Should one who wants to be a radiation oncologist take advanced physics courses?

[randombetch]

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I was wondering where radiation oncologists get their physics studies done outside of undergrad. It seems that they study medicine in dept in med school, but there's probably not all that much physics involved (in the level of detail radiation oncologists would need). Do they have to study physics during their residency then? Or is a deep, rigorous understanding of physics less important for rad oncs than I imagine?

If someone wants to be a radiation oncologist, should he or she be taking advanced physics courses during undergrad (such as quantum mechanics, advanced electricity and magnetism, etc.)?

Another question that's completely unrelated: can someone help me out with the abbreviations for what year you are during the medical school/residency/attending progression? Okay, so PGY-1 to PGY-8 means that's your "post-graduate year" after you finished med school. I think some attendings refer to themselves as CA-1 for their first year as an attending? What does CA mean? And does "MS-1" mean you're a first year med student?

Thanks.

 

[plauto]

The vast majority of med students do not know what specialty they'll go into.
80% or more of those who say they know will change their mind on the way.
So I'd guess that it does not really matter. I would think that the only thing that might give you an edge for a residency application in rad is if you have a PhD in Biomedical Eng. or physics perhaps. There are so many more important factors though that it doesn't matter. Rad Onc is a fellowship anyway so it's extremely removed from undergrad.

 

[BlueElmo]

Yeah, MS1 or M1 means you're first year medical student. And PGY1 means you're in first year of post-graduate medical training, and so on and so forth.

 

[afugazzi]

I'm confused, I thought it was a residency 😕
http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/specialties.htm

Based on what I've heard, rad onc is very competitive and having a PhD in physics or something similar helps...but it's not necessary. Having majored in physics may also help, but I would guess it's much less important than having massive amounts of publications.

The vast majority of med students do not know what specialty they'll go into.
80% or more of those who say they know will change their mind on the way.
So I'd guess that it does not really matter. I would think that the only thing that might give you an edge for a residency application in rad is if you have a PhD in Biomedical Eng. or physics perhaps. There are so many more important factors though that it doesn't matter. Rad Onc is a fellowship anyway so it's extremely removed from undergrad.

 

[circulus vitios]

Taking quantum mechanics will in no way, shape, or form help you understand the tools used by radiation oncologists.

 

[Narmerguy]

If someone wants to be a radiation oncologist, should he or she be taking advanced physics courses during undergrad (such as quantum mechanics, advanced electricity and magnetism, etc.)?

Not really. It was my understanding that you will be taught the physics you need to know as it comes.

 

[randombetch]

Taking quantum mechanics will in no way, shape, or form help you understand the tools used by radiation oncologists.

Not even for research purposes? It won't help you understand any part of any piece of literature published in the field of radiation oncology or dealing with any form of treatment given by radiation oncologists?

 

[circulus vitios]

Not even for research purposes? It won't help you understand any part of any piece of literature published in the field of radiation oncology or dealing with any form of treatment given by radiation oncologists?

God no. Look at the lecture notes for any upper level physics course. It's incredibly abstract, especially in quantum physics. http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-04Spring-2006/LectureNotes/index.htm

 

[BlueElmo]

God no. Look at the lecture notes for any upper level physics course. It's incredibly abstract, especially in quantum physics. http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-04Spring-2006/LectureNotes/index.htm

I see, those do look very complex. By the way, did you go to MIT for undergrad?

 

[circulus vitios]

I see, those do look very complex. By the way, did you go to MIT for undergrad?

No, I'm pretty much at the other extreme of undergraduate college rankings. 🙁

 

[randombetch]

God no. Look at the lecture notes for any upper level physics course. It's incredibly abstract, especially in quantum physics. http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Physics/8-04Spring-2006/LectureNotes/index.htm

I took a look around, and I think some of the material is relevant to this article for example:
http://www.jmp.org.in/article.asp?i...ume=35;issue=1;spage=15;epage=22;aulast=Sahoo

The photon energy spectrum? Check out the third lecture on the OCW page.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

You'll learn the physics during residency. If you're doing research or something, you'll probably be able to read up/reference books and learn as you go. Your PI and labmates will likely guide you.

 

[nonsciencemajor]

no. I think you will learn as you go. I say this because a residency program in radiation Oncology (I can't remember which one it is) listed their residents, and some came from fields like history and english.

So I guess this assumes that they expect you be fluent in a year of general physics, physio, pathophys, pharm, and possibly anatomy... except for physics you will learn all these in med school.... so with fluency in those subjects, they will build on that and teach you all the physics you need to know i am assuming

i am a non-science major starting med school in August. I only took the pre-req's and MCAT. But if you ask me which was my favorite pre-req, I would say physics... I LOVED PHYSICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! bio was boring and memorization, but physics amazes me how math physics equations can predict and tell about natural phenoma which we sometimes innately consider intangible and surreal.

my interest in physics, has made me started thinking about radiation oncology as a field i may enjoy... so thats why i am saying there is no need to do additional physics right now

 

[circulus vitios]

I took a look around, and I think some of the material is relevant to this article for example:
http://www.jmp.org.in/article.asp?i...ume=35;issue=1;spage=15;epage=22;aulast=Sahoo

The photon energy spectrum? Check out the third lecture on the OCW page.

Medical physics and radiation oncology are two completely different things.

 

[randombetch]

Medical physics and radiation oncology are two completely different things.

"A high-dose-rate (HDR) 60 Co source is used for the treatment of gynecological cancers due to its longer half-life as compared with the more conventional 192 Ir source."

The first sentence talks about the treatment of cancer using radiation... I think this paper would be pretty relevant to some radiation oncologists.

 

[circulus vitios]

"A high-dose-rate (HDR) 60 Co source is used for the treatment of gynecological cancers due to its longer half-life as compared with the more conventional 192 Ir source."

The first sentence talks about the treatment of cancer using radiation... I think this paper would be pretty relevant to some radiation oncologists.

Radiation oncologists don't perform/interpret medical physics research. Medical physicists are trained to perform medical physics research. They are not clinicians.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Rad Onc is a fellowship anyway so it's extremely removed from undergrad.

Radiation oncology is also residency.

 

[anavistas]

The Physics part is done by medical physicists and even they don't need to know advanced Physics, not Quantum mechanics for sure. The radiation oncologist just sets the plan and draw the tumor then med-physicists optimize the radiation. Quantum mechanics doesn't help at all, but a superficial knowledge of nuclear physics helps.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I doubt anything like quantum mechanics or nuclear physics would be of much use to you. Intermediate E&M definitely is not worthwhile from a practical standpoint. A modern physics course might help you out some, though. It's typically one of those classes that's barely a step above Physics 1 and 2 and just gives you an intro to really basic nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, and relativity. Honestly, I think it's a great course for any educated person to have. Knowing how the world around you works is never a bad thing.

 

[plauto]

Radiation oncology is also residency.

my bad. For some reason I thought it was a fellowship after rad, just like interventional rad

 

[Narmerguy]

my bad. For some reason I thought it was a fellowship after rad, just like interventional rad

You might be thinking of hematology/oncology which is a fellowship after internal medicine.

 

[randombetch]

Radiation oncologists don't perform/interpret medical physics research. Medical physicists are trained to perform medical physics research. They are not clinicians.

The Physics part is done by medical physicists and even they don't need to know advanced Physics, not Quantum mechanics for sure. The radiation oncologist just sets the plan and draw the tumor then med-physicists optimize the radiation. Quantum mechanics doesn't help at all, but a superficial knowledge of nuclear physics helps.

Hahah, alright you guys convinced me!

Screwww upper level physics.

Omg, the modern physics class at my school requires Quantum Mechanics, Thermal Physics, and Quantum Theory. F that S.

 

[MilkmanAl]

So much for that. 😛

 

[Narmerguy]

So much for that. 😛

Nah that's really uncommon I think. I've heard of the same class from multiple schools (that makes 4 including yours) and it never had those kind of requirements first.

 

[Hoody]

Arent there like physics boards too...? 😕

I'm just PRE med so I don't know much, but I have seen it mentioned elsewhere that people had to take and pass physics boards (maybe during residency?). But I image all the info you needed to pass that test would be given to you during your training.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Arent there like physics boards too...? 😕

I'm just PRE med so I don't know much, but I have seen it mentioned elsewhere that people had to take and pass physics boards (maybe during residency?). But I image all the info you needed to pass that test would be given to you during your training.

You read that in another thread about some person complaining about crap pre-med advisers.

https://www.aapm.org/education/documents/Curriculum.pdf

 

[blaithnaid]

Another question that's completely unrelated: can someone help me out with the abbreviations for what year you are during the medical school/residency/attending progression? Okay, so PGY-1 to PGY-8 means that's your "post-graduate year" after you finished med school. I think some attendings refer to themselves as CA-1 for their first year as an attending? What does CA mean? And does "MS-1" mean you're a first year med student?

Thanks.

MS-0 : just got admitted.
MS-1-4 : med stud, years 1-4
PGY-1: intern (1st yr of residency)
PGY-2-X: 2nd year of residency through last
CA-1: anesthesia residency yr 1 (goes up to 3, I think, they have to do an prelim in med or surg first)

some fellows will refer to themselves as PGY-whatever.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Arent there like physics boards too...? 😕

I'm just PRE med so I don't know much, but I have seen it mentioned elsewhere that people had to take and pass physics boards (maybe during residency?). But I image all the info you needed to pass that test would be given to you during your training.

Yea, I believe radoncs take physics, radiobiology/cancer biology, clinical oncology, and have an oral exam as part of their boards.

You'll have physics and radbio/cancer cell bio lectures during residency.

Edit: ABR website: http://theabr.org/ic/ic_ro/ic_ro_study.html

 

[MilkmanAl]

Nah that's really uncommon I think. I've heard of the same class from multiple schools (that makes 4 including yours) and it never had those kind of requirements first.

Yeah, I'd never heard of it having reqs higher than intro stuff since it's kind of a catch-all course. Oh well.

 

[randombetch]

MS-0 : just got admitted.
MS-1-4 : med stud, years 1-4
PGY-1: intern (1st yr of residency)
PGY-2-X: 2nd year of residency through last
CA-1: anesthesia residency yr 1 (goes up to 3, I think, they have to do an prelim in med or surg first)

some fellows will refer to themselves as PGY-whatever.

Ohh, okay thanks a lot. I was confused about the "CA" thing.