Should I try again?

[Credson]

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I was a medical student for two years before I was dismissed. I struggled academically in the first year and had to repeat a course. After that a committee from the school met with me, and I told them I had Asperger's syndrome. They told me I had to get treatment for it and sent me to a psychiatrist. He first put me on SSRIs and later send me to a therapist. I complained to the school and the psychiatrist that I didn't think this was necessary. during the summer, I got a letter telling me I was dismissed that didn't cite a reason. Later the school's lawyer told me that I was dismissed for resisting required treatment, and that without treatment I stood no chance of becoming a doctor. The lawyer insisted it was not for Asperger's syndrome (which wasn't what the school officials told me, but they never wrote anything down so I couldn't prove it) and wouldn't state what the treatment was supposed to be for. I threatened a lawsuit and they offered a settlement. I took the settlement, though it wasn't for much. At the time I thought my debt would be forgiven, which it hasn't so far, but that issue is still being worked out.

They told me that if I applied somewhere else, my dismissal would not be mentioned. I'm wondering if I'm required to disclose the dismissal if I apply elsewhere. I don't see how else to explain my time at the school. I still want to become a doctor, but I really don't want to leave the country for medical school. I'm wondering if I even have a chance at this point. At the moment, I'm working part time as a math and science tutor. I had an EMT license, but it's long since expired. I'd have to take the MCAT again, but I did well the first time (13P 11B 8V) and I think my test-taking skills have improved since then. I have no idea how to explain what happened to me to another school.

 

[gyngyn]

You are obliged to report the previous matriculation. The AMCAS primary application will give you the opportunity to give an explanation for your dismissal.

 

[Goro]

My take is that you had your chance and it didn't work. My school might very well grant you an II, but our AdCom takes a very dim view of rejects from other medical schools. To my knowledge, we've never accepted someone who failed out of medical school.


Suggest that you move on and don't look back. See this week's Time magazine and the cover article by the reknowned Temple Grandin. Perhaps veterinary school might be more suited to you and your abilites.

I was a medical student for two years before I was dismissed. I struggled academically in the first year and had to repeat a course. After that a committee from the school met with me, and I told them I had Asperger's syndrome. They told me I had to get treatment for it and sent me to a psychiatrist. He first put me on SSRIs and later send me to a therapist. I complained to the school and the psychiatrist that I didn't think this was necessary. during the summer, I got a letter telling me I was dismissed that didn't cite a reason. Later the school's lawyer told me that I was dismissed for resisting required treatment, and that without treatment I stood no chance of becoming a doctor. The lawyer insisted it was not for Asperger's syndrome (which wasn't what the school officials told me, but they never wrote anything down so I couldn't prove it) and wouldn't state what the treatment was supposed to be for. I threatened a lawsuit and they offered a settlement. I took the settlement, though it wasn't for much. At the time I thought my debt would be forgiven, which it hasn't so far, but that issue is still being worked out.

They told me that if I applied somewhere else, my dismissal would not be mentioned. I'm wondering if I'm required to disclose the dismissal if I apply elsewhere. I don't see how else to explain my time at the school. I still want to become a doctor, but I really don't want to leave the country for medical school. I'm wondering if I even have a chance at this point. At the moment, I'm working part time as a math and science tutor. I had an EMT license, but it's long since expired. I'd have to take the MCAT again, but I did well the first time (13P 11B 8V) and I think my test-taking skills have improved since then. I have no idea how to explain what happened to me to another school.

 

[Credson]

I didn't fail out. I had passed all of my courses and was actually dismissed in the middle of summer. I know we're all entitled to our opinions, but why do people automatically assume that someone with Asperger's can't be a doctor? If anything I think it helps. In my view, this is why we need to teach tolerance.

By the way, I went to two psychiatrists and a psychologist after my dismissal. They all agreed that the school was wrong and there was no reason I couldn't be a doctor. They wrote letters to this effect, but the school wouldn't reverse their decision.

 

[Goro]

It's that part of the Board exam where you have to do all the humanistic stuff that doctors do. I fear that your condition will prevent you from pasing.

That said, you were dismised from a medical school.. We want no part of that. I agree that somebody has to do radiology or pathology, but you still have to make that patient contact stuff happen in your clinical coursework.

Did you take legal action against your school? Appeal your dismissal to Porvost, Chancellor?

I didn't fail out. I had passed all of my courses and was actually dismissed in the middle of summer. I know we're all entitled to our opinions, but why do people automatically assume that someone with Asperger's can't be a doctor? If anything I think it helps. In my view, this is why we need to teach tolerance.

By the way, I went to two psychiatrists and a psychologist after my dismissal. They all agreed that the school was wrong and there was no reason I couldn't be a doctor. They wrote letters to this effect, but the school wouldn't reverse their decision.

 

[Credson]

It's funny that you would say radiology and pathology, since I was actually more interested in either internal medicine or primary care. I think this is the kind of prejudice that kept me from getting a fair shot. It's assumed that I can't be allowed around people for some reason. In my opinion, there are a lot of NT(neurotypical) students and doctors that don't have the kind of empathy and compassion that the job requires. They may even be the majority. Part of what makes me unwilling to give up is that I know I could do better than them, at least at this aspect. I'm more caring than the average person. My general feeling is that NT's often lack empathy for people with autism because they don't make the correct facial expressions, so the NT's assume (incorrectly) that the autistic have no empathy.

I did appeal the decision and attempt legal action. The lawyer told me that as a private school they had "wide discretion" to basically kick out anyone they want. They made a settlement with me but wouldn't admit wrong doing.

Thanks for offering your thoughts. You were honest, and at least now I know the kind of reaction I'm going to be facing from some people.

 

[DrMidlife]

The problem here isn't Aspergers.

The problem is that there is an authority between you and what you want. It makes no difference at all what you think should be important to that authority. You don't get to vote on how that authority makes choices.

Your job, as a med student, is to jump through hoops. You don't get to argue with the hoops. You don't get a say in how high the hoops are. Your job is to jump like a Jack Russell terrier.

The problem here is not that you didn't want to do an SSRI or that you didn't want to see a therapist.

The question here is whether you kept seeing the psychiatrist as instructed by your school, after you declined the SSRI and the therapist, to negotiate other options. If you did not have permission from your school to stop seeing that psychiatrist, then you did not do what your school required of you. If you wanted the requirements to be changed, such as to see another provider, you would have needed to negotiate that change with the school.

I expect the problem is that you did not do what your school required, and the other huge big fat problem is that you called a lawyer. What med school is going to support a student like this? (If you wanted to stay in med school, why did you take the settlement? Why didn't you have your lawyer fight for you to be readmitted?)

That med school is responsible for certifying that its graduates are safe to practice. The school is responsible for not certifying students for whom the school cannot vouch. Part of what the school needs to vouch for is your ability to meet requirements that seem arbitrary or inefficient or just stupid. Because those are the kind of requirements you have to meet all day every day for the rest of your life as a doctor.

There's no way you were dismissed for having Asberger's. It doesn't matter that the school settled to avoid your "they dismissed me for having Asbergers" lawsuit. I think you left out the months of communication from your school about how you didn't meet their requirements and what the consequences would be. That's what a med school does before they send a dismissal letter, in order to avoid lawsuits. The med school lawyers looked at the school's pile of communication with you, looked at the definition of Asbergers, and decided that a jury would rule against the school. Done. Totally unrelated to the true story.

It doesn't sound like your school did a great job in dealing with you after your failed class, regardless. You can assume that your med school had many many followup meetings to change its policies and retrain its administration after your dismissal, so that nothing similar would ever happen again. They probably put some time in on adding screening during the admissions interview.

Meanwhile, the school can't forgive federal student loans. Those are between you and the federal government. Another authority with whom you don't get to argue.

Also, your opinion on how good you are with people makes no difference. What matters is your consistent, reliable performance of good people skills at all times in all situations. This may have nothing to do with what happened to you, or it may be the whole entire reason it happened.

I can't imagine an explanation for this story that would get you back into med school. I hope you have other passions to pursue.

Best of luck to you.

 

[solitarius]

I was a medical student for two years before I was dismissed. I struggled academically in the first year and had to repeat a course. After that a committee from the school met with me, and I told them I had Asperger's syndrome. They told me I had to get treatment for it and sent me to a psychiatrist. He first put me on SSRIs and later send me to a therapist. I complained to the school and the psychiatrist that I didn't think this was necessary. during the summer, I got a letter telling me I was dismissed that didn't cite a reason. Later the school's lawyer told me that I was dismissed for resisting required treatment, and that without treatment I stood no chance of becoming a doctor. The lawyer insisted it was not for Asperger's syndrome (which wasn't what the school officials told me, but they never wrote anything down so I couldn't prove it) and wouldn't state what the treatment was supposed to be for. I threatened a lawsuit and they offered a settlement. I took the settlement, though it wasn't for much. At the time I thought my debt would be forgiven, which it hasn't so far, but that issue is still being worked out.

The school did you a favor. If you did become a physician, would you rebel against the hospital administration, state regulators, and Medicare if you didn't agree with their policies?

I just have to say that as a society, America just seems to tolerate more bad behavior these days. I see it everyday from everyone, and it's just tiresome to deal with. It's even more disappointing that this bad behavior makes for good entertainment in the news and media. I'm glad medical school is willing to take a stand on this, to be honest.

 

[Credson]

DrMidlife, you're right in that this did go on for a long time, about a year, before they dismissed me. They sent me to a psychiatrist and eventually two different therapists, and I did go every single time they asked. The Dean told me I was dismissed for "resisting" the therapy, basically because I asked for it to end after it became clear that it wasn't helping. Interestingly, the therapist told me that the Dean's secretary called her every two weeks with fresh complaints that I was "breaking the rules." I had no idea what she was talking about, so I asked the Dean and she told me that no such phone call ever happened. She refused to meet with me again after that, except once when I was dismissed.

I think there's a major flaw in your reasoning. When they arranged treatment for me, it wasn't as a student but as a patient. A patient has the right to refuse treatment and the right to get a second opinion, both of which were denied to me ( they were very firm that I couldn't see anyone other than their psychiatrist, it would violate their "procedure"). They determined that something was wrong with me based on their prejudice, not a legitimate medical opinion. Remember, three different professionals have said that I'm essentially normal, meaning I have no deficit that would prevent me from being a doctor. Essentially, they found a way to get away with medical battery. What I did is very different from a doctor not complying with hospital policy, which could mean that he's breaking the law. In this case, they violated my human rights.

Oh, and I didn't talk to a lawyer until after I was dismissed. I honestly wish I had talked to one earlier, there's a good chance it could have saved my career. Even if they were forced to readmit me, it wouldn't be hard for them to come up with new grounds to dismiss me again. Before the dismissal, the Dean told me that if my psychiatrist wrote a letter saying I didn't need the therapy, they would have to accept his opinion and leave me alone after that. Well, he wrote that letter, and they actually accused me of manipulating his opinion. This led to my immediate dismissal. Their lawyer cited my supposed manipulation of him as a discipline problem. Up until that time, I had been told by the Dean that I was required to do exactly what the psychiatrist told me to. Just before I was dismissed, the Dean retired and was replaced by a temporary Dean. She told me, after my dismissal, that I was actually supposed to be in therapy regardless of what the psychiatrist said. So there was a lot of inconsistency and confusion. That's the part of the story I left out.

To Solitarus, I want you to imagine something. Suppose a psychiatrist misdiagnosed you as a danger to yourself and others and had you committed. If you complained and tried to get released, would this be evidence of your bad behavoir? If you were forced to take psycho-active drugs that you didn't need, would you "rebel" against this or just blindly accept it?

Honestly, I hope you're both wrong and that the behavior of the school is not considered acceptable by the medical community at large. If it is, I fear for the children I hope to have some day, because they may be autistic as well, like my mother. By the way, she's an award-winning teacher, so she's very good at working with people.

One other thing I want to clarify. When I say I "threatened" a lawsuit, they were actually the ones to bring it up first. The Dean told me that I could sue them, but every student who they've ever been forced to readmit was subsequently dismissed. I didn't want to risk putting my wife through that. She was scared for me to even meet with them again.

 

[solitarius]

Credson, let me first say that I'm sorry for your predicament. None of us observed what happened, and we can only rely on what you tell us and our own experiences.

From my experience, I've witnessed the harsher aspects of the health care environment. Everyone is expected to fall in line or else. That's just what I've seen.

From your updated description, I get the sense that the dean was treading very cautiously. Therefore, I would sense that there was deep concern and mistrust between you and your school. I'm sorry it came to this for you. When tough times come, you just got to do a mea culpa to re-establish trust. That has to take precedence over fairness.

Again, I'm very sorry for what has happened.

 

[Credson]

I tried talking to them, but for a period of about six months before I was kicked out they refused to meet with me. I honestly believed if I just talked to them I could work out whatever the problem was. This was during the period that the therapist told they were calling her every two weeks with vague complaints that I was "breaking the rules." At one point she told me that they didn't like me asking to see them and advised me to stop.

I tried everything I could think of to end the problem. I've never been good at navigating political situations, so that may be why I had so much trouble. I generally try to speak the factual truth regardless of who I'm talking to. Honestly, I don't come from a family with doctors and I didn't know anything about the culture of medical school or medicine when I started. I wish I had known more about it in advance.

Thank you for saying you're sorry for what happened.

 

[Aminex]

Pretty grim stuff on the compulsory psych. side. If indeed Asperger's was an accurate diagnosis, it's not like an SSRI is going to do much for it. It's also troubling to think how much power a "psychiatrist's letter" can wield in situations that can have dramatic consequences for a person's life and future.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

Shouldn't have settled unless you got a more favorable settlement than it appears you got. Sounds like you got played by the big boys. If you really did get tossed around by the school, as it seems you did, the lack of empathy on this thread from the peeps in med school who say empathy is everything and medicine is only about jumping through hoops is laughable. I mean you did jump through the hoops of undergrad and med school admission, so it's not like you are totally incompetent in any way, and you earned your shot at being a physician. If it was fair, it seems that they would have let you fail out (which it seems that you nearly did) by not passing classes/boards or failing in clinical rotations, not because of a medical diagnosis (to which it doesn't seem the school should have the rights to know anyways). Something about this story seems off, I still feel like we're missing a huge part of it.

More than anything I'm curious, what's the school??? (I'm sure you wont say, which is fine by me, but I still want to know 🙄)

 

[longislander]

Scrolling up and down and back and forth I think Credson's college is "college formerly known as NYCOM."

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I agree with the others who are recommending that you move on, and here's why.

One of my jobs between grad school and med school was managing an office. Part of my job was to deal with "difficult" employees. There was one lady in particular who had an attitude problem and was a real you-know-what disturber. My bosses wanted her gone, but they didn't want to fire her without cause, because then we'd have to pay her unemployment. So I spent the next several months building up a file of infractions so that we could fire her for cause and not have to pay the unemployment. And that's exactly how it went down. None of the examples of insubordination in and of itself was all that bad, but I was able to build a case that there was a pattern of insubordination. We fired her, and the state refused to grant her any unemployment.

Unfortunately for you (and for anyone who struggles with reading social signals), medical training and culture is not forgiving of those who end up on the wrong side of the powers that be. Corporate culture in general is not forgiving of this. You apparently made the administration uncomfortable for whatever reason, and they wanted you gone. The decision may have already been made before you even started therapy. Just like what I had to do to get rid of that problem employee, they did what they had to do to get rid of you. If this is the case, I don't think you are likely to be successful at getting your medical career back on track.

And the school may have accidentally done you a favor, because third year med school and residency training evaluations are almost entirely subjective. You have relatively limited recourse once you have gotten that rep of being unprofessional. Go read the Gen Res forum threads about residents getting kicked out of residency for professionalism issues, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Ravendown]

The school did you a favor. If you did become a physician, would you rebel against the hospital administration, state regulators, and Medicare if you didn't agree with their policies?

I just have to say that as a society, America just seems to tolerate more bad behavior these days. I see it everyday from everyone, and it's just tiresome to deal with. It's even more disappointing that this bad behavior makes for good entertainment in the news and media. I'm glad medical school is willing to take a stand on this, to be honest.

America also seems to tolerate terrible doctors and not really doing anything about it. Seriously; have you been to public hospital [not all departments]; many departments, violate so many safety regulations. It's mind boggling.

 

[dragonfly99]

there are a lot of other cool things you can do besides being a doctor.
I wouldn't pursue this any more. I think it will be extremely difficult to get into any med school after being dismissed under those circumstances. None of us here are in a position to judge you as to whether this was just or unjust, but I can tell you that residency program directors and faculty and hospital administrators can be equally or more hard to deal with. Also, some patients can be downright unreasonable with regard to their expectations of you...and yes, they may judge you on things like your facial expressions, which as you pointed out may not go along with how you "feel" or the social signals you are actually trying to send out.

If you only have 1 year of med school debt, and you have some sort of legal settlement money, then hopefully you are not in too much of a financial hole. Also, if you are already married, then you have other obligations. If you have or want to have kids, then you have to pay to raise them somehow and going through another 7+ years of med school and residency at this point with already one episode of "being kicked out" would be extremely hard. Everyone has more than one thing we are good at (or at least almost everyone). I'm sure you are good at many things if you could get into med school. Sometimes it is easy to focus on one and only one goal, but that might not be best at this point. There must have been some other thing(s) you wanted to do at some point before medicine. Don't get me wrong, I really like being a doctor most of the time, but there are parks that suck (the massive amounts of paperwork/computerwork, documentation required, being the main one, but dealing with difficult people is the 2nd worst part and a lot of that has to do with hospital administration, insurance companies, etc.).

 

[Credson]

Dragonfly99,

I think this is why Autistic people need to do a better job educating about tolerance. If a patient has a problem with me through no fault of my own, that's their issue. Would you say that a black doctor coudln't practice because some patients are racist, or that a woman couldn't be a doctor because some patients would be uncomfortable with that? Keep in mind I always set very high standards of professionalism for myself. In my opinion and my opinion only, more people like me need to become doctors.

 

[IlDestriero]

Sounds like you shouldn't have settled for less than 6m in lost income and 1m emotional distress.