Southern programs (Baylor,Duke,Emory,UNC)

[willriseIOC]

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Hello I wanted to know if anyone had any input about the academic strengths and also resident happiness at these programs? I want to live in the south but I really want to be at a higher tier program. Is there any other ones I should be looking at ? MUSC?

Thanks y'all

 

[nitemagi]

Hello I wanted to know if anyone had any input about the academic strengths and also resident happiness at these programs? I want to live in the south but I really want to be at a higher tier program. Is there any other ones I should be looking at ? MUSC?

Thanks y'all

Could you please use a smaller font?

 

[billypilgrim37]

Yes, include MUSC and UTSW. Relatively speaking, a med student will match at a "better" program in the South than they would in another region because of how few people want to live in the South. (I would be happy in the South, so I'm not knocking it, but most people would rather be in Gitmo than Birmingham.)

Vandy is just a breath underneath these programs but close enough to be well considered. UAB is stronger than you would think. Palmetto in SC is not very academic but I've heard people say they really like it. I've heard varying things about the southern Florida programs.

If you're expanding to areas where most people still have a Southern lilt, Cincinnati is as strong as any of these programs (Ohio is still fairly Southern until around Dayton). Louisville is probably better than people would expect, and I think people at Kentucky are happy too.

 

[surftheiop]

Just out of curiosity, are MUSC/UTSW a significant step down from the top couple southern programs or are all the ones mentioned on a pretty level playing field? (For the sake of this thread lets say your interested in academics)

 

[TexasPhysician]

Baylor is not a top psych program in my opinion. A friend of mine recently transferred out of Baylor - not happy there.

 

[CaMD]

Wow, that's news to me. I assumed Baylor was strong, esp with Meninger clinic. I had heard that it's great training but they work you real hard.

Baylor is not a top psych program in my opinion. A friend of mine recently transferred out of Baylor - not happy there. Few AMG's rank Baylor in my experience.

 

[classof2011]

I haven't gone on any interviews yet but from the "word on the street", very few southern programs come to mind when considering the TOP....but of those , its seems as if Duke is leading the pack, followed by UNC and Emory.

I'm assuming that the word TOP for you = best reputation/research activities/ most diverse learning experiences....

 

[kugel]

I don't know if this is still relevant, since I interviewed in 1999.
Plus, I was never a resident at any of them.
So this is probably useful only to me as reminiscing...

I interviewed at Duke, UNC, MUSC, Richmond, Emory (and did 1 month externship there). Of those, only UNC and Richmond seemed to care if their program was good fit for me, and me a good fit for them. At that time at MUSC, the psych dept was the largest, strongest dept in the hospital, so didn't get pushed around at all by other depts. Richmond was really quite cool. I truly enjoyed talking with the PD and the Dept Chair. All the residents seemed pretty happy with their choice (and not everyone I spoke to was hand-picked to speak with me), the training seemed good and diverse. There were a lot of FMG's and the AMG's mentioned that the residents at the top of their class were all FMG's. Everyone was quite impressed with them. When I asked the PD about this, he said that they actively recruit FMG's and therefore can get the Cream of the Crop - instead of using FMG's to fill open spots. Even the driver who picked me up at the hotel and took me back, seemed genuinely impressed with all the residents and attendings, and even the candidates. He enjoyed driving for the psych dept because he felt they were all so nice and wanted to help the people of his city who were having a hard time. Plus, from a city like Richmond, you can get to other great middle atlantic cities quickly and easily by train. I remember the Dept Chair saying that he and his wife will often decide on Friday to go into DC on Sat by train. He can always find a conference of one sort or another for the day, and she goes shopping. And they don't have to think about traffic or weather by using the train. Emory was very impressed with themselves as the "Harvard of the South." I liked the attendings and experience at the inner city hospital (Grady), but otherwise not so impressed.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Just out of curiosity, are MUSC/UTSW a significant step down from the top couple southern programs or are all the ones mentioned on a pretty level playing field? (For the sake of this thread lets say your interested in academics)

For academics, UTSW arguably has a better reputation than any of the programs in this thread. Probably on par with if not more respected than Duke. MUSC is a bit more regional, but similar with Emory and UNC.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Baylor is not a top psych program in my opinion. A friend of mine recently transferred out of Baylor - not happy there. Few AMG's rank Baylor in my experience.

UTSW definitely had a stronger reputation than Baylor. I'm always puzzled by the random SDN Baylor hype. I went to a school in the region, and Baylor was not pushed as a local strong program. For Texas and surrounding areas, Arkansas, UTSW and maybe UT-San Antonio are the stronger programs, imo.

 

[digitlnoize]

UTSW definitely had a stronger reputation than Baylor. I'm always puzzled by the random SDN Baylor hype. I went to a school in the region, and Baylor was not pushed as a local strong program. For Texas and surrounding areas, Arkansas, UTSW and maybe UT-San Antonio are the stronger programs, imo.

I think it's because Baylor is a name people recognize nationally, for whatever reasons (Sports, etc).

I don't know much about these yet, but I'm interviewing at most of the programs in the South (except Emory...no big city for me), so I'll let you know what I think in another month or two.

I went to VCU for undergrad, and have many friends at the med school, who had good things to say about their psych rotation. The only "drawback" to me there is that most of the patient population is urban-underserved, from what I hear. I could be wrong though, but that's what VCU/MCV is known for.

MUSC is usually on the top 10 or so list of research funding for psych, for whatever that's worth. Duke, UNC, and Emory are pretty well respected around these parts. UF is also, I think.

 

[nitemagi]

Baylor also has some very reputable psychiatrists, such as Jim Lomax and Glen Gabbard.

 

[BobA]

I loved Duke, and I think their grads go out and do good things.

 

[cleareyedguy]

Baylor also has some very reputable psychiatrists, such as Jim Lomax and Glen Gabbard.

And Stu Yudofsky, the chair, does a lot of writing and editing for the American Psychiatric Press. My understanding is that the current PD is young and may not have the presence that Lomax had for many years (I think he's still vice chair for education). And there are several other Baylor people who are prominent in their psych specialty area. At least in regards to "name" faculty, Baylor>UTSW

 

[SmallBird]

For academics, UTSW arguably has a better reputation than any of the programs in this thread. Probably on par with if not more respected than Duke. MUSC is a bit more regional, but similar with Emory and UNC.

Thats interesting, I never read much about UTSW, but they seem to have a lot of research funding so that is probably a good indication!

 

[TexasPhysician]

Thats interesting, I never read much about UTSW, but they seem to have a lot of research funding so that is probably a good indication!

UTSW has a great program. I interviewed at almost every TX program, and UTSW was the most impressive. I ranked it #2 on my ranklist. They have most fellowships, numerous sites, and friendly faculty.

While Baylor has a few name faculty, they do little else for residents. Most people including myself did not rank Baylor. The one person i know that did match there has successfully transferred out.

I'm sure Baylor appeals to some people, but as a place to train, it is not a top 3 program in Texas in my opinion.

 

[tennreb]

As a resident at MUSC, I think it is a fantastic program in an amazing city. Good clinical faculty and big name research faculty. Great support staff. Tons of research opportunities. If you are interested in academics, MUSC offers a research tract during the 3rd and 4th years where they pair you with a mentor, give you some funding, and block 50% of your time for research. Charleston is like living in a resort--marina across the street from the hospital, beach 20 min away, nationally known restaurants within walking distance, great shopping within walking distance, good nightlife, etc. I looked at every top program in the South and Texas (except Duke), and I am very happy I chose MUSC.

 

[deejayshakur]

UTSW has a great program. I interviewed at almost every TX program, and UTSW was the most impressive. I ranked it #2 on my ranklist. They have most fellowships, numerous sites, and friendly faculty.

While Baylor has a few name faculty, they do little else for residents. Most people including myself did not rank Baylor. The one person i know that did match there has successfully transferred out.

I'm sure Baylor appeals to some people, but as a place to train, it is not a top 3 program in Texas in my opinion.

I would have to agree with this statement. I'm currently an upper level resident at UTSW.

UTSW is a university-based program that has rotations at Parkland, the Children's Hospital, VA, university hospitals, community MH centers, and student MH clinics at the local universities. While it may seem like a lot of driving, most of the sites are consolidated at Southwestern Medical Center. There is a federally-funded Research Track with outstanding faculty in basic, clinical, and translational research. The program director is very responsive to resident feedback. Work-load wise, I would say that we work harder than most programs but almost all the "fat" has been cut away, i.e. no more answering a separate suicide pager or covering a VA psychiatric emergency service that was no longer educational (we spend 3 months at the Parkland PES). My understanding was that Baylor residents covered a suicide pager, the VA PES, and cross-covered for multiple psychiatric wards while on call. My colleagues are very supportive, easy-going, yet extremely bright in their own right. I would also agree that Baylor has more top names in the field: Gabbard, Yudofsky, Lomax, Oldham, Coverdale. The faculty at UTSW seems biased more in the direction of basic and clinical research. Still, our chair edits for the green journal, our Research Track director is an up and coming schizophrenia researcher, and many faculty keep bringing in the research dollars.

Dallas is certainly a smaller big city with all of the obligatory modern day necessities. Having traveled to Houston a number of times, I can say that while Dallas does not have the ethnic or culinary diversity that Houston does, Dallas also does not have the Los Angeles-esque traffic problem or humidity levels found only in rainforests.

I respect Baylor for its own merits, but based on recent data, they have an interesting dilemma: didactics and education are top-notch but clinically, it is overly service-oriented at the expense of learning. Whether this is financially driven or otherwise, I can only speculate. Regardless, I'm confident that this would never happen at UTSW under the current administration.

I've enjoyed my time here and feel very competent as I near graduation. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

 

[sonofthesouth]

I have to admit, I only read 10% of this thread, but what I have to add:

I interviewed at MUSC, Duke, Emory, UTSW, UNC, Arkansas, UAB, and USC-Palmetto.

I did NOT even bother with Baylor even though I went there for undergrad and highly respect the medical school and most residency programs there. However, I did not hear good things about their psych program, for the reasons listed above. Too much work and not enough education (which is ironically the case where I am now... none of those listed above, but a location that is as prestigious, if not moreso).

MUSC was probably my favorite because they seemed to have everything--research, great academics, laid back atmosphere, etc. etc. I think you'll find most people say the same thing. Following closely behind were Duke (great psychotherapy supervision) and Emory (solid all-around, especially in terms of experience at county hospital in downtown ATL). UTSW appeared GREAT but I was freaked out that all their residents had BMI's > 35 at the dinner I went to. I realize it is a skewed sample (at a FREE dinner), but nevertheless, I was scared I too would become a lard bucket. Bad reason to not rank them highly, but eh... I also don't like Dallas. But otherwise, it's a great program, far ahead of Baylor. As mentioned above, USC-Palmetto and UAB are worth considering too, although when I interviewed the UAB residents did not seem very intellectually curious. Just my impression from the hour or two I spent with a few of them. I'm sure they're a great program. Hope that helps! Oh, and UNC was scary... because of their q4 call the ENTIRE year intern year. Don't know if they still have that--hopefully not. I was tired of being a slave in med school.

 

[milesed]

I have to agree with the MUSC rec.
I interviewed at all of the programs the OP listed and the residents were all miserable besides at MUSC. The attendings and residents all seemed well-adjusted and happy.

The only reason you may need a top level program IMO is if you plan on an academic career at one of them.

 

[curiositykat]

I would have to agree with this statement. I'm currently an upper level resident at UTSW.

UTSW is a university-based program that has rotations at Parkland, the Children's Hospital, VA, university hospitals, community MH centers, and student MH clinics at the local universities. While it may seem like a lot of driving, most of the sites are consolidated at Southwestern Medical Center. There is a federally-funded Research Track with outstanding faculty in basic, clinical, and translational research. The program director is very responsive to resident feedback. Work-load wise, I would say that we work harder than most programs but almost all the "fat" has been cut away, i.e. no more answering a separate suicide pager or covering a VA psychiatric emergency service that was no longer educational (we spend 3 months at the Parkland PES). My understanding was that Baylor residents covered a suicide pager, the VA PES, and cross-covered for multiple psychiatric wards while on call. My colleagues are very
supportive, easy-going, yet extremely bright in their own right. I
would also agree that Baylor has more top names in the field: Gabbard, Yudofsky, Lomax, Oldham, Coverdale. The faculty at UTSW seems biased more in the direction of basic and clinical research. Still, our chair edits for the green
journal, our Research Track director is an up and coming schizophrenia
researcher, and many faculty keep bringing in the research dollars.

Dallas is certainly a smaller big city with all of the obligatory modern day necessities. Having traveled to Houston a number of times, I can say that while Dallas does not have the ethnic or culinary diversity that Houston does, Dallas also does not have the Los Angeles-esque traffic problem or humidity levels found only in rainforests.

I respect Baylor for its own merits, but based on recent data, they have an
interesting dilemma: didactics and education are top-notch but clinically, it is overly service-oriented at the expense of learning. Whether this is financially driven or otherwise, I can only speculate. Regardless, I'm confident that this would never happen at UTSW under the current administration.

I've enjoyed my time here and feel very competent as I near graduation. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

Thoughtful answer--as are several, above.

 

[2tall]

I would have to agree with this statement. I'm currently an upper level resident at UTSW.

UTSW is a university-based program that has rotations at Parkland, the Children's Hospital, VA, university hospitals, community MH centers, and student MH clinics at the local universities. While it may seem like a lot of driving, most of the sites are consolidated at Southwestern Medical Center. There is a federally-funded Research Track with outstanding faculty in basic, clinical, and translational research. The program director is very responsive to resident feedback. Work-load wise, I would say that we work harder than most programs but almost all the "fat" has been cut away, i.e. no more answering a separate suicide pager or covering a VA psychiatric emergency service that was no longer educational (we spend 3 months at the Parkland PES). My understanding was that Baylor residents covered a suicide pager, the VA PES, and cross-covered for multiple psychiatric wards while on call. My colleagues are very supportive, easy-going, yet extremely bright in their own right. I would also agree that Baylor has more top names in the field: Gabbard, Yudofsky, Lomax, Oldham, Coverdale. The faculty at UTSW seems biased more in the direction of basic and clinical research. Still, our chair edits for the green journal, our Research Track director is an up and coming schizophrenia researcher, and many faculty keep bringing in the research dollars.

Dallas is certainly a smaller big city with all of the obligatory modern day necessities. Having traveled to Houston a number of times, I can say that while Dallas does not have the ethnic or culinary diversity that Houston does, Dallas also does not have the Los Angeles-esque traffic problem or humidity levels found only in rainforests.

I respect Baylor for its own merits, but based on recent data, they have an interesting dilemma: didactics and education are top-notch but clinically, it is overly service-oriented at the expense of learning. Whether this is financially driven or otherwise, I can only speculate. Regardless, I'm confident that this would never happen at UTSW under the current administration.

I've enjoyed my time here and feel very competent as I near graduation. Please feel free to contact me with any questions.

I quoted this post not to single you out. I just feel it's irresponsible to cite so-called recent data or base your statement on so-called recent data. Stated two ways so as not to offend 😉

If the recent data is the misinformation you provided above, someone needs to fact-check.

I remember how eager I was an applicant so it's just so interesting to view threads like these from a new perspective.

I would advise any applicant to highly rank programs which appear to be the best fit for you.

The BCM faculty noted above (including our VA faculty, Kosten and Marsh) all work to ensure that our didactics and education (including clinical education) are top-notch.

My second bit of advice for applicants is to choose a program that will get you where you'd like to be. Baylor residents have no difficulty transitioning to their fellowships or careers upon commencement.

My last piece of advice for applicants is to choose a program where you know you'd be supported. No matter how renowned the name... if you can't share you inadequacies, insecurities, complaints or frustrations, you might start to feel a little helpless.

Ask questions you want answered at your interview. Don't be bashful. You're in control at this stage of the game.

 

[deejayshakur]

No offense taken. But I'm not sure what part of my post you are claiming needs fact checking. The facts are: as of last year, the calls at the VA involved cross-cover of inpatient/ED/suicide pager. Fact: at least one former resident from the current PGY-2 class has left the program. Fact: again as of last year, a large part (if not all) of resident salaries is paid by the VA.

Please post some detailed insight into the BCM program as I'm sure current applicants would like to know, especially if things have changed. No doubt your residents are well-trained, but you could say that about many programs in the country. It's the nuances in the way each program trains residents that affect the decision and overall fit of the program for each applicant.

I quoted this post not to single you out. I just feel it's irresponsible to cite so-called recent data or base your statement on so-called recent data. Stated two ways so as not to offend 😉

If the recent data is the misinformation you provided above, someone needs to fact-check.

I remember how eager I was an applicant so it's just so interesting to view threads like these from a new perspective.

I would advise any applicant to highly rank programs which appear to be the best fit for you.

The BCM faculty noted above (including our VA faculty, Kosten and Marsh) all work to ensure that our didactics and education (including clinical education) are top-notch.

My second bit of advice for applicants is to choose a program that will get you where you'd like to be. Baylor residents have no difficulty transitioning to their fellowships or careers upon commencement.

My last piece of advice for applicants is to choose a program where you know you'd be supported. No matter how renowned the name... if you can't share you inadequacies, insecurities, complaints or frustrations, you might start to feel a little helpless.

Ask questions you want answered at your interview. Don't be bashful. You're in control at this stage of the game.

 

[2tall]

No offense taken. But I'm not sure what part of my post you are claiming needs fact checking. The facts are: as of last year, the calls at the VA involved cross-cover of inpatient/ED/suicide pager. Fact: at least one former resident from the current PGY-2 class has left the program. Fact: again as of last year, a large part (if not all) of resident salaries is paid by the VA.

Please post some detailed insight into the BCM program as I'm sure current applicants would like to know, especially if things have changed. No doubt your residents are well-trained, but you could say that about many programs in the country. It's the nuances in the way each program trains residents that affect the decision and overall fit of the program for each applicant.

My response regarding your "facts" was based your statement, "I respect Baylor for its own merits, but based on recent data, they have an interesting dilemma: didactics and education are top-notch but clinically, it is overly service-oriented at the expense of learning."

Your statement had no basis in fact and appears to be based on your limited knowledge of the program.

You comment on our VA call duties which includes ER consults and the extememly rare emergent C/L consults. Our interns perform this service during their 6 on-service months. Historically, it has been performed during the PGYI year as duties of this role are pretty light. On average there are about 4 consults per night. One does receive calls from our nurses on the floor (= one acute unit and one geriatric unit) for the occasional patient complaint (sleep, pain, anxiety, agitation, etc) - not anything taxing. In addition, one carries the "suicide" pager. In emergent circumstances, VA Crisis Hotline nurses forward calls from veterans in need. In the 25-30 calls one would historically take, you'd likely receive less than 5 such calls - again nothing extreme or burdensome.

Residents rotate at the VA, our county hospital district, one of the country's best private hospitals, The Methodist Hospital, one of its best children's hospitals, Texas Children's Hospital, Baylor Psychiatry Clinic and The Menninger Clinic. The VA (in all its generosity) would not fund the rotations at outside facilities. An appropriate correction to your figure would be less than half.

BCM/Menninger takes 12 residents for the PGYI class each year. Everyone makes their own decisions regarding their life's course. We've had the pleasure of receiving transfers into the PGY2 year from other psychiatry residencies as well as residents switching gears from medicine or surgical specialties.

You are correct in stating residents who complete training are well-trained. 🙂

If you'd like to learn psychodynamic psychotherapy directly from Glen Gabbard or if you're interesting in any number of research projects within the largest VA hospital in the lower 48, look into Baylor.

 

[deejayshakur]

My response regarding your "facts" was based your statement, "I respect Baylor for its own merits, but based on recent data, they have an interesting dilemma: didactics and education are top-notch but clinically, it is overly service-oriented at the expense of learning."

Your statement had no basis in fact and appears to be based on your limited knowledge of the program.

I would check with your current PGY1s and 2s about the "light" loads. My facts are in fact based on in depth conversations with current junior residents. Therefore, my knowledge of the programs is not limited or misinformation, as you inferred. Unless perhaps your residents are telling different stories to adminstration vs. what is truly happening.

It looks like you're a current PGY3. I have heard stories that when your 3s and 4s take buddy call with the 1s and 2s, the senior residents comment on how significantly busier calls have become--to the point of being unmanageable by 1 resident. Again, this is based on BCM resident report.

The bottom line is: if you interview, make sure you see and talk to residents at all levels. Ask them about calls, about service vs. education balance, about residents who have left, about how many medical students stay for residency, etc. Good luck.

 

[billypilgrim37]

As someone who cares nothing about Baylor either way, I will point out to the two of you that when two people argue about whether a program is good or not on here through multiple posts, the program tends to look worse and worse with each additional post from either of you. I think as people who are tired and work more than we want to, we tend to a) believe negative things more than positive things, and b) mistrust positive things as "programspeak."

The recent postings about MUSC is probably the only exception, but that was because a resident could come through with such a vivid example of why the program was good (and there wasn't really any argument that MUSC WASN'T a pretty great program).

Even the recent Longwood FAQ post I think strikes me the wrong way, and I have a lot of respect for that program.

If you want to make Baylor look better, you should let this thread die. Otherwise, every time you guys continue it, it reminds everybody that at least one pretty-reliable-sounding person said it was terrible, and one "defender of the program" fumbled to defend it, regardless of how right you very well might be.

 

[PsychFugue]

Oh, and UNC was scary... because of their q4 call the ENTIRE year intern year. Don't know if they still have that--hopefully not. I was tired of being a slave in med school.

That isn't still the case for call at UNC - intern year psychiatry is divided between CRH, the state hospital, where it's q3 short call (stay til 8pm instead of 5pm handling either admissions or floor calls) on weekdays only (weekends off), and UNC, where the only call is 2 saturday psych ED shifts per month (1 day and 1 overnight).