So my OB resident has a septum nose ring...

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flightnurse2MD

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On my 3rd year OB clerkship and I work with a senior resident who wears a 10-guage septum nose ring at work. I got in a heated argument with another classmate when we discussed the do's and don'ts of looking professional. I may be biased from prior military service, but I feel there should be a certain image medical professionals are held to. He thinks otherwise and called me a fascist for suppressing one's individuality. I am all about individuality, but come on, we are healthcare providers in a hospital- not a bunch a college kids flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant. Am I wrong?

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On my 3rd year OB clerkship and I work with a senior resident who wears a 10-guage septum nose ring at work. I got in a heated argument with another classmate when we discussed the do's and don'ts of looking professional. I may be biased from prior military service, but I feel there should be a certain image medical professionals are held to. He thinks otherwise and called me a fascist for suppressing one's individuality. I am all about individuality, but come on, we are healthcare providers in a hospital- not a bunch a college kids flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant. Am I wrong?
No, you are not!
 
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I hope for your sake the resident in question doesn't read SDN, because your post is fairly detailed regarding their appearance and your background/actions/location.

I think it kind of depends on the rest of their look... if someone has dirty hair, sloppy facial hair, wrinkled clothes... a nose piercing can add to the impression that they lack professionalism. But if they are otherwise clean cut, have a decent attitude, etc, I would get the impression that the program is one that prioritizes substance over appearance.

I think the overall appearance is important because if one piercing is unacceptable, which others are unacceptable? lip/eyebrow/tongue? 10 on each ear? tattoos, where and of what? it is important that everyone knows where the line is.
 
You're not a fascist. The nose ring wearer is a tool. Your friend who calls you a fascist is steeped in lefty hyper-agreeability. And neither matters in this case, except as theoretical discussion.

The medical hierarchy enforces notions of "professionalism" downwards. You're unprofessional if your boss says you are. Not the other way around. Which begs the question of what unprofessional means..... but don't worry about it... all that you need to know is that someone over you can wield it to F you. When you're an attending you can wield it to F others.

So. It's a F tool. And, your's is impotent.

Your friend and you could talk all day. And never agree on your conscientiousness vs their openness.
 
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I think the biggest issue here is your classmate who is using words that they clearly don't know the meaning of
 
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I'm all for self expression, but wear that crap outside of the hospital. You never know what patient will be uncomfortable with your piercings (besides ears) or tats. Medicine is a profession in which we have to sacrifice stuff all the time. I don't think it's too much to ask to just leave the piercing out while at work.
 
I'm all for self expression, but wear that crap outside of the hospital. You never know what patient will be uncomfortable with your piercings (besides ears) or tats. Medicine is a profession in which we have to sacrifice stuff all the time. I don't think it's too much to ask to just leave the piercing out while at work.
At least you can hide tattoos under your white coat. I have a full chest and half sleeve visible in scrubs but they cover up nicely in a button up.
 
I'm all for self expression, but wear that crap outside of the hospital. You never know what patient will be uncomfortable with your piercings (besides ears) or tats. Medicine is a profession in which we have to sacrifice stuff all the time. I don't think it's too much to ask to just leave the piercing out while at work.
you lump tattoos in with that. I can't exactly leave those at home, and they're not coverable in every situation. I don't disagree with you about the septum ring...I think that's a bit much...but...you bring up an interesting point with the tattoos.
 
On my 3rd year OB clerkship and I work with a senior resident who wears a 10-guage septum nose ring at work. I got in a heated argument with another classmate when we discussed the do's and don'ts of looking professional. I may be biased from prior military service, but I feel there should be a certain image medical professionals are held to. He thinks otherwise and called me a fascist for suppressing one's individuality. I am all about individuality, but come on, we are healthcare providers in a hospital- not a bunch a college kids flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant. Am I wrong?

There are lots and lots of studies that show that, basically, people are more likely to trust a traditionally dressed physician who acts in a certain way. Kakhis+collared shirt+white coat > scrubs > anything else. No piercings > piercings. No tattoos > tattoos. Smiling > not smiling. Sitting in the room > standing in the room. So in that sense you are right: physicians do best on satisfaction surveys when they look like a 1950s stereotype of a physician.

That does not, however, mean that you always have to do every single thing that makes your patients most likely to trust and like you. You have worked hard enough to earn some discretion about how you look and act. I am also in the military, and I think the military has so many retention problems at least partially because they can't distinguish between 'this is a good idea' and 'this needs to be mandatory for everyone'. It is a good idea to not wear a nose ring. It is a good idea to scrub your hands before a C-section. However only one of those things is a sufficiently good idea that it needs to be mandatory for all residents.

As a physician, it is mandatory that your patients like you to at least a certain extent. Enough patient complaints will always get you fired, particularly as a resident. I personally try and do everything the studies say to make myself more likeable, because I consider those easy layups, and they offset the negative impression I make when I don't give out antibiotics for viruses or when I lecture parents about why vaccines shouldn't be optional. However I also don't have any particular emotional connection to the way that I look, and don't particularly want a tattoo or nose ring in the first place. If I did I would probably find another way to be likable.

Your resident knows what the nose ring looks like and apparently its worth it to her to keep it in. If she is still a resident I am guessing she comes of as professional enough that the ring doesn't tip the scales. So don't worry about it.
 
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I personally dont think you are wrong. Me nor many other people i know would be interested in hiring someone that was this unprofessional, but that doesnt mean other people would not, or maybe she could start her own thing and be super successful. As it turns out there is no universal standard for stuff like this. But it does highlight the growing cultural rift and one that energizes trump supporters.

Wanting people to be 100% unjudgemental to me is just a product of a coddled class of people that dont want judgement so they can do as they please without consequences. I think this is undisciplined and leads to chaos in someones life which is why so many people are hyped up on lexapro, but I could be totally wrong.
 
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There are lots and lots of studies that show that, basically, people are more likely to trust a traditionally dressed physician who acts in a certain way. Kakhis+collared shirt+white coat > scrubs > anything else. No piercings > piercings. No tattoos > tattoos. Smiling > not smiling. Sitting in the room > standing in the room. So in that sense you are right: physicians do best on satisfaction surveys when they look like a 1950s stereotype of a physician.

That does not, however, mean that you always have to do every single thing that makes your patients most likely to trust and like you. You have worked hard enough to earn some discretion about how you look and act. I am also in the military, and I think the military has so many retention problems at least partially because they can't distinguish between 'this is a good idea' and 'this needs to be mandatory for everyone'. It is a good idea to not wear a nose ring. It is a good idea to scrub your hands before a C-section. However only one of those things is a sufficiently good idea that it needs to be mandatory for all residents.

As a physician, it is mandatory that your patients like you to at least a certain extent. Enough patient complaints will always get you fired, particularly as a resident. I personally try and do everything the studies say to make myself more likeable, because I consider those easy layups, and they offset the negative impression I make when I don't give out antibiotics for viruses or when I lecture parents about why vaccines shouldn't be optional. However I also don't have any particular emotional connection to the way that I look, and don't particularly want a tattoo or nose ring in the first place. If I did I would probably find another way to be likable.

Your resident knows what the nose ring looks like and apparently its worth it to her to keep it in. If she is still a resident I am guessing she comes of as professional enough that the ring doesn't tip the scales. So don't worry about it.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but every time I see individuals cite studies like this, I can't help but wonder: "If the opposite results had unexpectedly been the case, how many physicians and faculty would run out and buy nose rings/tattoos to get their patients to trust them more."
 
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On my 3rd year OB clerkship and I work with a senior resident who wears a 10-guage septum nose ring at work. I got in a heated argument with another classmate when we discussed the do's and don'ts of looking professional. I may be biased from prior military service, but I feel there should be a certain image medical professionals are held to. He thinks otherwise and called me a fascist for suppressing one's individuality. I am all about individuality, but come on, we are healthcare providers in a hospital- not a bunch a college kids flipping burgers at a fast food restaurant. Am I wrong?
Not providers, physicians you mean

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Just because the doctor doesn't fit the previous stereotype of how a doctor looks doesn't mean that he/she is unprofessional. If patients want to judge her, so be it. If employers down the line want to judge her based on her appearance, so be it. It is not your place as a MS3 to critique the choices (fashion or otherwise) of a resident above you, unless it's truly detrimental to patient care, or at worst, your education.

You're not a fascist, so that's excessive, but just because you believe there's a certain way doctors should look doesn't mean everyone else shares the same view.
 
Maybe OP should consider learning some medicine from their resident instead of critiquing their fashion choices on an internet forum.

If his situation was anything like mine in OB, those dusty b*tches will shoot him a glare for breathing too loudly let alone trying to learn something.
 
I'm not disagreeing with you, but every time I see individuals cite studies like this, I can't help but wonder: "If the opposite results had unexpectedly been the case, how many physicians and faculty would run out and buy nose rings/tattoos to get their patients to trust them more."
👍 And also "won't this continue to be true as long as we continue propagating it by enforcing this same dress code so that patients equate a certain appearance with 'physician'?" I'm not saying we should all run out and change every detail of professionalism immediately, but people will deviate from the currently expected norms now and then until eventually those norms won't even resemble their current forms. Medicine just seems determined to change as slowly as possible on fronts like this, which is fine.
 
I hope for your sake the resident in question doesn't read SDN, because your post is fairly detailed regarding their appearance and your background/actions/location.

I think it kind of depends on the rest of their look... if someone has dirty hair, sloppy facial hair, wrinkled clothes... a nose piercing can add to the impression that they lack professionalism. But if they are otherwise clean cut, have a decent attitude, etc, I would get the impression that the program is one that prioritizes substance over appearance.

imo this is definitely a substance issue as a resident choosing to wear a nose ring would be a complete fool in my book. i straight up wouldn't trust their judgement, and I think many potential patients would agree with me
 
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imo this is definitely a substance issue as a resident choosing to wear a nose ring would be a complete fool in my book. i straight up wouldn't trust their judgement, and I think many potential patients would agree with me
OK, and if you expressed that view to me, I wouldn't trust your ability to see beyond snap judgements and stereotypes...and many people would agree with me. It tends to cut both ways, when people have differing opinions.
 
OK, and if you expressed that view to me, I wouldn't trust your ability to see beyond snap judgements and stereotypes...and many people would agree with me. It tends to cut both ways, when people have differing opinions.
Dude its a septum nose ring... wearing those, physician or not, immediately makes me respect a person less. I equate those with the massive holes that emos put in their earlobes. So rebellious. So hip. Freaking weirdos
 
OK, and if you expressed that view to me, I wouldn't trust your ability to see beyond snap judgements and stereotypes...and many people would agree with me. It tends to cut both ways, when people have differing opinions.
This is exactly the type of attitude that comes across as being immature. How is looking at someone's nose ring and associating it with unprofessionalism being judgmental? I'd challenge you to find me one employer or research paper that states that a nose ring makes one look more professional. It doesn't, and we all know it doesn't.

The best argument any person here can have for nose rings is that it doesn't affect professionalism at all, which is debatable. So, is it right for a physician to take this risk when his/her job is to care for patients? No one is arguing here that the physician is not intent on being professional while taking care of patients. But, a majority of communication is nonverbal and patients' biases about their physicians occur on an even subconscious level. Why even risk that 5% of your patients will respond less to your professional advice and care, all due to you wanting to wear a nose ring? The physician could wear her nose ring all she wants on her own time and even in clinic if her employer allows, but the reality is that it will deter some patients. I have never heard of a patient get offended because their physician wasn't wearing a nose ring.

People are overly sensitive with the whole perceived attack on individuality. I will always have a clean shave for any interview I ever attend. Why? Because no one gets offended when an interviewee has a clean shave.
 
I think it's ridiculous that doctors are allowed to choose any part of what they wear. Anything less than a black tie, white button down, black pants, and white coat is unprofessional. I don't even agree with that Mayo thing where they all look like lawyers and businessmen. For ladies, well, who are we kidding they don't even look like real doctors. You would think after being called "nurse" five times a day they would take the hint and leave medicine. The most important part of being a doctor is looking like a doctor, and you can't do that if you don't have the right genes.
 
imo this is definitely a substance issue as a resident choosing to wear a nose ring would be a complete fool in my book. i straight up wouldn't trust their judgement, and I think many potential patients would agree with me

Lol wut? What else immediately makes you judge a book by its cover and not trust anything about them? Tattoos? Large beard?
 
This is exactly the type of attitude that comes across as being immature. How is looking at someone's nose ring and associating it with unprofessionalism being judgmental? I'd challenge you to find me one employer or research paper that states that a nose ring makes one look more professional. It doesn't, and we all know it doesn't.

The best argument any person here can have for nose rings is that it doesn't affect professionalism at all, which is debatable. So, is it right for a physician to take this risk when his/her job is to care for patients? No one is arguing here that the physician is not intent on being professional while taking care of patients. But, a majority of communication is nonverbal and patients' biases about their physicians occur on an even subconscious level. Why even risk that 5% of your patients will respond less to your professional advice and care, all due to you wanting to wear a nose ring? The physician could wear her nose ring all she wants on her own time and even in clinic if her employer allows, but the reality is that it will deter some patients. I have never heard of a patient get offended because their physician wasn't wearing a nose ring.

People are overly sensitive with the whole perceived attack on individuality. I will always have a clean shave for any interview I ever attend. Why? Because no one gets offended when an interviewee has a clean shave.

As others have said, she is taking a risk that her patients will have the same biases that people in this thread seem to have. I'm sure she has likely thought about those risks. If you're an employer and you don't want people with nose rings, that is your prerogative, but to say that she shouldn't be allowed to see patients with a nose ring is over the top IMO. I think the large gauges emo kids wear in their ears are stupid too, but if somebody wants to take a chance on patients not taking them seriously and wear them as a MD, so be it. I don't feel like it's my place to enforce an unofficial uniform for doctors.
 
Maybe the PD will think twice when that ring gets caught in some kid's umbilical cord.
 
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The real problem is this person calling you a fascist for saying a nose ring is unprofessional. How is that a real statement? Is that just a neoliberal reflex when someone disagrees with your opinion and you must discredit them somehow?

She is obviously entitled to wear it, and it doesn't have any reflection on her ability as a physician, but like others have said many patients will be have a reaction, even if subconscious. We dress professionally because we are entering into an intimate doctor-patient relationship, one that we respect enough to wear what is universally seen in the US as formal and hygienic. Most of us would probably be fine with it, but to many a huge nose ring says "I care more about my individuality than preserving every patient relationship."
 
he called you a fascist? .... If my beard gets too scruffy I feel unprofessional at work. I can't imagine having a piece of steel hanging from my nose.

Pretty sure in most hospitals across the country staff cannot have any excessive or overly attention grabbing piercings, hair colors, or clothing. But maybe that applies only to employees and not medical staff.
 
The real problem is this person calling you a fascist for saying a nose ring is unprofessional. How is that a real statement? Is that just a neoliberal reflex when someone disagrees with your opinion and you must discredit them somehow?

She is obviously entitled to wear it, and it doesn't have any reflection on her ability as a physician, but like others have said many patients will be have a reaction, even if subconscious. We dress professionally because we are entering into an intimate doctor-patient relationship, one that we respect enough to wear what is universally seen in the US as formal and hygienic. Most of us would probably be fine with it, but to many a huge nose ring says "I care more about my individuality than preserving every patient relationship."

Agree with that. Imo unusual piercings, gages, and certain tattoos scream that an individual is desperate for attention and recognition as unique. Imo, medicine is about treating the patient and putting them first, not ensuring everyone can see you as a special little snowflake.
 
The real problem is this person calling you a fascist for saying a nose ring is unprofessional. How is that a real statement? Is that just a neoliberal reflex when someone disagrees with your opinion and you must discredit them somehow?

She is obviously entitled to wear it, and it doesn't have any reflection on her ability as a physician, but like others have said many patients will be have a reaction, even if subconscious. We dress professionally because we are entering into an intimate doctor-patient relationship, one that we respect enough to wear what is universally seen in the US as formal and hygienic. Most of us would probably be fine with it, but to many a huge nose ring says "I care more about my individuality than preserving every patient relationship."

This is exactly what I find odd with everyone getting all up in a tiff about a perceived attack on this physician's right of individuality and expression. It isn't that the nose ring itself is problematic--wearing one at home or when out and about is perfectly fine--but it will deter some patients on a subconscious level, which can be very problematic. I have yet to read any convincing points in this thread refute any of this.

But, sure if I can't agree with someone's opinion and don't want to defend my own, I'm gonna use the "fascist" card (*or insert any other of the terms here that have become popular of recent). That'll make 'em learn.
 
I think if my nose was up close and personal with everything during a birth, the umbilical cord tangling issue would be the least of my issues...

When people make wild statements that are very unlikely to happen look for the sarcastic humor first. You'll be more fun at parties. 😉
 
When people make wild statements that are very unlikely to happen look for the sarcastic humor first. You'll be more fun at parties. 😉
...and when people continue to explore said wild statements that are very unlikely to happen as if they were seriously considering them, you may also consider looking for the sarcastic humor. You'll be less unnecessarily condescending on the internet. 👍
 
I find it funny how many people in this thread seem to keep mentioning beards, or that being clean shaven as typical professional attire...when many, many male physicians (in my institution, especially in the highly competitive surgical fields) regularly rock beards.

But this chick with a piercing???? Total tool who obviously cares more about herself than her patients. I wouldn't trust her judgment.
 
A 10 gauge septum ring is not just any old "chick with a piercing."
 
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