So my degree is worthless?

[Rogue42]

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Man, it feels like everyday I get on this site, and more and more people are discussing the expansion of DO schools. I understand that it is a problem, but will my degree really be worthless or slowly becoming obsolete come 2023 when I graduate or is this jus the generalized "sky is falling" approach that SDN users take.

I mean, I came to a DO school because I know many DOs and the MD I worked for recommended it to me as an option for school. I did a lot of research in undergrad to ensure that this was a viable option, and this route gave me the opportunity to be a physician. But come 2023, if my degree is obsolete, then my ability to pay back my debt is zero.

If this is really going to be the case, shouldn't I just leave now? Shouldn't we all just leave now?

 

[Hippocrates II]

SDN is a breeding ground of neurotic individuals with little to no real world experience who read far too much into things. Work hard, do what you need to do, you'll be fine.

 

[paradoxic_toxic]

... or is this jus the generalized "sky is falling" approach that SDN users take?

It's this. Stay off SDN for the sake of your mental health.

 

[ciestar]

This is the biggest sky is falling take on this I’ve seen yet.

This won’t happen.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I don't think anybody on SDN ever said that the DO degree will be worthless. The expansion will make it harder to get into residency if there's no residency exansion as well, but once you're in residency, you have nothing to worry about. Word of advice though, stay off SDN if you're having trouble fully understanding what is being discussed on it. It will be better for your mental health.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Man, it feels like everyday I get on this site, and more and more people are discussing the expansion of DO schools. I understand that it is a problem, but will my degree really be worthless or slowly becoming obsolete come 2023 when I graduate or is this jus the generalized "sky is falling" approach that SDN users take.

I mean, I came to a DO school because I know many DOs and the MD I worked for recommended it to me as an option for school. I did a lot of research in undergrad to ensure that this was a viable option, and this route gave me the opportunity to be a physician. But come 2023, if my degree is obsolete, then my ability to pay back my debt is zero.

If this is really going to be the case, shouldn't I just leave now? Shouldn't we all just leave now?

No, your degree is not obsolete on its own. Just don’t fail anything and be prepared for a really tough match. If you pass everything you should, you will match still in something if you apply appropriately.

I would not advise someone to drop out who has already started unless they failed multiple classes, in which case your school will probably make that decision for you. You will be a physician if you complete this course, and don’t fail.

I am admittedly more bearish on DO expansion than some posters, but even 10 years from now I expect the large majority of senor DO students to match who make it.

 

[findoc]

Depends on your career objectives. Do you want to go for a competitive specialty? If so, then you might be fighting an uphill battle, but it certainly doesn't mean you can't attain it. If you score well on the COMLEX and USMLE, then things will fall into place.

Think about it. With more spots open, then at the margin worse and worse students are being admitted to med school. That's who you're competing with. All you have to do is score better than them.

 

[Sardonix]

I have had several attendings say the following: "Look, being a physician is not ending. It is not dying. It is changing. Whether you can deal with that change is largely up to you."

Naturally there are some things that are out of your control. But if I have to deal with one more privileged old attending who whines about "the good old days" and how they would never re-enter medicine while simultaneously pulling in a cool $300-400,000 a year I swear I will... continue to do nothing other other than post and whine about it.

 

[Whysoez]

At this point MD expansion will threaten DO grads more than DO expansion IMO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

At this point MD expansion will threaten DO grads more than DO expansion IMO.

No.

 

[Goro]

Man, it feels like everyday I get on this site, and more and more people are discussing the expansion of DO schools. I understand that it is a problem, but will my degree really be worthless or slowly becoming obsolete come 2023 when I graduate or is this jus the generalized "sky is falling" approach that SDN users take.

I mean, I came to a DO school because I know many DOs and the MD I worked for recommended it to me as an option for school. I did a lot of research in undergrad to ensure that this was a viable option, and this route gave me the opportunity to be a physician. But come 2023, if my degree is obsolete, then my ability to pay back my debt is zero.

If this is really going to be the case, shouldn't I just leave now? Shouldn't we all just leave now?

There are still more residency slots than there are bodies to fill them, and even by 2023.

So NO, your degree is not worthless. We're not Pharmacy or Law.

Also keep in mind that some 25% of all docs, being Baby Boomers, will be dying off or retiring over the next decade.
TLDR, sky is not falling.

 

[slowthai]

At this point MD expansion will threaten DO grads more than DO expansion IMO.

Just not even close, bro. DO expansion is off the charts crazy, like a malignancy in action.

 

[Ludwig2000]

Shouldn’t we all just leave now?

Shouldn’t we all just leave... SDN? Yeah for sure. But we can’t stop

 

[Whysoez]

Shouldn’t we all just leave... SDN? Yeah for sure. But we can’t stop

I have to choose either this or Reddit, and I would pick SDN over Reddit any day lol.

 

[ciestar]

I have to choose either this or Reddit, and I would pick SDN over Reddit any day lol.

I spend entirely too much time on reddit on really stupid subs lol

 

[Whysoez]

I spend entirely too much time on reddit on really stupid subs lol

Pre-med sub-reddit in particular though, for everything else (Cat vids, memes, publicfreakouts, etc.) I would prefer reddit over SDN.

 

[ciestar]

Pre-med sub-reddit in particular though, for everything else (Cat vids, memes, publicfreakouts, etc.) I would prefer reddit over SDN.

I ignore premed on there hahah

 

[slowthai]

I ignore premed on there hahah

I ignore premeds everywhere

 

[ciestar]

I ignore premeds everywhere

That too.

 

[alprazoslam]

I ignore premeds everywhere

most premeds I know are going to Harvard for dermatology with 485 MCAT lol

 

[Ho0v-man]

most premeds I know are going to Harvard for dermatology with 485 MCAT lol

“Once they see me in the interview, I know I’ll win them over!”

 

[deleted407021]

Don’t let the gaggle of terminally online people with unmanaged GAD tell you anything about your career prospects. Medicine will continue to be a fantastic career choice in so many ways for years to come and your hard work will largely be rewarded.

 

[alprazoslam]

“Once they see me in the interview, I know I’ll win them over!”

With their volunteering hours they made up

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Yeah its worthless, you should probably just drop out now.

 

[Scrubs101]

most premeds I know are going to Harvard for dermatology with 485 MCAT lol

You know premeds that are thinking about lifestyle specialties?

Almost every premed i know wants to do uber mega trauma neurovascular cardiothoracic oncology sports surgery at Princeton hospital in seattle

 

[risus_sardonicus]

most premeds I know are going to Harvard for dermatology with 485 MCAT lol

I hope you never have the unfortunate experience of stumbling across one of the premed YouTube accounts. The cringe, stupidity, unrealistic hopes are at an all time high.


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[Sardonix]

I hope you never have the unfortunate experience of stumbling across one of the premed YouTube accounts. The cringe, stupidity, unrealistic hopes are at an all time high.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Nice username.

 

[alprazoslam]

I hope you never have the unfortunate experience of stumbling across one of the premed YouTube accounts. The cringe, stupidity, unrealistic hopes are at an all time high.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

You know premeds that are thinking about lifestyle specialties?

Almost every premed i know wants to do uber mega trauma neurovascular cardiothoracic oncology sports surgery at Princeton hospital in seattle

thats why I never watch medical shows lawl

 

[deleted831695]

There’s already enough stress and anxiety getting through medical school (preclinicals, boards, rotations, shelves, auditions, interviews). Add that to everything that comes with intern year and rest of residency. Worrying about the future beyond that is...just too much.

None of us can predict medicine in 10/20/30 years (when we retire) considering more graduates (saturated markets), midlevels, AI, potential single-payer, etc. We can’t even predict what happens tomorrow in our own lives.

That being said, AAMC in 2019 projected an expected shortage of 121,900 (45% PC, 55% specialists) physicians by 2030. Over a quarter of docs in each state are retiring. If medicine starts becoming like law, I am sure actions will be taken then.

My plan is to pass boards, eventually match, do residency, and then find an open job in the best place I can settle down and build up a patient base there. If **** hits the fan in a decade, by that point, I’ll have been an attending for 4-5 years and be settled in my community.

 

[Sardonix]

There’s already enough stress and anxiety getting through medical school (preclinicals, boards, rotations, shelves, auditions, interviews). Add that to everything that comes with intern year and rest of residency. Worrying about the future beyond that is...just too much.

None of us can predict medicine in 10/20/30 years (when we retire) considering more graduates (saturated markets), midlevels, AI, potential single-payer, etc. We can’t even predict what happens tomorrow in our own lives.

That being said, AAMC in 2019 projected an expected shortage of 121,900 (45% PC, 55% specialists) physicians by 2030. Over a quarter of docs in each state are retiring. If medicine starts becoming like law, I am sure actions will be taken then.

My plan is to pass boards, eventually match, do residency, and then find an open job in the best place I can settle down and build up a patient base there. If **** hits the fan in a decade, by that point, I’ll have been an attending for 4-5 years and be settled in my community.

You must be new here. We prefer to argue semantics and enable unnecessary neuroticism. Get out with that mindset.

 

[KeikoTanaka]

It takes 7-8 years just to get through to be an attending physician. Even if 100 new schools open next year, they won't be in the market for another 9 years. If you graduate in 2023, you'd enter a market that isn't saturated and will offer many opportunities. Besides, with a physician shortage of ~20,000 by 2030 or w/e, we need more physicians. Your degree isn't worthless. This is so exaggerated and over-dramatic. Your degree gets you just the same opportunity as MD, so if our degree is worthless, so is theirs. Yes, it's 'harder' for us, but the ticket (your DO degree) can theoretically land you in the same spot. Salaries have only risen over the years. Relax.

 

[libertyyne]

Will your degree be worthless?
No.
Will your degree be worth less?
Yes.

 

[Roxas]

Still worth more than any degree in the social sciences.

 

[iamdamiancray]

Will your degree be worthless?
No.
Will your degree be worth less?
Yes.

4 years of medical school and 3-7 years of specialized medical training to end up having people give you this attitude about your academics b/c it’s not MD? There are dang 29 registered Western medical degrees. DO and MD are 2 in the 29. What kinda crap is this. Do you have no idea the hard-work one has to put to get a DO degree? I choose DO cuz my whole family is DO. I had the option to go MD in the SLU SOM. Have respect for others.


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[libertyyne]

4 years of medical school and 3-7 years of specialized medical training to end up having people give you this attitude about your academics b/c it’s not MD? There are dang 29 registered Western medical degrees. DO and MD are 2 in the 29. What kinda crap is this. Do you have no idea the hard-work one has to put to get a DO degree? I choose DO cuz my whole family is DO. I had the option to go MD in the SLU SOM. Have respect for others.


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Calm down. The point was that all medical degrees will be devalued if there are more graduates.
When there is a glut of schools and graduates usually the graduates that suffer the most are the lower ranked schools.
It happened in law, pharm, b school and will likely happen in medicine.
Making a point does not mean I am not respecting DOs.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Will your degree be worthless?
No.
Will your degree be worth less?
Yes.

It will be worth less during the residency application for all specialties, and IM fellowships.

Once you’re at the attending level, nobody cares.

So the good news is that if you’re in the class of 2020 and 2021, you won’t feel the burn. For subsequent classes, the oven kitchen heat will be raised by 1 degree C for each subsequent year.

 

[Xe13phys]

Delete thread

 

[deleted831695]

It will be worth less during the residency application for all specialties, and IM fellowships.

Once you’re at the attending level, nobody cares.

So the good news is that if you’re in the class of 2020 and 2021, you won’t feel the burn. For subsequent classes, the oven kitchen heat will be raised by 1 degree C for each subsequent year.

2022 should be good, no? 2 years of merger data. I'm betting this year's NBOME will compensate for that stupid af COMLEX average drop that 2021 had to face for the new exam.

 

[Epilepsy365]

2022 should be good, no? 2 years of merger data. I'm betting this year's NBOME will compensate for that stupid af COMLEX average drop that 2021 had to face for the new exam.

Bust your behind like you’re gunning for ortho and pray to the spirit of AT Stills.

You mess up by going DO, but that’s crying over spilled milk. Got to make lemonade out of lemons and set your expectations to community IM if things don’t work out.

 

[deleted831695]

Bust your behind like you’re gunning for ortho and pray to the spirit of AT Stills.

The path to becoming to a bone wizard is arduous.

I will now recite the osteopathic tenets in solemnity.

You mess up by going DO, but that’s crying over spilled milk.

Didn't mess up there fam. Could have gone out-of-state MD (and sold my soul in $$$), but family/home was more important. Helps my state is insanely DO-friendly.

Got to make lemonade out of lemons and set your expectations to community IM if things don’t work out.

That's all right, community IM still can hit many fellowships.

 

[iamdamiancray]

Guys, whatever you say-- Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine is looking LITT. Opening from next year most likely. British buildings in America, haha. BTW, I wonder what Buck Parker the St. Mathhew's Caribbean Grad who thinks he is better respected than the DOs cuz he has an SMU MD (LOL) would think of this fancy medical school opening on one of the few states that he is permitted to work in the United States (Utah):

 

[Sardonix]

The path to becoming to a bone wizard is arduous.

I will now recite the osteopathic tenets in solemnity.

Didn't mess up there fam. Could have gone out-of-state MD (and sold my soul in $$$), but family/home was more important. Helps my state is insanely DO-friendly.

That's all right, community IM still can hit many fellowships.

I mentioned this like a week ago, but you're definitely right there. Michigan is one of the few places I've been where they have "DO operated" hospitals and where there are just as many, if not more, DOs than MDs.

 

[findoc]

Yeah Michigan State is one of the better DO schools, right?

If you look at the residency match data, then the average Step 1 scores between MDs and DOs don't seem to be that different. Sure, DOs may not be even looked at by the very top programs, but it doesn't mean you can't be generally competitive. The lack of matches to competitive specialties is probably not the DO degree itself, it is probably that the average student at a DO school is lower quality (GPA, MCAT, etc.) and end up scoring lower on boards. It is up to you to make yourself high quality.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Yeah Michigan State is one of the better DO schools, right?

If you look at the residency match data, then the average Step 1 scores between MDs and DOs don't seem to be that different. Sure, DOs may not be even looked at by the very top programs, but it doesn't mean you can't be generally competitive. The lack of matches to competitive specialties is probably not the DO degree itself, it is probably that the average student at a DO school is lower quality (GPA, MCAT, etc.) and end up scoring lower on boards. It is up to you to make yourself high quality.

Wrong on all accounts. MDs with similar application to me are def getting broader and diverse IIs than me. I am not hating or bitter.

But this nonsense needs to stop. You will always be considered the silver standard as a DO vs the gold standard as a MD in residency application across ALL Specialties, IM fellowships, and specific job search in competitive geographic areas. That’s life and it needs to be told to all incoming DOs.

 

[deleted898021]

Wrong on all accounts. MDs with similar application to me are def getting broader and diverse IIs than me. I am not hating or bitter.

But this nonsense needs to stop. You will always be considered the silver standard as a DO vs the gold standard as a MD in residency application across ALL Specialties, IM fellowships, and specific job search in competitive geographic areas. That’s life and it needs to be told to all incoming DOs.

Never ever heard the last part about DO's not being able to find jobs in competitive locations, plenty of DO's on the coasts, chicago and miami, or DO's having issues matching top tier fellowships- plenty of DO's at Hopkins, CC, Mayo, and even Harvard for fellowships, plus the former DO programs that are obviously more DO friendly and some are excellent places to train, some of our alumni have ranked them over "higher ranked" traditional MD programs across all specialties. Yes MD's get broader II's but you have the former DO programs that aren't taking the MD's either and quite a few of those are good programs.

 

[Alkaidius]

Guys, whatever you say-- Noorda College of Osteopathic Medicine is looking LITT. Opening from next year most likely. British buildings in America, haha. BTW, I wonder what Buck Parker the St. Mathhew's Caribbean Grad who thinks he is better respected than the DOs cuz he has an SMU MD (LOL) would think of this fancy medical school opening on one of the few states that he is permitted to work in the United States (Utah):

I don’t care how fancy the building, at some point you’re going to look at it and get nauseous lol. Too much stress and anxiety gets associated with it. It’s just good ol’ fashioned classical conditioning at its finest.

 

[Epilepsy365]

Never ever heard the last part about DO's not being able to find jobs in competitive locations, plenty of DO's on the coasts, chicago and miami, or DO's having issues matching top tier fellowships- plenty of DO's at Hopkins, CC, Mayo, and even Harvard for fellowships, plus the former DO programs that are obviously more DO friendly and some are excellent places to train, some of our alumni have ranked them over "higher ranked" traditional programs across all specialties. Yes MD's get broader II's but you have the former DO programs that aren't taking the MD's either and quite a few of those are good programs.

There are certain Anesthesia groups in Seattle, San Diego, and Dallas that literally said MDs ONLY. This information came from my DO Anesthesia preceptor a year ago.

But, if you do go to a DO school, chances are that you're somewhat geographic flexible in term of working ~ 2h drive away from a metropolitan area. But, for those DO kids that have to work in places like SF, NYC, Seattle, or San Diego, you better be open towards working in less hip hop areas.

 

[findoc]

There are certain Anesthesia groups in Seattle, San Diego, and Dallas that literally said MDs ONLY. This information came from my DO Anesthesia preceptor a year ago.

Any more evidence? That's just an anecdote. I've asked every doc I've met about MD vs DO and all have said they don't even think about it, it's a non-issue. So at worst maybe I need to score 5 points higher on step 1. Who cares?

 

[Epilepsy365]

Any more evidence? That's just an anecdote. I've asked every doc I've met about MD vs DO and all have said they don't even think about it, it's a non-issue. So at worst maybe I need to score 5 points higher on step 1. Who cares?

I don't need to prove anything to a premed bc your opinion is already made. I'm only here to reveal the challenging realities for those who are hellbent on certain practice settings in certain locations.

 

[deleted978973]

There are certain Anesthesia groups in Seattle, San Diego, and Dallas that literally said MDs ONLY. This information came from my DO Anesthesia preceptor a year ago.

But, if you do go to a DO school, chances are that you're somewhat geographic flexible in term of working ~ 2h drive away from a metropolitan area. But, for those DO kids that have to work in places like SF, NYC, Seattle, or San Diego, you better be open towards working in less hip hop areas.

So do residency in the Midwest then move to the coasts. Work somewhere literally 20 minutes outside of a more 'hip hop' area with no difference. Who cares? Prestige is the absolute dumbest thing you can pursue in life.