Sleep Med Preference

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Zenman1

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What's your preference for sleep meds? I work with Soldiers and don't have a great preference for anything taking awhile to work or causes hangovers the next day, particularly, Benadryl, Hydroxyzine, Trazodone, or Doxepin. One person doing my peer review this month even made it a point to send me an article on how anxiolytic and hypnotic meds triple mortality risk and one on the risk of Alzheimer's with benzos, both from BMJ. I tend not to use benzos or hypnotics for a long period if possible, even though Stahl thinks chronic insomnia has to be treated chronically. Thoughts?
 
Usually not a huge fan of sleep meds. Often times I find it to be a result of a lot of personality pathology that is not incentivized to get better. I try as much as possible to maximize benefit with whatever I'm treating them for. In a couple cases I try to push trazodone to antidepressant doses. Of course, this requires educating the patient on this fact and emphasize that it's often not used as an antidepressant anymore in part because of its sedating properties, then emphasize that with them it'd wouldn't be a concern. After the obvious of trazodone and antihistamines, may consider augmentation with Remeron. Very rarely Seroquel or a TCA.

I really dislike Ambien. In my personal bias, I think it's worse than benzos but given out more freely. Seems people get more amnesic and intoxicated with it than on benzos (normal prescribed doses, that is). It's also my bias that people aren't actually sleeping more / better with ambien, they're just waking up not remembering what happened at night and conclude they slept well and thus are satisfied.

Basically, I try to give them the spiel on long-term use of things like Ambien or benzos for sleep. Naturally, most agree but insist. Always emphasize that they will worsen their sleep apnea, which really all this patient education seems to just buy a small amount of time until you just acquiesce to clear out all your messages and time you don't have scheduled and don't get paid for to respond to endless phone calls about why whatever non-benzo/stimulant med you prescribed "isn't working" and why all of the others they're allergic to or will make them worse and, damnit, they need that stimulant/benzo/both.

/jaded

On the other hand, there are a handful of people that don't sleep because of anxiety, which seems to not respond very well to trying to sedate them past anxiety. I'm a lot more comfortable with benzos in these populations as they're typically not wanting them specifically. Usually a smaller dose of clonazepam.
 
I think in the US we really don't push sleep hygiene enough. It's part of the American culture, "give me a pill t make me sleep." For that reason, I hardly ever prescribe Ambient/benzo's. Almost no patient really ever tries a good course of CBT-I, or wears their CPAP consistently.
 

On the other hand, there are a handful of people that don't sleep because of anxiety, which seems to not respond very well to trying to sedate them past anxiety. I'm a lot more comfortable with benzos in these populations as they're typically not wanting them specifically. Usually a smaller dose of clonazepam.


I don't often like talking about personal anecdotes, but towards the end of college I started getting terrible anxiety isolated only to the night before big exams and with that anxiety I didnt sleep well at all. Got to the point where the terrible sleep the night before was starting to have a big impact on my grades on exams. When I got to medschool it was even worse, first test I couldnt sleep at all night before and didnt do nearly as well as I should and was absolutely dreading the next exam. I tested benadryl/trazadone etc and they didnt put me to sleep and I felt like a zombie next day.

In desperation I convinced my old long term internist to write an Rx for short acting z-drug and it was essentially a miracle for me. Used the 15 pills he prescribed over the course of the next 3 years worth of exams, had zero anxiety leading up to exam weeks, slept 9 hours every night before a test and rocked all my remaining tests/boards, got AOA/etc. I genuinely think that ten dollar prescription may have been the difference between failing out of medschool and being AOA.
 
What's your preference for sleep meds? I work with Soldiers and don't have a great preference for anything taking awhile to work or causes hangovers the next day, particularly, Benadryl, Hydroxyzine, Trazodone, or Doxepin. One person doing my peer review this month even made it a point to send me an article on how anxiolytic and hypnotic meds triple mortality risk and one on the risk of Alzheimer's with benzos, both from BMJ. I tend not to use benzos or hypnotics for a long period if possible, even though Stahl thinks chronic insomnia has to be treated chronically. Thoughts?

How much of Stahl's practice involves patients?
 
R/O OSA as cause of frequent awakenings.

1. Sleep hygiene including exercise and avoidance of caffeine/stimulants.
2. CBT for behavioral insomnia.
3. Short half-life new-gen hypnotics. Very short HL for maintenance insomnia, longer HL for initiation.
4. If migraines and overweight, topamax.
5. If depressed, mirtazepine/sedating TCA's.

(But I'm a med student and this is just from a month of sleep clinic.)
 
Do you all notice a large correlation with OCD and delayed sleep phase disorder?

I have both, and while my OCD is treated, people seem to ignore the delayed sleep phase disorder. I've read recently that they commonly occur together. I self-treat the DSPD with a blue light early in the day and wearing amber glasses at night, but it hasn't had great effect. I'm going to ask my doctor about melatonin possibly. I don't want to take it without a doctor monitoring it as I don't like taking supplements that aren't directed and known about by a doctor.

I've also read that DSPD can be misdiagnosed as insomnia in people who have daytime requirements that force them to rise at a normal hour. It's good to look at what a person's sleeping pattern is when they are able to sleep ad libitum. For me, if I am allowed to sleep as I want, I can sleep 7-8 hours, but it's in the daytime.
 
In desperation I convinced my old long term internist to write an Rx for short acting z-drug and it was essentially a miracle for me. Used the 15 pills he prescribed over the course of the next 3 years worth of exams, had zero anxiety leading up to exam weeks, slept 9 hours every night before a test and rocked all my remaining tests/boards, got AOA/etc. I genuinely think that ten dollar prescription may have been the difference between failing out of medschool and being AOA.
placebo effect is miraculous at times. regardless this would be a very reasonable use of these drugs. i have friends who used it in a very similar way.
 
Avoid Gaba based medication with OSA and insomnia. Also, try to avoid Remeron due to the weight gain. And be sure none of your medications are inducing PLMD/RLS symptoms.

It goes on and on. Hard to manage insomnia with other co-morbid sleep conditions.

I did a crash course on CBTI with the therapists in my office. Too many times insomnia is one of the presenting symptoms and reviewed the role of the circadian rhythm.
 
I'm usually asleep before my head hits the pillow. IA few months ago I was having really bad work stress and insomnia. My psych doc prescribed Lorazepam 1 mg and told me to take it for a week straight. Took care of that problem.
 
In AA there is a popular saying that no one ever died from lack of sleep. This sounds a bit harsh and I would not apply that thinking to non-addicts who are struggling with sleep issues. The main point is that difficulty sleeping is normal during early stages of recovery and the bigger point is that if you try to medicate all of the symptoms an addict has during their first few months of recovery, you'll find yourself playing whack-a-mole. I always find it amusing how the "depressed" addicts will be laughing and joking in my office or in group while they are telling the psychiatrist how awful their depression is. We know what moderate to severe depression looks like and when an addict has that, treat it. When they are grumpy and irritable and can't sleep because they aren't taking their drug of choice, that will pass. Unless they decide to keep using, cause then they will be depressed and you can't treat that one.
 
Do you all notice a large correlation with OCD and delayed sleep phase disorder?

I have both, and while my OCD is treated, people seem to ignore the delayed sleep phase disorder. I've read recently that they commonly occur together. I self-treat the DSPD with a blue light early in the day and wearing amber glasses at night, but it hasn't had great effect. I'm going to ask my doctor about melatonin possibly. I don't want to take it without a doctor monitoring it as I don't like taking supplements that aren't directed and known about by a doctor.

I've also read that DSPD can be misdiagnosed as insomnia in people who have daytime requirements that force them to rise at a normal hour. It's good to look at what a person's sleeping pattern is when they are able to sleep ad libitum. For me, if I am allowed to sleep as I want, I can sleep 7-8 hours, but it's in the daytime.

Interesting, I have DSPD too and OCD tendencies (or whatever you call it when you still occasionally have obsessive thoughts and rituals, but you don't meet full diagnostic criteria anymore). I've never actually thought of there being a connection.
 
I think there's an analogy somewhere...Maybe: sleep drugs are like butt holes. Everyone has one and they all stink?

Mostly, it's the chronic use and rapid tolerance issue.
Well, there is suvorexant but I don't know anyone brave enough to try it with psych patients.
And when they do work, we're generally talking about reducing time to fall asleep, on the order of minutes.
So basically, we are palliating subjective poor sleep by treating it. Often the trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

Of course, sleep is critically important. To suicide risk, impact on mental illness symptoms, impact on physiologic wellness, impact on psychologic understanding of self. So important that insomnia is a supporting criteria for psychiatric admission for Medicare.

I don't find sleep hygiene education helpful usually. More helpful is normalizing expectations and placing emphasis on daytime functioning rather than subjective sleep quality.

CBT-Insomnia works, but good luck finding a patient who has the means or will follow-up with that recommendation. There are a couple of on-line courses I've recommended to some patients. None have done it that I know.

Then a host of actual sleep disorders that may be primary or comorbid. People tend to think about OSA, but my experience is the process of psychiatrist thinking "you may have sleep apnea" to patient getting CPAP fails far more often than not. Plus there's things like delayed sleep phase disorder where we end up mucking things up very often. Don't think we evaluate narcolepsy appropriately either, unless they present with cataplexy.

Would love to hear other experiences -- possibly just my training environment that mostly slings meds at it rather than universal experiences.
 
What's your preference for sleep meds? I work with Soldiers and don't have a great preference for anything taking awhile to work or causes hangovers the next day, particularly, Benadryl, Hydroxyzine, Trazodone, or Doxepin. One person doing my peer review this month even made it a point to send me an article on how anxiolytic and hypnotic meds triple mortality risk and one on the risk of Alzheimer's with benzos, both from BMJ. I tend not to use benzos or hypnotics for a long period if possible, even though Stahl thinks chronic insomnia has to be treated chronically. Thoughts?

What about Promethazine? I haven't taken it for a while so I can't recall the hangover potential, but it certainly helps with sleep.
 
I think there's an analogy somewhere...Maybe: sleep drugs are like butt holes. Everyone has one and they all stink?

Mostly, it's the chronic use and rapid tolerance issue.
Well, there is suvorexant but I don't know anyone brave enough to try it with psych patients.
And when they do work, we're generally talking about reducing time to fall asleep, on the order of minutes.
So basically, we are palliating subjective poor sleep by treating it. Often the trade-off doesn't seem worth it.

Of course, sleep is critically important. To suicide risk, impact on mental illness symptoms, impact on physiologic wellness, impact on psychologic understanding of self. So important that insomnia is a supporting criteria for psychiatric admission for Medicare.

I don't find sleep hygiene education helpful usually. More helpful is normalizing expectations and placing emphasis on daytime functioning rather than subjective sleep quality.

CBT-Insomnia works, but good luck finding a patient who has the means or will follow-up with that recommendation. There are a couple of on-line courses I've recommended to some patients. None have done it that I know.

Then a host of actual sleep disorders that may be primary or comorbid. People tend to think about OSA, but my experience is the process of psychiatrist thinking "you may have sleep apnea" to patient getting CPAP fails far more often than not. Plus there's things like delayed sleep phase disorder where we end up mucking things up very often. Don't think we evaluate narcolepsy appropriately either, unless they present with cataplexy.

Would love to hear other experiences -- possibly just my training environment that mostly slings meds at it rather than universal experiences.

All of these questions and more is what drove me to sleep medicine fellowship.

And Belsomra is just another tool to use for sleep. Start with sleep diaries, it's very illuminating for you and the Pt - be sure they complete them the following day and not before going to bed.
 
CBT-Insomnia works, but good luck finding a patient who has the means or will follow-up with that recommendation. There are a couple of on-line courses I've recommended to some patients. None have done it that I know.

Yeah, this. It's certainly not available for my community MH patients. The VA I rotated at had a really good CBT-I program, but it was a tough sale.

I hate dealing with sleep issues.
 
Plus there's things like delayed sleep phase disorder where we end up mucking things up very often...

In what way, out of curiosity? Mucking things up I mean. I've only ever tried chronotherapy for DSPD, it didn't really work that well. To be honest after this long I've more or less just gotten used to having it, I don't bother trying to treat it anymore, and I try to kind of adjust my life around it as best I can, but I've always thought other methods of treatment like light therapy and melatonin were relatively safe.
 
CBT-Insomnia works, but good luck finding a patient who has the means or will follow-up with that recommendation. There are a couple of on-line courses I've recommended to some patients. None have done it that I know.
CBT-I should be available at most decent VAs and some Vet Centers. The VA has been putting more and more emphasis on sleep.
Remeron 15 mg 1/4 to 1/2 po qhs or clonidine .1 mg qhs
I don't give mirtazapine unless there's a real mood component. Most vets don't need the extra pounds that came come with it. It also has a hangover effect.

Zenman- For CBT, I usually lay out the palatable available options and discuss risks/benefits. A bit of psychoeducation about medications often will often make CBT-I seem more worthwhile: any medication that will help you fall and stay asleep has a bit potential for daytime sedation/grogginess/hangover.
 
You guys are all leaving out the "My last doctor gave me 20mg Ambien, why won't you?" part.

There are some decent CBT apps in the app store, which can help for the pt that doesn't have access to "true" CBT-I. Also a large medical facility I used to work at had a CBT app as well as website, kind of an online self-help program for healthy sleep. It cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20, but it did work if the patient was invested in it.
 
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CBT-I should be available at most decent VAs and some Vet Centers. The VA has been putting more and more emphasis on sleep.

I don't give mirtazapine unless there's a real mood component. Most vets don't need the extra pounds that came come with it. It also has a hangover effect.

Weight gain is usually low and not in all patients, low doses usually don't give a hangover in my patients. Try it or clonidine for a couple and see what they think.
 
In what way, out of curiosity? Mucking things up I mean. I've only ever tried chronotherapy for DSPD, it didn't really work that well. To be honest after this long I've more or less just gotten used to having it, I don't bother trying to treat it anymore, and I try to kind of adjust my life around it as best I can, but I've always thought other methods of treatment like light therapy and melatonin were relatively safe.
Chronotherapy as in staying up later and later until you're staying awake until the next night? Or the one where you force yourself to wake up earlier? I've heard the former can result in non-24-hour syndrome. I do the latter but it doesn't work.

I too just try to work around it, but when it keeps advancing it gets really hard to do the basics in life. To people I don't know well I lie and tell them I work a night shift because it's a somewhat embarrassing problem (having the appearance of laziness). Even some doctors haven't heard of it and they seem to dismiss it fairly quickly. Speaking of light therapy, which type did you use? I have the over the counter Philips GoLite. I've read some people say you need much bigger light boxes that cost quite a small fortune.
 
...or turns off the TV/computer/iPad in their bedrooms. 🙄
If you want to watch TV at night but also block the blue light that is the light that supposedly prevents sleep hormones from working, these are great:
Amazon product ASIN B003OBZ64M
If I look at a really bright blue light with those on, the light is virtually gone--just a small haze of green.
 
Chronotherapy as in staying up later and later until you're staying awake until the next night? Or the one where you force yourself to wake up earlier? I've heard the former can result in non-24-hour syndrome. I do the latter but it doesn't work.

I too just try to work around it, but when it keeps advancing it gets really hard to do the basics in life. To people I don't know well I lie and tell them I work a night shift because it's a somewhat embarrassing problem (having the appearance of laziness). Even some doctors haven't heard of it and they seem to dismiss it fairly quickly. Speaking of light therapy, which type did you use? I have the over the counter Philips GoLite. I've read some people say you need much bigger light boxes that cost quite a small fortune.

Chronotherapy as in when you gradually shift your sleep forward 1-2 hours until you're sleeping at a semi normal time. I already have non circadian periods (days where I just don't sleep for 24 hours or more), so that's not a consideration. I don't think it's the same as non 24 hour syndrome though, as far as I know it's part of DSPD. I've never done light therapy, or supplements, or anything else. I've had this since childhood, probably from birth according to my Mum's recollections, I don't think it's going away any time soon.

edited to add: Bugger being ashamed of it as well, if other people want to mistake a genuine disorder of sleep for laziness then that's their problem. Just because I'm tired and usually sleeping in daylight hours doesn't mean I'm not up doing things at night time.
 
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Weight gain is usually low and not in all patients, low doses usually don't give a hangover in my patients. Try it or clonidine for a couple and see what they think.
I started Mirtazapine 15 mg on a patient today who is on Lexapro 20mg and still so depressed he makes me depressed. I was thinking about adding Wellbutrin but since he had sleep problems, anxiety, and wanted to gain a few pounds I thought I'd see how it worked for him.
 
You guys are all leaving out the "My last doctor gave me 20mg Ambien, why won't you?" part.

There are some decent CBT apps in the app store, which can help for the pt that doesn't have access to "true" CBT-I. Also a large medical facility I used to work at had a CBT app as well as website, kind of an online self-help program for healthy sleep. It cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $20, but it did work if the patient was invested in it.

Make that Klonopin with a long acting opioid. le sigh.
 
Unless the case is severe skip sleep meds, go with sleep hygiene and melatonin.

Alpha stimulation can help sleep. I'm still learning how to use the thing. Got an alpha stimulator and zapped myself. Gave me a heck of a good night of sleep.
 
Unless the case is severe skip sleep meds, go with sleep hygiene and melatonin.

Alpha stimulation can help sleep. I'm still learning how to use the thing. Got an alpha stimulator and zapped myself. Gave me a heck of a good night of sleep.

Can you please post the link of the one you got? Thanks.
 
With soldiers, I'd be looking closely for insidious PTSD. I've had good luck with prazosin even if the patient doesn't overtly remember nightmares.

I feel like chronic insomnia can usually be attributed to an anxiety disorder. It's pretty rare that I encounter a patient with insomnia that's not caused by some other active psychiatric illness. Usually I'll try to treat the insomnia with something that will also treat the primary problem... I like nortriptyline or mirtazapine for somebody whose insomnia is caused by a depressive disorder that didn't improve with SSRIs, antipsychotics if they're psychotic, sedating mood stabilizer for somebody with bipolar disorder, etc. If trazodone is causing a hangover, I'll usually try a smaller dose. If there's any sign of nightmares or vivid dreams, prazosin is useful, even if they don't have overt PTSD.

Also look out for insomnia due to OSA, restless legs (I was surprised when I ran into this one), etc.

I think that the idea of having a "preferred sleep med" is somewhat fallacious. Figure out the best medication for whatever the patient's underlying problem is.
 
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And Belsomra is just another tool to use for sleep. Start with sleep diaries, it's very illuminating for you and the Pt - be sure they complete them the following day and not before going to bed.

Been seeing ads for this all the time. Iatrogenic narcolepsy (side effects include cataplexy and sleep paralysis). I need to read the primary literature to see if it causes disruption to the sleep cycle like narcolepsy does.

Edit: So yeah, Suvorexant has significantly increased awakenings (all types) and selectively increased REM. Looks like there are other drugs in the pipeline that only inhibit OX2R which don't have the selective REM increase but may have similarly affected stability (but not statistically significant in the study.) Study Link

This may be part of why primary study outcomes focused on (subjective) total sleep time and (subjective) time to sleep onset, and not subjective fatigue.
 
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Been seeing ads for this all the time. Iatrogenic narcolepsy (side effects include cataplexy and sleep paralysis). I need to read the primary literature to see if it causes disruption to the sleep cycle like narcolepsy does.

Edit: So yeah, Suvorexant has significantly increased awakenings (all types) and selectively increased REM. Looks like there are other drugs in the pipeline that only inhibit OX2R which don't have the selective REM increase but may have similarly affected stability (but not statistically significant in the study.) Study Link

This may be part of why primary study outcomes focused on (subjective) total sleep time and (subjective) time to sleep onset, and not subjective fatigue.

So, yeah, all medications have side effects. To focus solely on a substance which has about a 3-5% chance to induce cataplexy and the relate it back to narcolepsy, I think you're missing something more deeply important.

Narcolepsy is not a disorder of sleepiness, it's a disorder of wakefulness. Unless other CNS hypersomnias which have problems with sleepiness with/without long sleep periods. But this too isn't further qualified much in ICSD-3.

Currently, the primary choices for treating sleep onset/maintenance insomnia is via GABA stimulation (to one degree or another) or Histamine blockade. Belsomra is a good 3rd option when the other choices are not the best. Remember, there is a time and place for each medication.
 
So, yeah, all medications have side effects. To focus solely on a substance which has about a 3-5% chance to induce cataplexy and the relate it back to narcolepsy, I think you're missing something more deeply important.

Narcolepsy is not a disorder of sleepiness, it's a disorder of wakefulness. Unless other CNS hypersomnias which have problems with sleepiness with/without long sleep periods. But this too isn't further qualified much in ICSD-3.

Currently, the primary choices for treating sleep onset/maintenance insomnia is via GABA stimulation (to one degree or another) or Histamine blockade. Belsomra is a good 3rd option when the other choices are not the best. Remember, there is a time and place for each medication.
Oh I was just being a bit hyperbolic; the side-effects (and intended effect) made a lot of sense to me when viewed in that lens.

I'm curious what you mean by disorder of wakefulness and not sleepiness? As I understand it, the sleep-wake cycle is disrupted, causing problems with both (maintenance of) wakefulness and disturbed nocturnal sleep--(IIRC) more fragmented sleep architecture with increased microarousals and decreased SWS.

Good point about the others being GABA/Histamine-ergic, which are going to similarly affect sleep architecture. I hadn't thought of it in terms of that comparison. More research to do, I'm wondering how well any of them affect subjective fatigue (as compared to sleep onset/duration.)


Edits -- I normally write very concisely which tends to sound argumentative, trying to rephrase things.
 
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Been seeing ads for this all the time. Iatrogenic narcolepsy (side effects include cataplexy and sleep paralysis). I need to read the primary literature to see if it causes disruption to the sleep cycle like narcolepsy does.

Edit: So yeah, Suvorexant has significantly increased awakenings (all types) and selectively increased REM. Looks like there are other drugs in the pipeline that only inhibit OX2R which don't have the selective REM increase but may have similarly affected stability (but not statistically significant in the study.) Study Link

This may be part of why primary study outcomes focused on (subjective) total sleep time and (subjective) time to sleep onset, and not subjective fatigue.
I have started this on a patient. Will see what happens
 
It's good. Concise is fine with me. With Narcolepsy because the sleep-wake cycle is disrupted with the loss of Orexin neurons, you're unable to maintain wakefulness and sleep is heavily disrupted as you've said. But it isn't about 'sleepiness' per se, rather the lack of the ability to remain awake. Check out Xyrem.
 
What about Promethazine? I haven't taken it for a while so I can't recall the hangover potential, but it certainly helps with sleep.

Will certainly cause sleepiness, keep you asleep and leave you wishing you were still asleep (once awake). I have taken it for years for nausea and one does build a tolerance. However, having experienced this medication, I cannot imagine using it to sleep if there are other options.

On a different note, every now and then I find anemia to be quite the sleeping difficulty slayer...side effect: zombie 24/7
 
I describe suvorexant to patients as a drug that's meant to mimic narcolepsy. It's not just because it causes cataplexy - it's mainly because it inhibits orexin receptors, which is a system that's well-known to be underactive in narcolepsy.
 
I describe suvorexant to patients as a drug that's meant to mimic narcolepsy. It's not just because it causes cataplexy - it's mainly because it inhibits orexin receptors, which is a system that's well-known to be underactive in narcolepsy.

Not an accurate description. For one, orexin neuron have died off or are no longer functioning. Since it's a disorder of wakefulness, using this medication wouldn't be 'inducing' anything remotely close to narcolepsy despite the colloquialism you've created. It triggers the on/off switch for enter into sleep.
 
Check out Xyrem.

I think of Xyrem as allowing pw narcolepsy to get the SWS they're missing, while also reducing the number of microarousals. While they may have trouble staying awake, I think of the cause as being trouble with sleep secondary to the aforementioned neuronal loss. Of course, that's probably way oversimplified.

Off-topic, $6k a month thanks to artificial monopoly on a drug that wasn't even discovered by Jazz; Orphan Medical was asked to investigate it by the fed and subsequently purchased by Jazz! If even 1% of the people in the country w/ narcolepsy are on Xyrem, that's $18M per month.

It triggers the on/off switch for enter into sleep.
That's a really great way of making the distinction/explaining it.
 
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What's your preference for sleep meds? I work with Soldiers and don't have a great preference for anything taking awhile to work or causes hangovers the next day, particularly, Benadryl, Hydroxyzine, Trazodone, or Doxepin. One person doing my peer review this month even made it a point to send me an article on how anxiolytic and hypnotic meds triple mortality risk and one on the risk of Alzheimer's with benzos, both from BMJ. I tend not to use benzos or hypnotics for a long period if possible, even though Stahl thinks chronic insomnia has to be treated chronically. Thoughts?
In your peer review at the VA as an np, didn't your collaborating physicians give you ideas on what other interventions to try?
 
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