed a 3 year residency after vet school (at about 32k/year) followed by a 5 years fellowship/PhD (at about 40k/year). I didn't start earning a "real" salary (120k/year - so probably still about half to 2/3 of the average of what even the lower-paid MD specialties get) until I was 35. I lived in ****ty apartments surrounded by college students. No way could I have afforded a decent car or house. Forget about vacations. Penny pinching everywhere. Always terrified that a major bill would come up. Trying to hold my head above water with 200k of debt on my back. And all that ON TOP OF the stress of the training and career as whole. Etc. It gets very old living in a perpetual state of financial insecurity - and that contributes to burnout even more so than job type.

You also can't rely on partner's income as a reason for taking on more debt and thinking you can pay it off faster IMO. Partners may lose jobs. Partners may become disabled. Partners may become resentful at having to pay for everything. Partners may break up or divorce. Etc. You can't rely on another person's income as a reason to take on larger debt thinking it will enable you to pay it off faster. It may be something to consider, but it should not be a major player in the decisionmaking.

Do I love what I do? Yes, its awesome. Was it worth it financially? No. I could have been happy doing other things, even if it was "less happy." Because the other parts of my life - and I would argue the more important part in the long-term). would be so much more enjoyable and stable.

I feel like many people have been duped by the idea that your job has to be your "passion". It leads them to sacrifice all of the other important things in life that bring happiness - financial security, good mental health, work-life balance, flourishing relationships with friends and family - all in the same of some sort of pie-in-the-sky "dream career". Your job is not, and should never be, your life. I didn't realize this until my 30s. There are SO many other things in life that are affected by financial status (and the constant stress that accompanies it) that simply cannot be cured by how much you "love your job".

 

[Lawpy]

The MD/DO has a lot of major obstacles on top of the debt issue. I know it sounds cliched but you need a truly genuine interest in human med if you want to go MD/DO route. The increasing corporatization of medicine and administrators/private equity being even more powerful ensure a fast way to burnout and quitting the field if you're going into it for financial reasons. The job markets in two fields (emergency medicine and radiation oncology) have collapsed that's contributing to massive chaos in their residencies. There's also an increasingly devaluation of the profession as hospital systems increasingly rely on midlevel providers and threaten physician job security. It becomes a very complicated mess

The veterinary field has issues of their own that should be considered as well but it's hard to recommend human med as an alternative pathway due to large scale, systemic problems that are only going to get worse

 

[battie]

I feel like many people have been duped by the idea that your job has to be your "passion". It leads them to sacrifice all of the other important things in life that bring happiness - financial security, good mental health, work-life balance, flourishing relationships with friends and family - all in the same of some sort of pie-in-the-sky "dream career". Your job is not, and should never be, your life. I didn't realize this until my 30s. There are SO many other things in life that are affected by financial status (and the constant stress that accompanies it) that simply cannot be cured by how much you "love your job"

As a new grad, I was going to mention this as well. I was that kid that wanted to be a vet since I could walk. But vet med is 40-ish hours of my time per week with a 4 day work week. With how busy things are, I'm writing records at home rather than extending that 40 to 50 in the hospital. My other 3 days a week, my mornings before work, and my time after my records are done have almost no vet med aspects besides social media.

Vet med is my career that I'm going to be passionate about. But I'm going to be passionate about it on the clock. Not while I'm on my couch playing videogames.

So if a pre-vet can be happy doing something else during that 40ish hours a week, then I'd recommend that rather than vet med. Even if they're less passionate about it. Because then they wouldn't have the baggage that is currently ruining vet med.

 

[DVMDream]

So there are definitely some things that the human counterparts here don't understand about vet med.

1. $250k of debt for vet school is kind of a low end from others I have talked to. A lot of us have >300-400k in debt.
2. There is no paying it back in 15 years, just not going to happen. The monthly charge for me to pay it back in 15 years was over $4k per month. My monthly salary was less than the monthly payment. Income based repayment options are the only way to be able to make payments. They don't touch the interest, so the balance on the loans keeps increasing every year despite dumping hundreds of dollars into the loans every month. The income based repayments will be forgiven after 20-25 years, but that forgiven amount ($300-500k for some) is considered income so you are taxed on it. Taxes on $400k are huge.
3. Just like human med has become so corporatized, so has veterinary medicine. Vet med is a giant corporate conglomeration. There are few private practices. Corporatization has created some giant issues in vet med. It is super frustrating trying to get some ***** that makes a few million dollars per year (and has zero knowledge of medicine or animals whatsoever) to understand that their "ideas" on how vet med should run are idiotic and, in some cases, harmful to patients.

 

[LetItSnow]

3. Just like human med has become so corporatized, so has veterinary medicine. Vet med is a giant corporate conglomeration. There are few private practices. Corporatization has created some giant issues in vet med. It is super frustrating trying to get some ***** that makes a few million dollars per year (and has zero knowledge of medicine or animals whatsoever) to understand that their "ideas" on how vet med should run are idiotic and, in some cases, harmful to patients.

This is playing a huge role in it and ties into - in my mind - WTF's comment about pursuing your passion.

*waves to WTF* Hi WTF! Long time, yo!

Corporations in the U.S. are less and less interested in you as a human being. 50 years ago, corporations provided benefits that were significantly better - decent pensions, health insurance that was fully paid for, things like that. When my parents moved from Ohio to MN, dad's company - a very large corporation - co-signed a mortgage. Try and find me a company that provides a pension, covers all your health insurance cost, and would co-sign a mortgage in today's world. Even when I started in the workforce, I didn't pay a cent for health insurance for the first 8 years.

The labor force in the U.S. has gradually been getting the shaft for years and just sitting back and accepting it. Corporations do not view employees as long-term assets to be protected and cared for - they view them purely as resources to use and replace as needed. They give lip service to quality of life, of course, because that's politically correct.

The more vet med shifts to corporate practices, the more that is true.

And so it's a pretty big culture shock to expend all this money and time and emotional effort into pursuing your passion ......... only to land a few years out and realize that the company you're working for doesn't care one bit about your passion. They don't care if you're satisfied. They just care about you filling a spot on a schedule and seeing 20 patients/day and meeting a production target. Oops. Did we say 20? That was last year. Now we want 30. Go team!

Then when you toss in the student debt that is unmanageable for many, the ever-increasing hostility of clients (for clinical jobs), the steady erosion of good supporting staff (our busiest hospital, which has 3 ER doctors on during the day, has 1 ER tech and 1 ICU tech all day this coming weekend..... bet THAT will be fun!) ......

Meh. This field is unsustainable in its current form. I think MDs don't appreciate how little money vets make, so they underestimate the difficulty of this life. For all the incredible difficulties MDs face, the one thing they do have - in comparison - is FAR better compensation. (And MDs generally sincerely feel they are undercompensated as well.)

I understand the 'chase your passion' thing, and I even agree that it's not a bad way to live life. But what I would propose is this:

There are other passions you can have - you just may not know what they are yet. And they may not be your job. Make your job a sustainable way to pursue your real passions.

Anyway. I'll shut up now because I don't want to pee on anyone's dreams. But man.... think REAL REAL hard about whether you really want to be a vet (or an MD, for that matter).

 

[JaynaAli]

For a long time I’ve told people that while I do really enjoy my (specialty, non-client facing) job and being a vet is all I ever wanted to do in my life, I do think I could have found a different career and been just as happy. Maybe it would have been in web development and graphic design or maybe in agriculture. There’s lots I enjoy doing and I think I could probably make a GP equivalent salary without the debt. I have significantly less debt than most which may contribute to my happiness and financial stability as well. I think a lot of pre vets (me included) get tunnel vision and don’t really truly explore other options when we should. I like what I do and I’m grateful to have a job with better than average hours for a vet, better than average pay, and better than average debt. But if I was paying 300-400k and couldn’t guarantee I’d end up in my current specialty, I don’t think I’d do it again.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

You may or may not know this so I'm clarifying in case you don't. Human med doesn't have an "intern year" between school and residency anymore. The intern year IS your first year of residency.
Most people who do a stand alone "intern year" are people who don't match and scramble into a "transitional year" to avoid not practicing for a year or "categorical" programs like optho, anesthesia, rads etc where they need 1 year exposure to gen surg or internal med before they go into their specialized residency.

The numbers I've quoted for the human medicine specialties include the "intern year."

Thank you for this additional information! I should have made myself more clear, I was referring to intern years for becoming a vet, not a human physician.

I appreciate you taking the time to break it down still though of course!

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

Thanks for the tag, @finnickthedog.

For those who don't know me, I'm an aquatics vet, specifically for Pacific salmon (Chinook/King, Coho/Silver, Chum/Dog, Pink/Humpy, Sockeye/Reds, Steelhead, and Kokanee). I work with 90% various salmonid species, 10% wildlife (elk, cougar, bear, fisher, etc).

I went into salmon aquaculture medicine directly from school. I had a ton of extra courses, externship time, and extensive fish vet networking though. For public aquarium medicine (including marine mammal), you will need 1-2 of SA rotating internships, then an aquarium externship, followed by an aquatics residency. Several current aquarium vets also did internships with no residency (since there are very very few true aquatics residencies). For marine mammal stranding, most veterinarians volunteer for the local stranding network. There are a few options like marine mammal center and others that employ vets. There are several options for aquaculture medicine (salmonids, catfish, shrimp, ornamentals, oysters, etc) that do not require extra intensive schooling unless you did not gather enough experience during school. Or you can go from small or large animal into fish with enough training. For private fish vet medicine, there are a few practices, like Dr. Sanders in CA who just contracted a shelter vet to help her out part time, Dr. Emanuele who I think is in North Carolina, a guy in Florida, a Dr. Sweeney I think in New York State. These practices are difficult to start and stay in business, but not impossible. Several vets also just see fish from a small animal/exotics vet office.

As far as debt goes, several of the prominent private practice fish vets are just starting to be able to pay themselves a salary after 6 years in practice and graduated vet school with no student loans. You need to be business savvy and potentially independently wealthy or have a partner willing to help support you. Some of them do make money after a bit though, so there is hope in that for sure. Since I work in public practice, I am eligible for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and since I'm in a shortage area, I am eligible for the USDA Veterinary Medicine Loan Repayment Program. I am occasionaly able to see koi and aquarium fish privately on the side.

You can also look at the American Association of Fish Vets, World Aquatic Vet Med Association, International Association for Aquatic Animal Medicine, and the American Fisheries Society for more information.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, it gave me a lot to think about it! That is great that you are eligible for the PSLF program and the loan repayment program as well. Thank you again for sharing your experience and more about aquatics in general!

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I think you'll have other, better answers now but I can't help but chime in. I'm pre-med myself, but my Dad is a CSU alum DVM (from the 70s, when he paid for most of vet school with his summer job). He now works for a pharmaceutical company, and does some mentoring/mental health support with vet schools. Unfortunately, he's not sunny about the debt/salary ratio now. His attitude is kind of a, if there's something else you can do and be happy, do it, because you could have med-school levels of debt and a very average paying but stressful job for a long time.
If you're interested in the compassion fatigue, dealing with the distressing parts of the job bit, please PM me. My information is secondhand from my dad but he works a lot with that so I might be able to share something useful.

Thank you for chiming in as well, I appreciate all view points! 🙂It seems that seems to be a common trend, that a lot of vets are less "sunny about the debt/salary ratio now" (I really like how you worded that).

Thank you for the offer to PM you for more about compassion fatigue and dealing with distressing parts of the job, I will probably send you a PM later.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I mean, I wouldn't recommend a medical degree of other type right now. I certainly wouldn't recommend a DVM/VMD degree, and based on some pretty extensive conversations over beer with my MD sister ... she literally laughs -- dismissively -- at that thought of doing it over again.

It's not just the debt. It's the gradual erosion of trust in expertise, the increased hostility and entitlement, the unrealistic expectations ... all of it. Things like "pay," "debt," and "work hours" don't help, but those are things you can manage more easily than the public's interaction with either field.

Anyway. I realize this is the sort of thing you read and say "yeah, but it will be different for me" but ... at least I've done my duty.

And there ARE vets and MDs who like their job. So it's possible. But ...... the odds are really stacked.

If you decide to go the vet route, it seems like the best odds of a sustainable, financially-rewarding career are specialization. *shrug*

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and your sister's thoughts we well!

The longer I work at a vet clinic, even just as a receptionist, I see more and more what you listed ( the gradual erosion of trust in expertise, the increased hostility and entitlement, the unrealistic expectations ... all of it).

I know there are a lot of MDs who also are very unhappy with their jobs as well, but it seems like (just based off of talking to some people and chatting on various forums) maybe there are less unhappy people in human medicine (depending on specialty and when the person went to medical school) than in vet med? It is hard to say though for sure of course. Veterinary suicide seems to be a lot more talked about though.

I appreciate you commenting, it has given me more to think about!

 

[dyachei]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and your sister's thoughts we well!

The longer I work at a vet clinic, even just as a receptionist, I see more and more what you listed ( the gradual erosion of trust in expertise, the increased hostility and entitlement, the unrealistic expectations ... all of it).

I know there are a lot of MDs who also are very unhappy with their jobs as well, but it seems like (just based off of talking to some people and chatting on various forums) maybe there are less unhappy people in human medicine (depending on specialty and when the person went to medical school) than in vet med? It is hard to say though for sure of course. Veterinary suicide seems to be a lot more talked about though.

I appreciate you commenting, it has given me more to think about!

MDs/DOs also have a higher rate of suicide than the general public. Especially with COVID-19

I think the erosion of expertise is a bigger problem than expected

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

Clearly, everyone has their own experiences and opinions, so I would carefully consider everyone's who has posted thus far.

Speaking from across the aisle as an MD and 10+ years down the road, I would opt more for the go for your passion route. It sounds like youre extremely into aquatics, and if not that, still some kind of vet med, and human med is kind of this settling situation strictly for monetary/debt purposes. At least thats what I got from your opening post. Im not saying debt should not be a consideration at all, and is very much an important thing to consider - but you have to also consider this is a career. Would you rather be living your passion or close to it and be in debt for 15 years or settle for a different career path in which youll only be in debt half that time, but be burned out and disinterested as soon as youve payed that debt off?

Your post almost sounds like youre trying to talk yourself out of vet med strictly because of the monetary aspect. All of the human med specialties you listed are at the lower end of the income spectrum and still require 3-4 year residencies after med school where youll be making 40-50k a year depending where you are. I dont know all of the vet residency requirements, etc but youre looking at at least that much for a standard human med residency.

So you just have to break it down between the best fit combination of happiness/lifestyle vs income/debt:

Is your dream of aquatics/exotics at a longer training period and higher debt really going to cost you that much more in the long run (financially, time-wise, happiness-wise) than a family practice medicine career that will save you 2 years and 30K of extra debt that youre really not as content with?
If you can only accomplish basic vet med, is the same true for the same scenario?
Would you be actually just as happy with human medicine and animal rescue/volunteering on the side (albeit without the scope of practice you want) in which case saving some training time and a longer period of debt allowing you better quality of life sooner would be significantly worth it?
You also have a partner with steady income and Im inferring that there wont be any kids involved, which allows you to pay off debt much faster than the person who already has or will have children.

Again, Im more the proponent of do what you love vs what will get you out of debt faster.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply!

I do agree that my initial post, and perhaps subsequent posts, do come across very "I am passionate about veterinary medicine but only interested in human medicine due to the debt"

I left out that I have bounced back and forth between the two (human medicine & vet medicine) for awhile, even back in high school I was interested in either being a veterinarian or a pediatrician. Obviously that is when I had little idea of what each truly meant, but I add this to show that it has not always just been animals.

I have spent time imagining myself as a human doctor (and sure, this is an idealistic view, but just to give you more of an idea of where my thoughts have been), particularly either general pediatrics or family medicine, and going through the day diagnosing and helping treat things like ear infections, strep throat, helping manage health conditions, doing physicals and other preventative care, etc. and could see myself (in this idealist vision) being happy doing that as well I feel. I would love to be able to help out at a free clinic and see people that really need medical care but can't afford it too.

I am aware there a lot of different negatives (and some the same) in human medicine as in veterinary medicine, such as fighting with insurance companies, compliance, drug-seeking, getting sued, lots of red-tape, pressure to see more and more patients each day, etc as well though.

The more time I have spent thinking about this over the last week and talking with my partner, I am starting to feel that being around aquatic animals, especially fish, is something that I am passionate about, but that does not mean that I necessarily need it to be a career, and could be happy, possibly even happier, with it being a hobby instead of a career.

I think though that I could "love" (as much as one can love a job) being a human physician too though.

I definitely know that I need to gain a lot more of in-person human medical experience once it is safe to do so, and that is certainly my priority.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

I appreciate the sentiment of the above....but I do have to present a few counterpoints.

Being in debt for only 15 years is a bit of a rosy outlook for someone who is expecting a quarter of a million dollars of debt and pursuing something as niche and underpaid as aquatic and exotic medicine. Unless they are okay with living like a piss-poor student for an additional 10 more years at least after they finish their training (and I mean vet school AND additional specialization if needed). Which some of us might be, but the older you get....the older IT gets. I say this as someone who completed a 3 year residency after vet school (at about 32k/year) followed by a 5 years fellowship/PhD (at about 40k/year). I didn't start earning a "real" salary (120k/year - so probably still about half to 2/3 of the average of what even the lower-paid MD specialties get) until I was 35. I lived in ****ty apartments surrounded by college students. No way could I have afforded a decent car or house. Forget about vacations. Penny pinching everywhere. Always terrified that a major bill would come up. Trying to hold my head above water with 200k of debt on my back. And all that ON TOP OF the stress of the training and career as whole. Etc. It gets very old living in a perpetual state of financial insecurity - and that contributes to burnout even more so than job type.

You also can't rely on partner's income as a reason for taking on more debt and thinking you can pay it off faster IMO. Partners may lose jobs. Partners may become disabled. Partners may become resentful at having to pay for everything. Partners may break up or divorce. Etc. You can't rely on another person's income as a reason to take on larger debt thinking it will enable you to pay it off faster. It may be something to consider, but it should not be a major player in the decisionmaking.

Do I love what I do? Yes, its awesome. Was it worth it financially? No. I could have been happy doing other things, even if it was "less happy." Because the other parts of my life - and I would argue the more important part in the long-term). would be so much more enjoyable and stable.

I feel like many people have been duped by the idea that your job has to be your "passion". It leads them to sacrifice all of the other important things in life that bring happiness - financial security, good mental health, work-life balance, flourishing relationships with friends and family - all in the same of some sort of pie-in-the-sky "dream career". Your job is not, and should never be, your life. I didn't realize this until my 30s. There are SO many other things in life that are affected by financial status (and the constant stress that accompanies it) that simply cannot be cured by how much you "love your job".

You make a lot of really good points. I think you brought up something that I should think about more, that I can't rely on my partner's income, as there is no guarantee.

I feel that you also did an excellent job describing what my future could like (ie with the crappy apartments-lived in a studio for 6 years in a crappy apt in a bad area of town, would rather not do that again, first couple years was similar to have you described, barely could afford groceries, constant fear of a major bill, and growing credit card debt from having unexpected medical and car expenses) and I was strongly considering going to school to become an accountant, getting an associates in book keeping and then becoming a CPA eventually (working at a non-profit), just because I dreamed of financial stability and having a 'better" quality of life.

It really helps put it in perspective.

Your last paragraph really hit home as well. I have had a couple family members tell me I should go for whatever my "dream" career is, but just because you "love your job" does not mean that all the other problems and concerns you listed are solved.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

The MD/DO has a lot of major obstacles on top of the debt issue. I know it sounds cliched but you need a truly genuine interest in human med if you want to go MD/DO route. The increasing corporatization of medicine and administrators/private equity being even more powerful ensure a fast way to burnout and quitting the field if you're going into it for financial reasons. The job markets in two fields (emergency medicine and radiation oncology) have collapsed that's contributing to massive chaos in their residencies. There's also an increasingly devaluation of the profession as hospital systems increasingly rely on midlevel providers and threaten physician job security. It becomes a very complicated mess

The veterinary field has issues of their own that should be considered as well but it's hard to recommend human med as an alternative pathway due to large scale, systemic problems that are only going to get worse

Thank you for adding this, this is also something that I need to take in account and be aware of. I know the medicine and technology was not as good 40 years ago, but it seems like it was a whole lot easier and better to work in healthcare then when there was less corporatization and large scale, worsening systematic problems, if only I was born sooner, lol. I appreciate you taking the time to post!

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

This is playing a huge role in it and ties into - in my mind - WTF's comment about pursuing your passion.

*waves to WTF* Hi WTF! Long time, yo!

Corporations in the U.S. are less and less interested in you as a human being. 50 years ago, corporations provided benefits that were significantly better - decent pensions, health insurance that was fully paid for, things like that. When my parents moved from Ohio to MN, dad's company - a very large corporation - co-signed a mortgage. Try and find me a company that provides a pension, covers all your health insurance cost, and would co-sign a mortgage in today's world. Even when I started in the workforce, I didn't pay a cent for health insurance for the first 8 years.

The labor force in the U.S. has gradually been getting the shaft for years and just sitting back and accepting it. Corporations do not view employees as long-term assets to be protected and cared for - they view them purely as resources to use and replace as needed. They give lip service to quality of life, of course, because that's politically correct.

The more vet med shifts to corporate practices, the more that is true.

And so it's a pretty big culture shock to expend all this money and time and emotional effort into pursuing your passion ......... only to land a few years out and realize that the company you're working for doesn't care one bit about your passion. They don't care if you're satisfied. They just care about you filling a spot on a schedule and seeing 20 patients/day and meeting a production target. Oops. Did we say 20? That was last year. Now we want 30. Go team!

Then when you toss in the student debt that is unmanageable for many, the ever-increasing hostility of clients (for clinical jobs), the steady erosion of good supporting staff (our busiest hospital, which has 3 ER doctors on during the day, has 1 ER tech and 1 ICU tech all day this coming weekend..... bet THAT will be fun!) ......

Meh. This field is unsustainable in its current form. I think MDs don't appreciate how little money vets make, so they underestimate the difficulty of this life. For all the incredible difficulties MDs face, the one thing they do have - in comparison - is FAR better compensation. (And MDs generally sincerely feel they are undercompensated as well.)

I understand the 'chase your passion' thing, and I even agree that it's not a bad way to live life. But what I would propose is this:

There are other passions you can have - you just may not know what they are yet. And they may not be your job. Make your job a sustainable way to pursue your real passions.

Anyway. I'll shut up now because I don't want to pee on anyone's dreams. But man.... think REAL REAL hard about whether you really want to be a vet (or an MD, for that matter).

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

@LetItSnow

I have tried to reply to your post directly but it keeps being weird. Copy and pasted my response below.


I think I would rather have someone pee on my dreams, then encourage me to blindly follow them and then have it all blow up in my face (which, is how I am starting to feel that it would, if I pursued veterinary medicine or at least exotics/aquatics and did not go to the cheapest school with a solid idea of what the debt will be). So I appreciate you posting 🙂

A lot of this weighs on my mind, I have only had experience at a happy, small, private owned practiced that actually care about their employees, their happiness, etc. and I know that where I work is only a very small percentage of the types of vet practices out there, so I am a bit sheltered from the harsh reality of cooperization (not a word).

I also have been reading more posts from other people that were conflicted on veterinary versus human medicine, and I have identified a lot more with various posters reasons to NOT go into veterinary medicine and why they chose human med instead, than others reasons TO go into veterinary medicine (a lot of having to do with.

I think this is a case where I am letting my self be influenced by people saying "but animals are your passion, you should be a veterinarian instead."

The more I think about it (I have been doing a lot of thinking), ignoring the debt and all the awful things about vet med, (from my limited experience) while I LOVE LOVE LOVE being around happy fuzzbutts and purr machines, or seeing happy animals in the wild, and am great with animals and love animal people, will happily spend hours trying to earn the trust of a stray animal, will go out in a rain storm to help an animal, etc. I am far less in love with being around scared animals when I am the one who is the person who has to cause them pain, seeing animal in pain, etc. and just because I love animals and love being around them does not mean that I should be a veterinarian, despite what I feel the universe, and others are telling me.

I have far less of an averse reaction to a person being in pain (more problem solving/scientific mindset while also trying to comfort then OH MY GOSH THIS PUPPY IS SQUEALING MY HEART CAN'T TAKE IT reaction) and I do not think that I should brush that off as something I will get used to, as the more I think about it, the less I think I will.

For a terrified, fractious cat, there is no amount of talking to or trying to distract that will make it better, but even a baby can be comforted in some ways.

(Side not, another reason why I like aquatics, they (fish not mammals) don't make horrific sounds (generally) like dogs and cats when they are scared or in pain, just less emotionally distressing for me, although it means that people are ignorant to their suffering which is sad)

I have also been reading a lot about vets who had clients who refused medical treatments, pain meds, or euthanasia for their pets (due to cost or just not thinking it is needed or wanting to do it), so now those animals are just out there constantly suffering. I have a hard time believing that is something that I would ever not have a horrible time with, that would not constantly weigh me down. Or if I avoided all that by going into shelter medicine, even if I support it and understand the reasoning, constant euthanasias of healthy animals due to space or control of contagious diseases would also be really hard, same with seeing animals who have been abused and neglected with horrific wounds. Wounds on animals just makes me really queasy, not so much with people though for some reason.

So that, plus all the other negatives, makes me far more certain that I should rule out veterinary medicine entirely, but I greatly appreciate all those veterinarians out there who help animals. I just don't think it should be me any more.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

For a long time I’ve told people that while I do really enjoy my (specialty, non-client facing) job and being a vet is all I ever wanted to do in my life, I do think I could have found a different career and been just as happy. Maybe it would have been in web development and graphic design or maybe in agriculture. There’s lots I enjoy doing and I think I could probably make a GP equivalent salary without the debt. I have significantly less debt than most which may contribute to my happiness and financial stability as well. I think a lot of pre vets (me included) get tunnel vision and don’t really truly explore other options when we should. I like what I do and I’m grateful to have a job with better than average hours for a vet, better than average pay, and better than average debt. But if I was paying 300-400k and couldn’t guarantee I’d end up in my current specialty, I don’t think I’d do it again.

I appreciate you sharing! It seems that a lot of people on this thread, or elsewhere, that have posted that they are "happy" with their job are people that 1) have less debt than a lot of others do and 2) are specialists.

At this point in time I have decided to no longer pursue veterinary medicine, for a variety of reasons. I'm certain that there is another career besides vet medicine that I could be happy with, if not even happier potentionally.

 

[purplepotatowinter33]

Well, I have to say, I did not expect to gain so much clarity from this thread!

I really appreciate that you all took the time to read my lengthy post and post such thoughtful and insightful responses.

Even though I grew up enamored by veterinary medicine, reading James Harriot, Animal Ark, and other veterinary series while dreaming of my life as a veterinarian (I used to want to own my own practice, LOL), I am no longer going to pursue veterinary medicine as a career. I will let my passion for animals exist as a hobby, and volunteer to help improve the lives of animals.

I plan to put my focus on now making sure becoming a human doctor is what I want instead, and gaining more human medical experience and be around sick people to make sure I could do that for 30+ years.

Thank you again everyone, I feel a lot more at peace with this decision, and feel that a huge weight has been lifted of me now that I have made a decision.

 

[cubsrule4e]

no offense, but this is spoken like someone who hasn't been in a vet med field.

it's very easy to say you seem like you'll be happier in vet med when you don't understand the burnout and inability to get debt free in that field.

While there are some vets that are very happy with their decisions, that isn't the norm right now. Many more vets are considering career changes, field changes, and the like.

There are daily posts in the NOMV (not one more vet) FB group by new grads who thought being a vet was something they would love, it’s always been their dream, and then they get a year (or less) into practice and reality hits. They’re asking for support because they’re so burnt out and in so much debt. The job is just so different from what everyone thinks it will be.

I appreciate the sentiment of the above....but I do have to present a few counterpoints.

Being in debt for only 15 years is a bit of a rosy outlook for someone who is expecting a quarter of a million dollars of debt and pursuing something as niche and underpaid as aquatic and exotic medicine. Unless they are okay with living like a piss-poor student for an additional 10 more years at least after they finish their training (and I mean vet school AND additional specialization if needed). Which some of us might be, but the older you get....the older IT gets. I say this as someone who completed a 3 year residency after vet school (at about 32k/year) followed by a 5 years fellowship/PhD (at about 40k/year). I didn't start earning a "real" salary (120k/year - so probably still about half to 2/3 of the average of what even the lower-paid MD specialties get) until I was 35. I lived in ****ty apartments surrounded by college students. No way could I have afforded a decent car or house. Forget about vacations. Penny pinching everywhere. Always terrified that a major bill would come up. Trying to hold my head above water with 200k of debt on my back. And all that ON TOP OF the stress of the training and career as whole. Etc. It gets very old living in a perpetual state of financial insecurity - and that contributes to burnout even more so than job type.

You also can't rely on partner's income as a reason for taking on more debt and thinking you can pay it off faster IMO. Partners may lose jobs. Partners may become disabled. Partners may become resentful at having to pay for everything. Partners may break up or divorce. Etc. You can't rely on another person's income as a reason to take on larger debt thinking it will enable you to pay it off faster. It may be something to consider, but it should not be a major player in the decisionmaking.

Do I love what I do? Yes, its awesome. Was it worth it financially? No. I could have been happy doing other things, even if it was "less happy." Because the other parts of my life - and I would argue the more important part in the long-term). would be so much more enjoyable and stable.

I feel like many people have been duped by the idea that your job has to be your "passion". It leads them to sacrifice all of the other important things in life that bring happiness - financial security, good mental health, work-life balance, flourishing relationships with friends and family - all in the same of some sort of pie-in-the-sky "dream career". Your job is not, and should never be, your life. I didn't realize this until my 30s. There are SO many other things in life that are affected by financial status (and the constant stress that accompanies it) that simply cannot be cured by how much you "love your job".

I was just trying to give a non biased non vet perspective from the human med side of things. I definitely dont fully understand the uniqueness of the vet aspect of many of these issues, but other aspects being equal like burnout and potentially really not end up liking what you do, I was just trying to simply address the debt vs passion aspect of things. I didnt realize the debt pyramid was that much more involved than what I experienced. I apologize.

 

[katashark]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this, it gave me a lot to think about it! That is great that you are eligible for the PSLF program and the loan repayment program as well. Thank you again for sharing your experience and more about aquatics in general!

DM me any time. Always happy to talk aquatics with folks. 😀

 

[LetItSnow]

I was just trying to give a non biased non vet perspective from the human med side of things. I definitely dont fully understand the uniqueness of the vet aspect of many of these issues, but other aspects being equal like burnout and potentially really not end up liking what you do, I was just trying to simply address the debt vs passion aspect of things. I didnt realize the debt pyramid was that much more involved than what I experienced. I apologize.

I sure feel like both sides of the equation (MD/DO vs DVM) are in crisis for shared reasons as well as differing reasons. No doubt.

Just remember from a DVM perspective MDs are paid quite well. I realize you guys are undercompensated for what you go through and the value of what you provide ..... just that we're compensated even more poorly, but with similar debt problems.

I make around $265k, which is probably in the top 10% of my colleagues (ER DVMs) just because I happen to be in a very busy private hospital that charges high costs (most ER DVMs are probably $130-180k, I would guess?). What's an ED MD make nowadays in a similarly busy setting? $350-$450k? I realize that feels underpaid for what they do - especially during this godforsaken pandemic of all things - but think about from my perspective how that extra $100k+/yr looks when I think "well, I work the same hours, deal with the same crazy people, and have the same cost of education." It's a little painful. 🙂

Thanks for chiming in from the MD side of things. It's always interesting.

 

[Lawpy]

I sure feel like both sides of the equation (MD/DO vs DVM) are in crisis for shared reasons as well as differing reasons. No doubt.

Just remember from a DVM perspective MDs are paid quite well. I realize you guys are undercompensated for what you go through and the value of what you provide ..... just that we're compensated even more poorly, but with similar debt problems.

I make around $265k, which is probably in the top 10% of my colleagues (ER DVMs) just because I happen to be in a very busy private hospital that charges high costs (most ER DVMs are probably $130-180k, I would guess?). What's an ED MD make nowadays in a similarly busy setting? $350-$450k? I realize that feels underpaid for what they do - especially during this godforsaken pandemic of all things - but think about from my perspective how that extra $100k+/yr looks when I think "well, I work the same hours, deal with the same crazy people, and have the same cost of education." It's a little painful. 🙂

Thanks for chiming in from the MD side of things. It's always interesting.

I'm sadly of the pessimistic mindset that MD compensation will fall especially if single payer/universal healthcare kicks in

I definitely agree MDs and DVMs have a lot of common and shared difficulties, which is why it's hard in good faith to recommend OP to switch over to human med. It's the same sucky feeling, which is why i spend more time in prevet forums because the human med side is... depressing

 

[DVMDream]

End lesson: medicine sucks currently given all the various issues. Doesn't matter if human or veterinary. There's giant, systemic issues with both fields. Neither are for the faint of heart. So really get lots of experience in both before deciding if you want to jump into the dumpster fire with us.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I sure feel like both sides of the equation (MD/DO vs DVM) are in crisis for shared reasons as well as differing reasons. No doubt.

Just remember from a DVM perspective MDs are paid quite well. I realize you guys are undercompensated for what you go through and the value of what you provide ..... just that we're compensated even more poorly, but with similar debt problems.

I make around $265k, which is probably in the top 10% of my colleagues (ER DVMs) just because I happen to be in a very busy private hospital that charges high costs (most ER DVMs are probably $130-180k, I would guess?). What's an ED MD make nowadays in a similarly busy setting? $350-$450k? I realize that feels underpaid for what they do - especially during this godforsaken pandemic of all things - but think about from my perspective how that extra $100k+/yr looks when I think "well, I work the same hours, deal with the same crazy people, and have the same cost of education." It's a little painful. 🙂

Thanks for chiming in from the MD side of things. It's always interesting.

Brb gonna go cry now 😢😀 (just kidding)

Good to see you too LIS. I'm not around much here anymore but I still pop in every now an then.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm sadly of the pessimistic mindset that MD compensation will fall especially if single payer/universal healthcare kicks in

I definitely agree MDs and DVMs have a lot of common and shared difficulties, which is why it's hard in good faith to recommend OP to switch over to human med. It's the same sucky feeling, which is why i spend more time in prevet forums because the human med side is... depressing

I actually teach at both an MD school and AND a vet school - and you're right, both student bodies (and professions) share a lot of the same difficulties.