MSW Should I return for PhD/PsyD after LCSW?

[AnonymousTherapist]

Hi all, I’ve been reading posts on this forum and the masters level forum for quite a while now but haven’t posted, however recently feelings of doubt about my career/educational choices have increased and have caused me to finally create an account. I decided to post here instead of the masters level forum because I’m seeking a psychology perspective.

I graduated with a MSW degree last year and have been working towards full LCSW licensure since. I’m currently working at a state psych hospital but have also worked in outpatient therapy for a bit and a private psych hospital since graduating. My ultimate goal has always been to do therapy, whether in private/group practice or at a clinic or facility. To be honest I have no interest in case management/discharge planning and have found those aspects of my work so far to be miserable and boring.

I don’t want to disrespect any MSWs/LCSWs at all as I am one as well, but I can’t help but feel like the work I do is a waste of a masters degree. I feel like perhaps I made the wrong decision pursuing the LCSW route versus a PhD in psychology. I’ve had colleagues try to reassure me that once I am a fully licensed LCSW I will be happier because there will be better (more clinical) job opportunities available that are not really available to provisional LCSWs. However, I wonder if this is really true or if I will still end up stuck doing case management jobs.

I also wonder if maybe part of my feelings have to do with working in a hospital environment where social workers seem to be the least respected member of the treatment team and are not treated as clinicians, at least in my view. At both hospitals I’ve worked at so far it seems as though we are nothing more than glorified discharge planners even though we are required to conduct psychosocial assessments and do individual and group therapy.

From searching for jobs it also seems that a lot of the more interesting “clinical” or therapy jobs are all contract/part-time gigs that don’t offer any job security...even for fully licensed LCSWs.

And I will admit another part of my concern is money. I worry about the earning potential of a LCSW vs. psychologist. Also I have an interest in psychological testing, which is obviously not something I could really do as an LCSW. This interest has only increased the more I work around psychologists.

I guess I’m just seeking advice on what to do next. I know I need to finish my hours for my LCSW license, because I know it would not look good to any program if I abandoned the license during the provisional phase. Would it be worthwhile at this point to pursue a PhD/PsyD in psychology? Or just continue on the LCSW track? (I also wondered if maybe a PhD in social work would satisfy my desire for more education, and status, to be honest). Note that I do not currently have any research experience for PhD psych programs which I understand is pretty much a requirement. And I know from reading this forum that PsyD programs are ridiculously expensive it seems.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

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[deleted343839]

My advice is to carry on with the LCSW. You haven't shared any strongly compelling reasons to pursue a PhD in psychology, and you are not in a position to be a competitive applicant for doctoral programs.

If you have any illusions about plum jobs landing in your lap simply because you have a PhD, or getting automatic respect from colleagues in other disciplines because you are a psychologist, let me assure you this is not the case. In many settings a PhD will in fact rule you out of many "psychotherapist" positions that are intended for clinicians with a master's degree. If your main goal is to provide psychotherapy, the LCSW path is a reasonable choice. It's just a tough market and it can take time to find a position and setting that is right for you.

 

[AlejoPsych303]

I think you're grappling with questions that many of us had when we started on this extensive journey. But, I would echo what Mama has already said. If you're looking for prestige (the title) or an enormous bump in salary, the clinical/therapy field is definitely not an area to reap many benefits from being a PhD/PsyD. Additionally, the job market is rough, at least in CO, where psychologists are scrambling for decent paying jobs that are moderately higher than a master's position.

On the other hand, this was all explained to me before I entered my PsyD program and I still pursued and completed it. I love what I do, and I agree that being able to offer a more comprehensive assessment and therapy service is fulfilling. I am not as concerned about my huge loans (as maybe I should be) because the NLRP, military, and Colorado offer loan repayment programs.

I would recommend finding an area or specialty that you're passionate about, and consider if obtaining a higher degree will make you more competitive and competent.

 

[AnonymousTherapist]

Thank you both for your replies. So if clinical work would not be profitable enough alone to justify the switch from LCSW to PsyD/PhD, what types of positions for PsyD/PhD would make it worth the jump?

Also, how do you all feel about the prescription rights movement for psychologists? Do you think in the relatively near future that more and more states will begin to allow psychologists to prescribe? That was also another factor I had considered when debating all of this.

 

[psych.meout]

Thank you both for your replies. So if clinical work would not be profitable enough alone to justify the switch from LCSW to PsyD/PhD, what types of positions for PsyD/PhD would make it worth the jump?

Also, how do you all feel about the prescription rights movement for psychologists? Do you think in the relatively near future that more and more states will begin to allow psychologists to prescribe? That was also another factor I had considered when debating all of this.

You might as well just go to med school and specialize in psychiatry then. It would be easier to get into and more of a sure thing in regards to prescribing psychotropic medications and earning more money than getting a PhD.

 

[wtfook]

Hi all, I’ve been reading posts on this forum and the masters level forum for quite a while now but haven’t posted, however recently feelings of doubt about my career/educational choices have increased and have caused me to finally create an account. I decided to post here instead of the masters level forum because I’m seeking a psychology perspective.

I graduated with a MSW degree last year and have been working towards full LCSW licensure since. I’m currently working at a state psych hospital but have also worked in outpatient therapy for a bit and a private psych hospital since graduating. My ultimate goal has always been to do therapy, whether in private/group practice or at a clinic or facility. To be honest I have no interest in case management/discharge planning and have found those aspects of my work so far to be miserable and boring.

I don’t want to disrespect any MSWs/LCSWs at all as I am one as well, but I can’t help but feel like the work I do is a waste of a masters degree. I feel like perhaps I made the wrong decision pursuing the LCSW route versus a PhD in psychology. I’ve had colleagues try to reassure me that once I am a fully licensed LCSW I will be happier because there will be better (more clinical) job opportunities available that are not really available to provisional LCSWs. However, I wonder if this is really true or if I will still end up stuck doing case management jobs.

I also wonder if maybe part of my feelings have to do with working in a hospital environment where social workers seem to be the least respected member of the treatment team and are not treated as clinicians, at least in my view. At both hospitals I’ve worked at so far it seems as though we are nothing more than glorified discharge planners even though we are required to conduct psychosocial assessments and do individual and group therapy.

From searching for jobs it also seems that a lot of the more interesting “clinical” or therapy jobs are all contract/part-time gigs that don’t offer any job security...even for fully licensed LCSWs.

And I will admit another part of my concern is money. I worry about the earning potential of a LCSW vs. psychologist. Also I have an interest in psychological testing, which is obviously not something I could really do as an LCSW. This interest has only increased the more I work around psychologists.

I guess I’m just seeking advice on what to do next. I know I need to finish my hours for my LCSW license, because I know it would not look good to any program if I abandoned the license during the provisional phase. Would it be worthwhile at this point to pursue a PhD/PsyD in psychology? Or just continue on the LCSW track? (I also wondered if maybe a PhD in social work would satisfy my desire for more education, and status, to be honest). Note that I do not currently have any research experience for PhD psych programs which I understand is pretty much a requirement. And I know from reading this forum that PsyD programs are ridiculously expensive it seems.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

The licensure years are tough and purely clinical therapy jobs are mostly fee for service/part time. If you have any interest in drug and alcohol or addictions counseling, those places generally offer more full time jobs because the turnover rate is so much higher. If you can stick it out for the 2 years needed to get all your hours, the doors REALLY open up when it comes to rewarding careers in full time therapy. You are also more competitive for private practice positions. I have friends who did fee-for-service for a couple of years (it was tough as hell) but are not about to finish their licensure requirements and have pretty great jobs lined up as full-time therapists. If you're unhappy in the hospital setting and want to do more therapy, I would recommend branching out and doing at least some fee-for-service work, even just to get your hours done faster. Hospital settings just aren't where individual therapy happens. Outpatient, community mental health, recovery centers, D&A, and those other sites are where you may get that experience and make yourself most competitive for clinical jobs post licensure.

Unless you have a strong interest in research (all PhD/PsyD programs must do a dissertation) and/or admin jobs post doctorate, you won't really enjoy the work that comes with a doctorate anyway. You want to be a full time therapist and you can do that with an LCSW. Pay increases AND the opportunities are the same. People with doctorates typically make more because they take on clinical director, administrative leadership, and/or research roles within health institutions and academia. Since you've stated you dislike that managerial type work and prefer to do most of your work as a therapist, it seems like a long 5 years to just do a thing you could be doing once you finish your hours within the next year or two.

 

[deleted1129217]

The licensure years are tough and purely clinical therapy jobs are mostly fee for service/part time. If you have any interest in drug and alcohol or addictions counseling, those places generally offer more full time jobs because the turnover rate is so much higher. If you can stick it out for the 2 years needed to get all your hours, the doors REALLY open up when it comes to rewarding careers in full time therapy. You are also more competitive for private practice positions. I have friends who did fee-for-service for a couple of years (it was tough as hell) but are not about to finish their licensure requirements and have pretty great jobs lined up as full-time therapists. If you're unhappy in the hospital setting and want to do more therapy, I would recommend branching out and doing at least some fee-for-service work, even just to get your hours done faster. Hospital settings just aren't where individual therapy happens. Outpatient, community mental health, recovery centers, D&A, and those other sites are where you may get that experience and make yourself most competitive for clinical jobs post licensure.

Unless you have a strong interest in research (all PhD/PsyD programs must do a dissertation) and/or admin jobs post doctorate, you won't really enjoy the work that comes with a doctorate anyway. You want to be a full time therapist and you can do that with an LCSW. Pay increases AND the opportunities are the same. People with doctorates typically make more because they take on clinical director, administrative leadership, and/or research roles within health institutions and academia. Since you've stated you dislike that managerial type work and prefer to do most of your work as a therapist, it seems like a long 5 years to just do a thing you could be doing once you finish your hours within the next year or two.

I can't echo this message enough. Fellow MSW here, I had a hard time sticking it out with the horrible pre-license jobs and decided to start my PsyD. I got licensed along the way in May '21. Long story short: a very expensive mistake. I am now dropping out of the PsyD program to return to the field as an LCSW. Jobs titles for LCSW's almost always include "or PsyD or PhD in clinical psychology". Don't waste your time and money. Use your LCSW degree, it's just as valuable as a PsyD -- clinically. Hope this helps someone!