SMP or Re-apply? Honest feedback please!

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3.6/34 with an upward trend?

You don't need an SMP.
 
Honestly looks like a solid app. If you had applied to 20+ schools I think you'd be sitting on an acceptance or two. Work in something medically related, reapply, and have multiple other people read over your app. Spend some serious time on your personal statement. You really should consider applying to even more than 18-20 schools (why not 30 schools?), the only downside is money and time (trust me, I feel your pain on those fronts, but it's worth it). Throw in a bigger mix of schools, some reach, middle, and lower tier. Be a little bit more flexible geographically, are you applying too much in one area of the US? I hit both coasts pretty heavily with a handful of apps in the middle. You definitely don't need an SMP, some more medical experience would benefit your app. Your EC's are solid but not stellar, you can spend from now until you apply improving that portion of your application. Also, since this is your second round, think about adding in some DO schools for backup. I prefer MD schools and you should be able to get into one, but after going through a cycle it would behoove you to be open to applying to a wider range of schools.
 
PhillyDoc11 said:
Thanks for the advice.

I definitely limited myself to only my state and neighboring states. The appeal of the SMP to me is mostly about showing that I could handle medical school courses without withdrawing again, and the linkages/conditional acceptances directly into med schools. I also did apply to 3 DO schools actually (was trying to keep it pre-allo), but only heard back from 1 (the most competitive, maybe yield protection at the others?). They grilled me super hard in the interview, which I wasn't prepared for as all my others had been super pleasant, and I sucked. They definitely knew that I wasn't dead set on only becoming a DO, and they asked me about the withdrawals and burnout probably with 50% of their questions. It was a really awful experience honestly but I learned from it, and will hopefully be prepared if I ever have a similar interview. That being said, I liked everyone at the school aside from the one person who gave me a hard time during the interview, and would have been thrilled to know that I could be a DO 4 years from now.
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Your story is similar to my own in some respects; I had health problems (though mostly physical, and luckily since resolved) and withdrew from more than a few classes as well. I ended up doing a post-bac and it was one of the best choices I ever made. I did my undergrad degree then, when I took an honest look at my academic record, realized I needed to demonstrate that I could handle a med school course-load. I then spent two years doing a second degree, applied at the end of my second year, and am currently in my gap year. I definitely would not have gotten in without doing a post-bac, but I did my first degree in social science so I was able to do a science degree in my post-bac (not sure what your first degree is in). Our MCAT scores (and score distributions) are almost identical as well, ha. While retaking it would suck, since you did well on the verbal section you may very well do even better on the new MCAT. The downside I see to SMPs are mainly the cost and the potential issues if you do poorly in it. If you have the money and are certain you can rock it then go for it. I just am not convinced that you need it. Could you do a fifth year (if you haven't yet graduated)? May be cheaper. Some of the SMPs do stack you up against med school students and that may allow you to demonstrate your mettle. However, the timeline of it doesn't make it a clearly superior option. If you were to start applying early for this coming cycle, at most the med schools you applied to would have a letter/some grades about your performance during Fall semester/quarter 2016. They wouldn't have a whole year of grades or anything. So you're paying quite a bit of money to demonstrate your performance over a very short period of time. If you were to postpone your apps until Spring 2017 (which you shouldn't) then they would have your whole SMP year of grades/letters to look at. That being said, I have two friends who went the SMP route and got into med school. I paid less and did as well. What I did was the best option for me, I have no idea if what they did was the best option for them, but it got us to the same place.

The biggest thing to me is that, between your GPA and MCAT, it's really not the academic side of things that you need to improve a lot. Sure you had a crappy year. I know plenty of current and accepted students that go into school with some W's and/or terrible grades. Seems like you redeemed yourself academically this last year, though. If I were you I would focus on your EC's and get some really great experiences in, be they volunteer, work, or a combination of the two. The number of hours you've spent doing non-medical volunteering are honestly pretty light. Furthermore, it's well known that medical mission trips can often benefit the student more than the communities you're visiting. They're not necessarily a negative, but so many people do them and schools have no way of knowing what you actually did and whether it was truly a well thought out, beneficial effort for the community. Your clinical volunteering/shadowing is also in the so-so range. There are plenty of people that do many times what you've done. Would your year be better spent demonstrating your commitment to patient care and serving others? It might be. My volunteer activities were the main thing that I was asked about during my (open file) interviews. If you were to to spend the year perhaps taking some advanced science courses, volunteering and working (in healthcare or maybe a field like Teach for America or Americorps), and rocking the MCAT even harder, I think you'd be in an equivalent to better place than doing an SMP and it would cost you way, way, way less.
 
PhillyDoc11 said:
Thanks for the advice.

I definitely limited myself to only my state and neighboring states. The appeal of the SMP to me is mostly about showing that I could handle medical school courses without withdrawing again, and the linkages/conditional acceptances directly into med schools. I also did apply to 3 DO schools actually (was trying to keep it pre-allo), but only heard back from 1 (the most competitive, maybe yield protection at the others?). They grilled me super hard in the interview, which I wasn't prepared for as all my others had been super pleasant, and I sucked. They definitely knew that I wasn't dead set on only becoming a DO, and they asked me about the withdrawals and burnout probably with 50% of their questions. It was a really awful experience honestly but I learned from it, and will hopefully be prepared if I ever have a similar interview. That being said, I liked everyone at the school aside from the one person who gave me a hard time during the interview, and would have been thrilled to know that I could be a DO 4 years from now.
Click to expand...
Ha, I also had my meanest interview at a DO school! Thought I blew it, but got in there. Glad I wasn't forced to go there because the interview totally turned me off to the school. I'm sure it was a nice school and all normally, but wow was it an oddly aggressive interview. Definitely apply DO again, make sure to get some significant DO shadowing in and read up on it plenty, they really don't want to be seen as a backup for MD applicants and you need to be able to articulate during your interviews why they are an institution you would be honored to attend. If you get into an SMP with a linkage to a medical school, that may be worth it, especially if it's a school in the region that you're interested in staying in. One concern I have is if you become depressed again/life happens/etc and you're in a post-bac, withdraw from the quarter and put in an extra year. It would look rocky, but you could probably still do an SMP after that. However, if you're in an SMP and and you get overwhelmed, that might permanently kill your med school chances (as it would demonstrate that maybe you couldn't in fact handle med school). Thus it might be a double edged sword for you. I'm only saying that since your year of full withdrawal was still fairly recently (junior year, right?) and it wasn't like it was three or four years in the past.

EDIT: yeah, looking over your numbers again and your extracurriculars seem pretty light to me. Maybe I'm biased since I'm not an adcom and only know my own and a handful of friends numbers, but I think ECs are really what can open the door since they're looking through tons of apps with great GPAs and MCATs. Might really need to focus on those.
 
emergencycat said:
Your story is similar to my own in some respects; I had health problems (though mostly physical, and luckily since resolved) and withdrew from more than a few classes as well. I ended up doing a post-bac and it was one of the best choices I ever made. I did my undergrad degree then, when I took an honest look at my academic record, realized I needed to demonstrate that I could handle a med school course-load. I then spent two years doing a second degree, applied at the end of my second year, and am currently in my gap year. I definitely would not have gotten in without doing a post-bac, but I did my first degree in social science so I was able to do a science degree in my post-bac (not sure what your first degree is in). Our MCAT scores (and score distributions) are almost identical as well, ha. While retaking it would suck, since you did well on the verbal section you may very well do even better on the new MCAT. The downside I see to SMPs are mainly the cost and the potential issues if you do poorly in it. If you have the money and are certain you can rock it then go for it. I just am not convinced that you need it. Could you do a fifth year (if you haven't yet graduated)? May be cheaper. Some of the SMPs do stack you up against med school students and that may allow you to demonstrate your mettle. However, the timeline of it doesn't make it a clearly superior option. If you were to start applying early for this coming cycle, at most the med schools you applied to would have a letter/some grades about your performance during Fall semester/quarter 2016. They wouldn't have a whole year of grades or anything. So you're paying quite a bit of money to demonstrate your performance over a very short period of time. If you were to postpone your apps until Spring 2017 (which you shouldn't) then they would have your whole SMP year of grades/letters to look at. That being said, I have two friends who went the SMP route and got into med school. I paid less and did as well. What I did was the best option for me, I have no idea if what they did was the best option for them, but it got us to the same place.

The biggest thing to me is that, between your GPA and MCAT, it's really not the academic side of things that you need to improve a lot. Sure you had a crappy year. I know plenty of current and accepted students that go into school with some W's and/or terrible grades. Seems like you redeemed yourself academically this last year, though. If I were you I would focus on your EC's and get some really great experiences in, be they volunteer, work, or a combination of the two. The number of hours you've spent doing non-medical volunteering are honestly pretty light. Furthermore, it's well known that medical mission trips can often benefit the student more than the communities you're visiting. They're not necessarily a negative, but so many people do them and schools have no way of knowing what you actually did and whether it was truly a well thought out, beneficial effort for the community. Your clinical volunteering/shadowing is also in the so-so range. There are plenty of people that do many times what you've done. Would your year be better spent demonstrating your commitment to patient care and serving others? It might be. My volunteer activities were the main thing that I was asked about during my (open file) interviews. If you were to to spend the year perhaps taking some advanced science courses, volunteering and working (in healthcare or maybe a field like Teach for America or Americorps), and rocking the MCAT even harder, I think you'd be in an equivalent to better place than doing an SMP and it would cost you way, way, way less.
Click to expand...

emergencycat said:
Ha, I also had my meanest interview at a DO school! Thought I blew it, but got in there. Glad I wasn't forced to go there because the interview totally turned me off to the school. I'm sure it was a nice school and all normally, but wow was it an oddly aggressive interview. Definitely apply DO again, make sure to get some significant DO shadowing in and read up on it plenty, they really don't want to be seen as a backup for MD applicants and you need to be able to articulate during your interviews why they are an institution you would be honored to attend. If you get into an SMP with a linkage to a medical school, that may be worth it, especially if it's a school in the region that you're interested in staying in. One concern I have is if you become depressed again/life happens/etc and you're in a post-bac, withdraw from the quarter and put in an extra year. It would look rocky, but you could probably still do an SMP after that. However, if you're in an SMP and and you get overwhelmed, that might permanently kill your med school chances (as it would demonstrate that maybe you couldn't in fact handle med school). Thus it might be a double edged sword for you. I'm only saying that since your year of full withdrawal was still fairly recently (junior year, right?) and it wasn't like it was three or four years in the past.

EDIT: yeah, looking over your numbers again and your extracurriculars seem pretty light to me. Maybe I'm biased since I'm not an adcom and only know my own and a handful of friends numbers, but I think ECs are really what can open the door since they're looking through tons of apps with great GPAs and MCATs. Might really need to focus on those.
Click to expand...

It was Fall 13/Spring 14, transferring plus missing out on the year set my graduation date way back but definitely still recent. I really appreciate the advice and unless one of the adcoms chimes in and is greatly in favor of the SMP route for me, I'll just go ahead and work as an EMT while getting hours shadowing and volunteering both clinical + non.

Really hoping that my MCAT will improve by several points and that + better ECs + applying to more schools will get me in somewhere
 
PhillyDoc11 said:
It was Fall 13/Spring 14, transferring plus missing out on the year set my graduation date way back but definitely still recent. I really appreciate the advice and unless one of the adcoms chimes in and is greatly in favor of the SMP route for me, I'll just go ahead and work as an EMT while getting hours shadowing and volunteering both clinical + non.

Really hoping that my MCAT will improve by several points and that + better ECs + applying to more schools will get me in somewhere
Click to expand...
No worries! Yeah, Adcom advice is pretty much always best advice, and they may say that due to your academic issues you should. If you're independently wealthy it may make sense. But, I think it's a pretty costly way to go, both in terms of time and money. It's time that could be spent shadowing and volunteering. From now until mid-summer you could get hundreds of hours split between volunteering and working as an EMT. Definitely buff up the non-clinical volunteering especially. Also, what was your story for your year of withdrawal? Feel free to DM me if you are comfortable with that bit but don't want to post it on a forum. You by no means need to share it, but you should definitely make sure to have an excellent, well-thought out explanation. If there was any kind of personal issues going on (family issues, significant other) I would figure out a way to explain it off as a one-off "I was overwhelmed by X and Z but have since matured and taken steps to ensure that I am fully capable of handling whatever life throws my way in the future" type dealio. You may not need to mention it at all in the written portion, but it might get thrown at you if it hasn't already during an interview. Practice that bit extensively, improvising each time after coming up with a general explanation for it. As long as you can reasonably assure them that you will be able to handle med school/not withdraw, I think med schools can be very forgiving about red flags that are non-recurring in applicants with otherwise solid apps. Adcoms are people too (I think?) and they understand that life can beat you up. It sure sounds like you got right back to it, and that's something you should be proud of. You've worked hard for that GPA and MCAT. Between some more volunteering and a much, much wider app I think you'll stand a good chance.
 
emergencycat said:
No worries! Yeah, Adcom advice is pretty much always best advice, and they may say that due to your academic issues you should. If you're independently wealthy it may make sense. But, I think it's a pretty costly way to go, both in terms of time and money. It's time that could be spent shadowing and volunteering. From now until mid-summer you could get hundreds of hours split between volunteering and working as an EMT. Definitely buff up the non-clinical volunteering especially. Also, what was your story for your year of withdrawal? Feel free to DM me if you are comfortable with that bit but don't want to post it on a forum. You by no means need to share it, but you should definitely make sure to have an excellent, well-thought out explanation. If there was any kind of personal issues going on (family issues, significant other) I would figure out a way to explain it off as a one-off "I was overwhelmed by X and Z but have since matured and taken steps to ensure that I am fully capable of handling whatever life throws my way in the future" type dealio. You may not need to mention it at all in the written portion, but it might get thrown at you if it hasn't already during an interview. Practice that bit extensively, improvising each time after coming up with a general explanation for it. As long as you can reasonably assure them that you will be able to handle med school/not withdraw, I think med schools can be very forgiving about red flags that are non-recurring in applicants with otherwise solid apps. Adcoms are people too (I think?) and they understand that life can beat you up. It sure sounds like you got right back to it, and that's something you should be proud of. You've worked hard for that GPA and MCAT. Between some more volunteering and a much, much wider app I think you'll stand a good chance.
Click to expand...

Sure, I will message you later to get your thoughts on the situation and how I presented it. Would love to hear what you think and I honestly really appreciate the encouragement

Dro133 said:
Don't think this was mentioned yet: did you apply early?
Click to expand...

Another good point to consider! I believe I had my primary in about 2 weeks after it opened up and I completed secondaries as they came, within about a week typically
 
You had 3 interviews out of 8 applications. In all likelihood, you did not cast a wide enough net; I would have recommended at least 14 applications including some away from your local area because in an area away from home you would be providing some geographic diversity to the class just as someone from Nebraska would provide geographic diversity in Philly.

At least 3 schools (and a DO school) found that your application was good enough for interview which, to me, does not suggest that your GPA is a problem. IMHO, a SMP is for those who have a GPA that raises questions about the ability to be academically successful.

Having no volunteerism of a non-clinical nature at the time of your application, was a deficiency. Medicine is about service and many adcoms are looking for those who want to be of service in any way they can. Better late than never. To me, that is where your focus should be.
 
LizzyM said:
You had 3 interviews out of 8 applications. In all likelihood, you did not cast a wide enough net; I would have recommended at least 14 applications including some away from your local area because in an area away from home you would be providing some geographic diversity to the class just as someone from Nebraska would provide geographic diversity in Philly.

At least 3 schools (and a DO school) found that your application was good enough for interview which, to me, does not suggest that your GPA is a problem. IMHO, a SMP is for those who have a GPA that raises questions about the ability to be academically successful.

Having no volunteerism of a non-clinical nature at the time of your application, was a deficiency. Medicine is about service and many adcoms are looking for those who want to be of service in any way they can. Better late than never. To me, that is where your focus should be.
Click to expand...

Thank you! Will focus in on getting hours prior to next cycle. The position I started at last month is really enjoyable and fulfilling, and hopefully that will be reflected in my application
 
Concur with my sage colleague. OP needs a strategically thought out list, not an SMP. Also, work on the interview skills.

IF you get shut out this cyclem, contact Admissions deans and ask for feedback on the rejections.

LizzyM said:
You had 3 interviews out of 8 applications. In all likelihood, you did not cast a wide enough net; I would have recommended at least 14 applications including some away from your local area because in an area away from home you would be providing some geographic diversity to the class just as someone from Nebraska would provide geographic diversity in Philly.

At least 3 schools (and a DO school) found that your application was good enough for interview which, to me, does not suggest that your GPA is a problem. IMHO, a SMP is for those who have a GPA that raises questions about the ability to be academically successful.

Having no volunteerism of a non-clinical nature at the time of your application, was a deficiency. Medicine is about service and many adcoms are looking for those who want to be of service in any way they can. Better late than never. To me, that is where your focus should be.
Click to expand...
 
ZedsDed said:
Well right off the bat I can tell you that applying to only 8 schools was a big mistake, but @gyngyn or @GrapesofRath may be able to spot the holes in your application quicker than I can.
Click to expand...

Here are the problematic areas I see.

1) Youll be a reapplicant when you apply again.
2) The W's.
3) The decision making you showed in during the second term of W's taking classes when you clearly shouldnt have been. The 2nd bout of W's isnt a positive and just draws more attention to the issues you had which you dont want.
4) The lack of community service LizzyM was talking about. Go through MSAR and see how many schools have a mission to service. If you dont fit a schools mission, theyll find other 3.6/34 candidates who do. Simple as that.
5) It sounds like you had your class W's somewhere around 2013 and 2014. You applied only one year later.

From a medical school perspective, you can see why you are a "riskier" candidate. Withdrawing twice from semesters the way you did raises real questions and the fact only a year passed between the last set of W's in 2014 and you applying isnt much time. The question with any applicant with previous issues is how does a school know these issues wont pop again down the road? History tends to repeat itself, especially mental health issues in medical school.

The best way to show youve overcome prior issues is a sustained period of productivity. I think what you might have seen this cycle is many dont see one year as enough time to be defind as a "sustained" time period. For any applicant the question is the risk they bring(ie the W's the poor decision making) out weighed by what they bring to the table? What makes you worth the risk? Right now your ECs dont stand out and that gives schools less reason to believe you are compelling enough to take a chance on.

So I would tell you an SMP isnt necessary. As much as anything you need more time to elapse since the W's and to be highly productive in that time. Make yourself more compelling amongst a pool of 10k applicants. Americorps would be a good example of what to look at. The more time elapsed between the W's and the more productivity youve shown since the W's, the better your odds.
 
Last edited:
Hi all,

Update here for reapplication, wondering if anyone has any thoughts to share on how to approach my interviews or school list this cycle. I do have 1 II so far at a top 20 school, most of my secondaries were complete mid-July as I decided to wait to submit my primary until after receiving my new MCAT score. Really hoping I will get in this cycle, but if not, I will be MCAT tutoring + doing Teach for America before trying a 3rd time

The following is what has changed since my last application:

- Near-perfect new MCAT score (old one expired)
- 100+ hours at non-clinical volunteer position
- Worked 250 hours as EMT
- Completed a 2nd summer clinical research internship at CHOP
- More shadowing
- Mulitple TA positions, peer tutoring, MCAT tutoring - 400 hours
- Bio department student award
- Hospital volunteer award
- Finished my last 3 semesters with a 4.0, last 38 credits of BCPM were 3.93
- Final GPA was just under 3.7, BCPM just above 3.5

Thanks!


LizzyM said:
You had 3 interviews out of 8 applications. In all likelihood, you did not cast a wide enough net; I would have recommended at least 14 applications including some away from your local area because in an area away from home you would be providing some geographic diversity to the class just as someone from Nebraska would provide geographic diversity in Philly.

At least 3 schools (and a DO school) found that your application was good enough for interview which, to me, does not suggest that your GPA is a problem. IMHO, a SMP is for those who have a GPA that raises questions about the ability to be academically successful.

Having no volunteerism of a non-clinical nature at the time of your application, was a deficiency. Medicine is about service and many adcoms are looking for those who want to be of service in any way they can. Better late than never. To me, that is where your focus should be.
Click to expand...

Goro said:
Concur with my sage colleague. OP needs a strategically thought out list, not an SMP. Also, work on the interview skills.

IF you get shut out this cyclem, contact Admissions deans and ask for feedback on the rejections.
Click to expand...

GrapesofRath said:
Here are the problematic areas I see.

1) Youll be a reapplicant when you apply again.
2) The W's.
3) The decision making you showed in during the second term of W's taking classes when you clearly shouldnt have been. The 2nd bout of W's isnt a positive and just draws more attention to the issues you had which you dont want.
4) The lack of community service LizzyM was talking about. Go through MSAR and see how many schools have a mission to service. If you dont fit a schools mission, theyll find other 3.6/34 candidates who do. Simple as that.
5) It sounds like you had your class W's somewhere around 2013 and 2014. You applied only one year later.

From a medical school perspective, you can see why you are a "riskier" candidate. Withdrawing twice from semesters the way you did raises real questions and the fact only a year passed between the last set of W's in 2014 and you applying isnt much time. The question with any applicant with previous issues is how does a school know these issues wont pop again down the road? History tends to repeat itself, especially mental health issues in medical school.

The best way to show youve overcome prior issues is a sustained period of productivity. I think what you might have seen this cycle is many dont see one year as enough time to be defind as a "sustained" time period. For any applicant the question is the risk they bring(ie the W's the poor decision making) out weighed by what they bring to the table? What makes you worth the risk? Right now your ECs dont stand out and that gives schools less reason to believe you are compelling enough to take a chance on.

So I would tell you an SMP isnt necessary. As much as anything you need more time to elapse since the W's and to be highly productive in that time. Make yourself more compelling amongst a pool of 10k applicants. Americorps would be a good example of what to look at. The more time elapsed between the W's and the more productivity youve shown since the W's, the better your odds.
Click to expand...
 
Sounds like you have reinvented yourself quite well. I'll bet more IIs will follow. Do let know how things work out, and good luck!
PhillyDoc11 said:
Hi all,

Update here for reapplication, wondering if anyone has any thoughts to share on how to approach my interviews or school list this cycle. I do have 1 II so far at a top 20 school, most of my secondaries were complete mid-July as I decided to wait to submit my primary until after receiving my new MCAT score. Really hoping I will get in this cycle, but if not, I will be MCAT tutoring + doing Teach for America before trying a 3rd time

The following is what has changed since my last application:

- Near-perfect new MCAT score (old one expired)
- 100+ hours at non-clinical volunteer position
- Worked 250 hours as EMT
- Completed a 2nd summer clinical research internship at CHOP
- More shadowing
- Mulitple TA positions, peer tutoring, MCAT tutoring - 400 hours
- Bio department student award
- Hospital volunteer award
- Finished my last 3 semesters with a 4.0, last 38 credits of BCPM were 3.93
- Final GPA was just under 3.7, BCPM just above 3.5

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
What a success story! im curious too, did you apply in June 2016?
 
PhillyDoc11 said:
Hi all,

Update here for reapplication, wondering if anyone has any thoughts to share on how to approach my interviews or school list this cycle. I do have 1 II so far at a top 20 school, most of my secondaries were complete mid-July as I decided to wait to submit my primary until after receiving my new MCAT score. Really hoping I will get in this cycle, but if not, I will be MCAT tutoring + doing Teach for America before trying a 3rd time

The following is what has changed since my last application:

- Near-perfect new MCAT score (old one expired)
- 100+ hours at non-clinical volunteer position
- Worked 250 hours as EMT
- Completed a 2nd summer clinical research internship at CHOP
- More shadowing
- Mulitple TA positions, peer tutoring, MCAT tutoring - 400 hours
- Bio department student award
- Hospital volunteer award
- Finished my last 3 semesters with a 4.0, last 38 credits of BCPM were 3.93
- Final GPA was just under 3.7, BCPM just above 3.5

Thanks!
Click to expand...

omg...how did you study!?
 
Vladimir7 said:
What a success story! im curious too, did you apply in June 2016?
Click to expand...

Yes, I applied last cycle and am reapplying this cycle

GCS-15 said:
omg...how did you study!?
Click to expand...

I did a lot of research on the new test before I started studying and then put in a lot of meaningful hours. Basically any time I wasn't working/in class/volunteering. I was lucky that my experience with MCAT style questions and reasoning stayed with me from the first time I took it so I mostly focused on learning the content better this time around
 
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