Specialties that prefer MD/PhDs

[MedRower]

Hey Everyone,

This may have been covered already, but I couldn't find any posts on it. I'm currently an undergrad junior in biology. I'm still wrestling whether to apply MD or MD/PhD (rather late, I know).

Do MD/PhDs have an advantage over regular MDs when it comes to obtaining their preferred residency positions? Are there some specialties that prefer them?

Basically, if I think there is a non-zero chance that I might go for residency and then not do research after md/phd, should I consider any edge it might provide for my choice of career, in deciding whether to apply md/phd or md?

Thanks in advance guys.

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[conrad]

Going MD/PhD may increase your chances of getting certain specialties, but I would strongly advise not doing it solely for this reason.

If you are worried about getting into a competitive specialty, taking a year off to do research (like the one-year HHMI program), working with a big-name mentor in your field of interest and getting a few publications can help your application.

 

[MedRower]

Good advice. Speaking of the chances to get in places, do you think if a qualified candidate has more research experience, and less volunteering, then it might be easier to get into an MD/PhD program than MD?

 

[dr.z]

Maybe pathology since many pathologists are involved in research.

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

maybe i should start a new thread, but let's get some posts on other md/phd friendly or not so friendly specialties.

i.e.
pathology=good

surgery=bad

 

[tr]

Good advice. Speaking of the chances to get in places, do you think if a qualified candidate has more research experience, and less volunteering, then it might be easier to get into an MD/PhD program than MD?

Dude. This is a HUGE time investment. If you're not sure you want it, you can be sure you don't. (Kind of like what they say about marriage!) Don't waste four extra years just to get a better med school or residency slot. There are much more effective ways to achieve that.

 

[conrad]

Neurology and, to some extent, neurosurgery like MD/PhDs.

 

[Neuronix]

Do MD/PhDs have an advantage over regular MDs when it comes to obtaining their preferred residency positions? Are there some specialties that prefer them?

Yes, they do have an advantage over MDs when it comes to obtaining certain residency positions. In general, academic residency programs want to train future academics--either those who stay in academia doing clinical work or do basic science research. MD/PhDs have experience in research, more experience in academia, and a demonstrated interest in staying in academia. Therefore, they are more sought after by these programs. These programs happen to be the most prestigious residency programs for the same sorts of reasons that MSTPs are at the most prestigious medical schools. Prestige comes from having good researchers, funding for research, etc... It does not come from just training clinicians.

As for specialty, it's going to matter more or less for some specialties, but in general the MD/PhD will give you a boost for anything. Even in surgical subspecialties or other clinically oriented specialties, there will be academic programs who will want to produce academics and will therefore look on your research favorably. IM, Peds, and Pathology have historically been the most MD/PhD friendly, but these are NOT competitive residencies to begin with. Sure, having the MD/PhD will help you get a top program in these specialties, but allopathic grads (especially from the big name schools) tend to match well in them anyway.

Basically, if I think there is a non-zero chance that I might go for residency and then not do research after md/phd, should I consider any edge it might provide for my choice of career, in deciding whether to apply md/phd or md?

What edge are you looking for? If you want to go be a clinician, go be a clinician. You don't need MD/PhD. Why is it going to matter that you did research or you went to the biggest name academic residency? Save those spots for those who are planning to use the research training. Not everyone agrees with me on that point, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Speaking of the chances to get in places, do you think if a qualified candidate has more research experience, and less volunteering, then it might be easier to get into an MD/PhD program than MD?

It depends. If you have no volunteering, high GPA, high MCAT, and alot of research experience, yeah it will probably be easier to get into a big name MD/PhD program than a big name MD program. People don't like it when I say that, as it gives people the wrong idea, but it's more or less true. The MD/PhD process is more a formula of GPA, MCAT, Research Experience, and research interest. The interest part is easy to fake, though if you don't show lots of interest, genuine or otherwise, your application will die immediately. Most MD programs are going to view your research as just one more extracirricular. If you don't have more extracirriculars to back it up, then you'll have more difficulty. Now this doesn't hold for all MD programs--some are more in tune with producing academic physicians/basic science researchers. That being said, the majority of medical schools are looking to produce clinicians and push the academic bent onto their MD/PhD programs. What makes the future politically correct clinician? Lots of politically correct ECs the applicant won't carry on into med school.

 

[Gfunk6]

RadOnc. Big-time. About 13% of applicants have PhDs. If you have 240+ Step I/II and AOA but no research, you will have a very difficult time matching into this field.

A few places interview only MD-PhDs and others prefer if > 50% of interviewees are MD-PhD.

 

[Hurricane]

Psych is very MD/PhD friendly. The 4th year of the residency is pretty much all elective, and so you can spend 90% of your time doing research if you wish, and many programs have research fellowships for those who want to do a 5th year. And psych is hungry for more basic science researchers, so the MD/PhD makes you a very desirable candidate. (Unless all the program directors are lying to me.)

But echoing what others have said, it's not a good idea to enroll in an MD/PhD program for the sole purpoe of getting into a competitive residency. It's a long haul, and if you're not doing it because you love it, then it's just not worth it.

 

[jjmack]

Psych is very MD/PhD friendly. The 4th year of the residency is pretty much all elective, and so you can spend 90% of your time doing research if you wish, and many programs have research fellowships for those who want to do a 5th year. And psych is hungry for more basic science researchers, so the MD/PhD makes you a very desirable candidate. (Unless all the program directors are lying to me.)

But echoing what others have said, it's not a good idea to enroll in an MD/PhD program for the sole purpoe of getting into a competitive residency. It's a long haul, and if you're not doing it because you love it, then it's just not worth it.

Child psych is especially trying to increase the number of researchers. I meet an MD/PhD trained child psychiatrist who received a K and an R01 at the same tiime..

 

[MedRower]

Hey thanks for all of the info so far guys. One last thing, I think this describes me pretty well (sorry in advance, I'm really not trying to be a troll):

It depends. If you have no volunteering, high GPA, high MCAT, and alot of research experience, yeah it will probably be easier to get into a big name MD/PhD program than a big name MD program.

I'd say this described me pretty well. Sadly, I really have no volunteering, although I have clinical experience and other decent ECs (at least I believe so). I'm looking into starting some volunteering as soon as possible - although I realize it's late in the process to be doing so, as I'm a junior. I'm hoping I could get enough before interviews (as my premed advisor says is possible). but i don't know.

I'm pretty torn here, unfortunately. I've done research, and I'm ambivalent towards it: it's somewhat addicting - I always want to see the result of the next experiment. but it can be frustrating as hell, and I do have doubts whether I'll be good at it. (of course the same could apply to clinical medicine.) I'm not sure I would say I love research. but in theory, in the long run I think it would be more satisfying than clinical work alone (in the sort of what-have-I-accomplished-in-my-life kind of way).

So this is my dilemma. On paper, I think I'm a pretty good dual degree candidate. But what if I realize I don't want to do research for the rest of my career, and end up practicing medicine for some reason or another (I'll admit one, and I don't think this is damnable: $$$). I've been considering what the implications of getting the dual degree anyway would be. So that's the motivation for the first post.

Perhaps I sound confused - and it's probably because I am. So here are two questions for those not interested in nuance:

1. Do individual people apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs? and, if you've read the above,

2. Is there any solution to the ambivalence I feel towards research and my career path? I've thought that MD/PhD would prepare me for either field should I want to enter it. Since I'm a junior, I guess I don't have the luxury of time to do a lot more research to figure out if i like it or not.

Thanks again guys.

P.S. Not to give the wrong impression: I really loved the clinical experience I've had. I think it could even be fulfilling. But, I worry it might lack in being intellectually satisfying or be basic enough to have a sufficient impact (yes, I hope to achieve something with my life - but doesn't everyone?). I think the problem is research and clinical work both look like enjoyable careers, but both have some real caveats.

[Edit: Clarification]

 

[conrad]

People definitely apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs. With an MSTP-funded program, you can back out after the second year (ie., go into clinic just like everyone else in your class) and incur no repayment penalties for the first two years.

However, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the straight-MD degree in research. Plenty of MDs have made huge research contributions, and some of them have minimized or eliminated their clinical workload in favor of running a lab. An MD student wanting to do research can take a year off between 3rd and 4th year to do a research fellowship. In the end, I don't think these candidates necessarily are less prepared to do research than MD/PhDs.

I'm a little biased because I'm an MD/PhD candidate now and I wish I had considered the MD-only option more seriously. I have no doubt that my PhD time has taught me more about how to do research than I would have taken away from a single fellowship year, but whether it'll be worth it in the end, I don't know.

So I guess what I'm saying is, don't look at getting only an MD as closing the door to academic medicine. There are plenty of great research and training opportunities for plain old MDs.

 

[MedRower]

So I guess what I'm saying is, don't look at getting only an MD as closing the door to academic medicine. There are plenty of great research and training opportunities for plain old MDs.

Thanks, that's a good point.

Although, aren't, for example, NIH grants heavily skewed in favor of mudphuds? (perhaps this is old data, and, of course, correlation doesn't prove causation, i know, i know.) There seem to be some pretty big advantages for doing MD/PhD over MD-research, including protected research time, which you mention. ::shrugs:: I don't know - it's been a hell of a time for me, trying to make this decision. It's almost a matter of knowing that if i do both, i know i'll be prepared to matter where I end up (which is really a spectrum considering my confusion over where to go in life with respect to a career).

 

[dr.z]

So I guess what I'm saying is, don't look at getting only an MD as closing the door to academic medicine. There are plenty of great research and training opportunities for plain old MDs.

Yes, there are lots of successful MDs in research.

 

[shortyganoush]

So this is my dilemma. On paper, I think I'm a pretty good dual degree candidate. But what if I realize I don't want to do research for the rest of my career, and end up practicing medicine for some reason or another (I'll admit one, and I don't think this is damnable: $$$). I've been considering what the implications of getting the dual degree anyway would be. So that's the motivation for the first post.

Perhaps I sound confused - and it's probably because I am. So here are two questions for those not interested in nuance:

1. Do individual people apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs? and, if you've read the above,

2. Is there any solution to the ambivalence I feel towards research and my career path? I've thought that MD/PhD would prepare me for either field should I want to enter it. Since I'm a junior, I guess I don't have the luxury of time to do a lot more research to figure out if i like it or not.

Thanks again guys.

P.S. Not to give the wrong impression: I really loved the clinical experience I've had. I think it could even be fulfilling. But, I worry it might lack in being intellectually satisfying or be basic enough to have a sufficient impact (yes, I hope to achieve something with my life - but doesn't everyone?). I think the problem is research and clinical work both look like enjoyable careers, but both have some real caveats.

[Edit: Clarification]

Don't worry about how you come across because you've definitely articulated a lot of my own feelings about the hole process, as well as what I'm sure a lot of people still feel. To some extent I too am probably in this process because both careers seem to have so much potential and so it can't hurt to have both degrees.

As far as your questions go:

1. I've met other applicants who apply to both MD and MD/PhD programs, but I don't know yet how they did. From my own research, if you’re not the perfect applicant but you can write a great essay and get some more volunteer experience, Stanford may be a good school to apply MD only because the curriculum is so research intensive anyway. That way you don't have to wait for the MSTP committee to pass your application along if they don't accept you. However, it's an expensive school in an expensive part of the country.

2. There is no solution other than just having those moments where it dawns on you exactly what you want. In general, I'm pretty confident that I've made the right choice now that I have one acceptance. But I'm also hoping I have a few more of those moments in that 7-8 year time period.

Good Luck!

 

[dutch84]

Neurology and, to some extent, neurosurgery like MD/PhDs.

I didn't know neurosurgery liked MD/PhDs...That's good to know.

 

[Shifty B]

wow. you just dug up a thread that's 4 years old. some people's opinions may have changed by now.

 

[brooklynblunder]

12% of people who matched into derm had PhDs. and my PI (mstp -> dermatologist lab prof) says programs love people with the doctorate since the field is lacking. however, doing research in residency/fellowship/career is totally up to the program and some programs probably frown upon it.