So I left...

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masterofmonkeys

Angy Old Man
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Said I'd make a post when I got around to it. I'm currently procrastinating against an article deadline so I figured this would be a good time lol.

What led me to leave was a combination of a serious medical issue, unsupportive training environment, and personality conflict with our PD.

Let me say, first off, that I did not handle my part at all well, and made lots of mistakes along the way. That said, my program could be directly antagonistic to an extreme degree.

As an intern, I didn't have the easiest start. 5 days into my first psych block, my attending took a month vacation. I was left with a series of random attendings covering who would come in, sign the notes, and leave. Chief wasn't any better. As my 'team' didn't have an attending, I got the most admits/discharges, the most pain in the butt patients, etc. It was hell. I routinely violated work hours, routinely took new patients post-call, and routinely broke the 30h rule. I fell behind on d/c summaries and got raked over the coals for it. PD wasn't interested in the hostile work environment or lack of support, didn't care that I was doing my best (coming in on off days to do d/c summaries), or that I had violated work hours consistently. In fact, that last point was raised as a lack of 'professionalism' on my part.

And at this point my back had deteriorated as I was unable to maintain my pretty time-consuming rehab adn recovery protocol throughout this period of my training. Not only that but I wasn't able to make appointments with my doctor due to the clinical demands and lack of cross-coverage, or make PT visits with any regularity. Not to downplay my own role in this, I find it difficult to ask for help or to admit to physical weakness. Because ultimately sheer bloody-mindedness is how I got through my physical disability to the extent that I had.

Pediatrics was even tougher in a lot of ways. While I loved working with the kids and never actually violated hours, my back had gotten even worse and I could barely think straight. On several occasions I actually passed out from the pain and was only brought back to consciousness by smacking into a wall as I fell over. Turns out that people with spinal stenosis at a high level don't stand so well for hours on end (attending rounds were a 3-5 hour ordeal). Asking for sit-down rounds was an exercise in futility. I even ran into resistance on wearing shoes that made standing more tolerable (which do admittedly look goofy). 'Go to the ADA office or take a medical leave of absence!' was the response I got. Hard to go to the ADA office when you--can't get cross-cover support!

My clinical performance was godawful. I didn't miss diagnoses or raise stupid treatment ideas, but I'd forget to put in orders and my h&ps were not exactly exemplary. I was--not doing well.

Turned it around the next 12 months, got great reviews from everyone involved, despite continued hell. Took more short-call on my medicine months than any other intern. At the VA I was the only resident for a full week and a half, and spent 120h one of those weeks at the hospital. Started getting my back under control, etc. Yet despite consistently 'superior' evals from my evaluators, my PD continued to insist that my performance was unsatisfactory, and continued to list issues from my first 6 months that hadn't come up again.

Only one problem, couldn't afford to take Step 3 by December of my 2nd year. Told the program in advance, and they said 'fine but it's still program policy that you go on probation for that'. I said, 'that's fine, I understand the rules'. And walk into a four page letter detailing any negative comment about me ever made but written as if they were all consistent issues.

'Has issues with support staff'. I had one negative eval from support staff from my first three months, but at that point had two certificates from Childrens' nurses, numerous positive evals, and the nights charge nurse had actually written an unsolicited letter to my supervisor and PD telling them that I was one of the best and most responsive residents they'd ever worked with.

'Doesn't finish documentation on time.' Hadn't had an issue since the first part of my intern year as I mentioned earlier.

'Frequently late.' Again, not an issue since my intern year with one exception--and related to my medical issue.

The list went on and on and basically implied that I was a corss between the spawn of satan and Gomer Pyle. And ran directly counter to what my evals were reading from my supervisors, who not only gave me good numerical evals but also specifically mentioned my dedication to patients, medical knowledge, and ability to work well with support staff. 'Above and beyond' appeared a number of times independently. Not to mention that at this point, I'd picked up an award for my PRITE performance, published two abstracts, was working on a clinical trial at a very involved level, and had twice gotten an honorable mention for medical student teaching.

I pretty much lost my crap after that and checked out. Up through then the whole atmosphere, not just my PD, had been so unsupportive that I felt like I had nowhere to turn. I'd spoken to lawyers, several attendings who empathized but couldn't tell me to do anything but 'push through it', the ombudsman, head of GME, and the head of the housestaff association with nothing in the way of practical change to be made. Overall, the environment was 'service first' and if you happened to get some training it was because that individual attending cared. Our institution seemed to have little use for actually emphasizing training or mentorship. I was busting my butt while I was in the hospital--still without recognition from my PD--but hadn't even applied for Step 3 until the last possible moment I could.

I finally found some supportive attendings with some clout, but by then I was too angry, too burned out, and too apathetic. It was affecting my medical health and my patient care. So. I left.

I've been burned out and could probably be diagnosed with PTSD since my first rotation at the program I was at. I'm a naturally oppositional person and that was more than triggered by the way my PD dealt with me. It was like throwing oil on a naked flame. At the same time, you can only tolerate so much before you throw in the towel.

I've always wanted to be a therapist, and I'll go back to training eventually. But for right now, I'm waiting on my full license, will moonlight at urgent care centers and what not, and will write freelance articles until I can catch my breath and recover.

P.S. No, I'm not going to name my institution. Feel free to PM me. I cleared out my inbox.
P.P.S. Resigning was my first vacation in over 10 months. Due to being placed on an understaffed rotation late in the year and after everyone else had requested vacation.
 
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I was left with a series of random attendings covering who would come in, sign the notes, and leave.

A strong sign of lack of appropriate guidance, listen, if I were an attending, yes I would be lax with some oversight but I'd like to think I'd only do that if I knew the resident had experience. E.g. I'm not going to go over a progress note with a fine-tooth comb from a PGY-IV that has years of good clinical experience and competent work. By then, several of them are even better than many attendings.

When residents are new, in IM, the senior residents and attendings usually don't let them do anything by themselves, and with good reason, one mistake and the patient could be dead. In psychiatry, things usually aren't so severe, and as a result, several bad psychiatrists allow themselves to be reckless enough to not give fresh new residents appropriate guidance.

I'd love to say that where I did residency, every attending was good. No. Some did the above---barely reviewed anything, even on cases that were not safe. As a resident I brought this up to the senior residents and nothing happened. While I was a chief, I brought this up to the PD, and she actually got ticked off at me for doing so. The only person that addressed that issue in a manner that I thought was honest was one of the dept chairs (I worked at two places, thus the program was between 2 chairs), and I was just flatly told that it's hard to replace attendings and some of them blew but that was the best they could do.

While the above was certainly not a good reason, at least it was honest, and it was a heck of a lot more appropriate than the PD blowing up in anger at me for a problem that was ongoing, and I was able to use the information to do something that pushed things forward. I started a policy where if attendings didn't give good supervision, they would go lower on the totem pole in terms of being assigned a resident for call because there weren't enough spots for every night to have a resident. Let's just that that the attendings that blew were starting to get ticked at me because they didn't get a resident, and my dept chair actually fully defended me because we both knew what was up with it. I didn't give a damn they were ticked because the majority of the attendings were good and they knew who the bad ones were and why they were ticked.

Man, sorry you went though this bad experience. I hope you get into a better program, and that leaving the first program will not stain your record.
 
God, our jobs and are training suck so much sometimes. No wonder so many physicians are angry and bitter. This highlights the importance of picking the right place to train, but figuring that out isn't so easy.

I remember interviewing at one place (actually my medical school) where the chief shared that she got really behind on notes one year due to lots of personal issues that hit all at once. The program was really supportive of her, helped her get back on track, continued to support her and picked her as chief. Not necessarily the most prestigious program or in the best area, but jeez, that's a great sign. If only all programs were that way.

Anyway, take care of yourself. Thanks for sharing your story, and I hope everything goes OK with getting back into the field in the future.
 
Wow. I noticed that you had posted some stuff about being unhappy there but didn't realize it was this bad. It's a shame that things turned out this way.
I can understand being fed up with residency after an experience like this, but are you sure you want ot wait to try to get into a different place? I would be concerned that other programs might think that the year off was not by choice and it might make it harder to get back in later. Plus I guess I would think that the sympathetic attendings might be more willing to pull some strings for you now while the whole thing is fresh in their minds. I definitely hope that you are able to get into a program that's better suited for you.
 
As an applicant to psych, I definitely appreciate your honesty for sharing your story. In retrospect, were there warning signs when you interviewed there? Were your co-residents aware of your problems and were they helpful/empathetic?
 
As an applicant to psych, I definitely appreciate your honesty for sharing your story. In retrospect, were there warning signs when you interviewed there? Were your co-residents aware of your problems and were they helpful/empathetic?

One thing that left a sour taste in my mouth was that the residents that I chatted with at my interview dinner were very friendly, very engaging, a lot of fun in general. And appeared quite candid. Except when I asked if there were any issues with the sites, if attendings/admin were supportive, etc, they all flat out denied anything.

And then when i show up for intern year, that's when they let their true opinions out...

My co-residents were awesome. I love my classmates and I'm still tight with them. Most of the reason I decided to stay in this city until I move on to another program is the friendships I've forged. The other is that I'd sooner shoot myself than move back in with my parents lol.

I should note that several of the attendings I worked with were incredibly helpful (and still are since my separation from the program). But I didn't meet them and/or engage with them until the start of my 3rd year. And by then, I was pretty out of it.
 
Wow. I noticed that you had posted some stuff about being unhappy there but didn't realize it was this bad. It's a shame that things turned out this way.
I can understand being fed up with residency after an experience like this, but are you sure you want ot wait to try to get into a different place? I would be concerned that other programs might think that the year off was not by choice and it might make it harder to get back in later. Plus I guess I would think that the sympathetic attendings might be more willing to pull some strings for you now while the whole thing is fresh in their minds. I definitely hope that you are able to get into a program that's better suited for you.

I think waiting is the right choice. First, so that I can get on top of my back issues. It's doing better but not having to spend all day in horrible shoes doing things that are bad for my back will be good for me and accelerate my progress in rehab. I'm getting to the point where there are whole days I go without a single rib dislocating.

Second, so that I can un-burn-out. I'm not joking when I say I've spent the last two years completely, utterly, burnt out. Honestly, the only reason I was able to stick with it so long was how much I love my patients and doing therapy. I'm alive when I do that, but as soon as the patient's gone, I just feel dead to the world. Don't want to read, don't want to do notes, don't want to do anything.

The attendings I've been talking to (and continue to communicate with) lean that way as well.
 
So sorry you had to go through this. It seems like you have really thought this through. I hope your future residency program can give you the support you need and the recognition that you deserve. Good luck on your next endeavor and hope you get the back problem under control...stress can really exacerbate back pain...I know.
 
I think waiting is the right choice. First, so that I can get on top of my back issues. It's doing better but not having to spend all day in horrible shoes doing things that are bad for my back will be good for me and accelerate my progress in rehab. I'm getting to the point where there are whole days I go without a single rib dislocating.

Second, so that I can un-burn-out. I'm not joking when I say I've spent the last two years completely, utterly, burnt out. Honestly, the only reason I was able to stick with it so long was how much I love my patients and doing therapy. I'm alive when I do that, but as soon as the patient's gone, I just feel dead to the world. Don't want to read, don't want to do notes, don't want to do anything.

The attendings I've been talking to (and continue to communicate with) lean that way as well.

I can see your reasoning and it does sound like you probably have a lot of good qualities that will allow you to find a good residency. Have you found it difficult to find places that are willing to hire people who haven't completed residency yet? According to what people had posted in another recent thread about job options after several years of residency, it seems like those of us in psych have it better than a lot of other specialties in trying to find places that will hire people that haven't finished residency yet.
As we all know, even the best residency has its problems, but it does sound like you had more than your share of grief at this program. I hope that you will keep us updated on how things are going for you.
 
A buddy of mine was kicked out of a family practice residency that was malignant and clearly abusing residents. He was working 100+ hours a week and it wasn't before the regulations that forced 80 hour maximums. He knew the rules, told the program to stop making him work over the max, and he got canned.

He went into psychiatry and loved it.

So here's my point and you might already know it. If someone is removed from a residency, it can be a black-mark on that person. Several PDs are hesitant to take someone who was kicked out. I've know people kicked out and they deserved it, but I've also know good people get kicked out because, ironically, they were good and stood on principle on an issue, like my friend. The biggest one that stood out in my mind was a guy who saw an attending verbally abusing a medstudent, and the guy told the attending to lay off. That attending went in a mission to get that guy kicked out of medschool, and unfortunately he got kicked out. That guy eventually got into another program, became a chief was one of the best residents the program ever had.

When he got into a program, he was lucky to have done so. Do what you can to get back into a program. I hope your experience hasn't black-marked you.
 
Don't you think guys it's both parties kinda thing?
How many people left this program?
Has anybody here violated hours? found himself being alone in tough situation? Has been treated unfair or been told by senior "Yah, internship sucks, swallow it."
 
Rena, as I said in my post, I did not handle my part in this whole debacle well at all. I hope I made that pretty clear.
 
Said I'd make a post when I got around to it. I'm currently procrastinating against an article deadline so I figured this would be a good time lol.

What led me to leave was a combination of a serious medical issue, unsupportive training environment, and personality conflict with our PD.

Wow. MasterofMonkeys, I am sorry for you. I don't check SDN that often anymore but was surprised to see this. Sounds like a terrible situation with an unsupportive institution/PD and personal problems, especially your back. One of my good friends essentially had a breakdown and dropped out of another psych residency, and that person is much happier now. (Going into teaching, although overqualified with an MD.) There are a lot of ways to be happy outside of medicine... Come back to another residency or not, hopefully you can get your back fixed up and get over the PTSD of intern year. Congrats on making the decision to leave.
 
wow.

dude i have been reading your posts for years now so pretty shocked. you come across as a very intelligent, very caring individual. your story sucks and i'm sorry you had to go through it. lesson to all you guys/ gals applying, psych at major university hospitals is not a walk in the park. it's not surgery hours, but it's not cake walk either.

i would 100% try to get back into residency. only you know yourself physically and mentally and if you feel you need that time then so be it, but i do think taking time off might hurt you when applying to another residency program.

good luck my man.
 
Agreed. I have also enjoyed reading your posts and want to send you my heartfelt condolences. Residency is chock-full-of nuts and I really believe, that if it were not for your back pain, you would have been able to meditate more on the big picture plus absurdity factors and sail through. Chronic pain in addition to all the bs is.... an awful recipe for sure.
 
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