Stanford vs. WashU

[Mangoenthusiast]

Hi everyone! I’m very conflicted about this decision and would appreciate any insights. I am pretty set on a surgical subspeciality, likely plastics (previous research background here, also open to ortho/nsgy), and likely want to go into academia (not 100% set on this). I have a strong background in research and want to continue to take ownership of projects/begin my own throughout medical school. I am fortunate enough to have parental support and will not have much debt either way.

Stanford

Pros:

(+++) So, so many opportunities for interdisciplinary work, whether in policy or tech and research. Medical students seem to have more involvement with things outside of medicine which I think is really cool

(+++) Really good department for plastics + some great basic science research happening here. It seems like medical students have opportunity to be really involved and are given a ton of autonomy. There’s multiple options in the curriculum like the “split” curriculum, Berg Scholars, funding for a research year, etc.

(+) My physician mentors have all told me to go here—they think it will open more doors for me

(+) Better vibe at Second Look! I got along with the people here better—however, I know that SLW vibes aren’t everything and I’ll find my people anywhere eventually

(+) I’d rather live in California than St. Louis, it is closer to home, and I like the area better

Cons:

(---) Cost. It is a total of 400K over 4 years, and I can potentially shave around 60K off through TAing. My parents are willing to pay this, but it is still a large amount of money and causes me anxiety.

(-) 2-year preclinical curriculum limits time to do away rotations? I’ve spoken to current students, and they say that if I take a research year (which I plan on doing regardless of where I go), it will be fine

(-) Less formal opportunities for early clinical exposure? Seems that they have “early clinical engagement” in their curriculum, but I’m unsure what this looks like really

WashU

Pros:

(+++) Full tuition scholarship! Total COA will be around 130K.

(++) 1.5 year curriculum gives more time for electives and away rotations

(+) Still really great surgical programs, some of the top programs for ortho and neurosurgery.

(+) Diverse patient populations/ being the safety net hospital for most of St Louis, and opportunities for early clinical exposure

Cons:

(--) Living in St. Louis—far away from family, possibly less opportunity for an SO, overall, just an undesirable area

(--) a lot of people went unmatched this year in the specialty I am interested in. It could just be an off year, but it still worries me.

(--) Fewer opportunities for interdisciplinary collaboration/ opportunities for collaboration

(-) I liked their SLW less than Stanford’s –vibes with other students were just off. I know that the vibes in a SLW are not necessarily representative of the class, but I still felt slightly more awkward/out of place here

If cost were equal, I would probably choose Stanford. However, the significant cost difference is making me hesitate, even though I have great family support. I know that in the long run once I’m a surgeon it won’t seem like a lot of money, but it is a large amount of money to me now. I’m very confused and would appreciate any helpful advice!

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[CheeesyBoi]

With your parents helping you out, is this in the form of them paying for school outright or giving you a loan?

From looking at your list, it seems like Stanford 1000%. The only real thing pushing you towards WashU is the scholarship money (which is obviously a huge deal), however, how much of a difference does a full tuition scholarship make if your parents will be paying for school.

 

[Chipmunk435]

Disclaimer: Likely committing to WashU, R from Stanford.

This may be an overly neurotic analysis, but just because your parents are paying does not mean it doesn't cost you any money. This may be morbid, but that 270k difference would be coming out of your inheritance. If that wasn't spent on tuition and just stayed in the stock market, it would be worth ~1.1 million in 20 years, which could mean retiring 5+ years earlier. It's just something to consider.

In terms of opportunities for interdisciplinary work, I would also not sleep on WashU. Check out the Cortex for biotech, the new partnership with the business school for health tech development, and the new school of public health.

I would also not write off STL. While no California, the Stanford area is not particularly known for being a lively place to be either. St Louis has tons to do, all while being cheap; I firmly believe STL gets an unnecessarily bad rap.

I also felt like SLW was a little off. I think a big part of that was WashU paying for flights, leading to a good number of people coming who otherwise would not have. This led to a lot of people being there who were never going to commit to WashU, which lowered a lot of excitement about the school and students' motivation to build a connection with each other.

Obviously, you can't go wrong here. I think these are just some things to consider!

 

[YellowSalamander]

Stanford will not open doors WashU will not in medicine! The mentorship, and research opportunities will be largely identical at both. WashU might however have a slight edge in clinical training, given that Barnes Jewish campus (safety net and tertiary referral center) is 3-4 times bigger than Stanford Health, meaning you might get more individualized attention by specialists and a more diverse experience. Stanford has the edge in innovation, but WashU is no joke here either. If you want a competitive surgical subspecialty you might also consider how much time you will have for policy and tech.

300k is a lot of money. With a delta that big I can not recommend anything but WashU.

 

[MercifulCamper]

No difference in pedigree between these two. WashU given the cost difference.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

If it's true that >80% of plastics applicants went unmatched at WashU (I've heard this secondhand, so no guarantees it's true), that's enough of a red flag to me to make me nervous. That being said, Stanford had a crap ton of derm applicants go unmatched a couple years ago, so it definitely could just be a fluke.

Only you can make the decision to accept family support in that amount. I think I would go to Stanford if I were you. Congratulations on a tough choice!

 

[Mangoenthusiast]

If it's true that >80% of plastics applicants went unmatched at WashU (I've heard this secondhand, so no guarantees it's true), that's enough of a red flag to me to make me nervous. That being said, Stanford had a crap ton of derm applicants go unmatched a couple years ago, so it definitely could just be a fluke.

Only you can make the decision to accept family support in that amount. I think I would go to Stanford if I were you. Congratulations on a tough choice!

It is true … I’ve heard from current students. It’s not just plastics, they had folks go unmatched in other specialities as well (but to a lesser extent). I’m not sure how to interpret this… is it just a bad year? Their match list is usually stellar and I know they had turnover in terms of their PD mid-cycle. Other students have speculated that it was because this was the first graduating class of their new Gateway curriculum and also a class that entered during COVID so the school hadn’t yet ironed out the kinks in their education.

Apparently folks did get interviews but failed to match. The school basically told current students that they need to be more realistic with their match lists, and alluded to people wanting top programs as responsible for them going unmatched. All of this is what I’ve heard secondhand but it still worries me slightly.

 

[garlic_hunter]

Students going unmatched applying to some of the most competitive specialties is hardly an unusual occurence, even at the elite programs. A year with a few more surgery applicants going unmatched is not an indictment of the program, but more likely an outlier. Neither option will provide you with a meaningful advantage if you want to match into plastic surgery. Perhaps also worth noting that most Stanford students take 5-6 years to complete their MD (a considerable sacrifice), which results in better match outcomes making the comparison moot.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

It is true … I’ve heard from current students. It’s not just plastics, they had folks go unmatched in other specialities as well (but to a lesser extent). I’m not sure how to interpret this… is it just a bad year? Their match list is usually stellar and I know they had turnover in terms of their PD mid-cycle. Other students have speculated that it was because this was the first graduating class of their new Gateway curriculum and also a class that entered during COVID so the school hadn’t yet ironed out the kinks in their education.

Apparently folks did get interviews but failed to match. The school basically told current students that they need to be more realistic with their match lists, and alluded to people wanting top programs as responsible for them going unmatched. All of this is what I’ve heard secondhand but it still worries me slightly.

I think the COVID explanation could be a great one - this would have been the entering class of 2020 if they took a research year which most plastics applicants do. That's a significant disruption to claw back from. Don't love them pinning the "they wanted top schools" on the unmatched but it could be a valid explanation. Is the new PD strong? Would you be happy to match at WashU plastics? I know Stanford plastics has 4 spots, which is nice. Also for the 5-6 students who didn't match, it is also totally possible that each of them had some sort of fluke or red flag or whatever causes you to not match in something so competitive aside from statistical chance - the source of my concern is that mentorship may not be strong if people weren't strategic with their aways/lists so that's why I'm pointing you to look at the incoming PD and also just check out the department - is there only one person who's doing most of the "med student research" (aka lower quality but quicker clinical studies), do they have big names in all the subspecialties etc

Re: Stanford taking longer, I think that's just like what it is at Yale: a symptom of opportunity instead of necessity. No one at Stanford will struggle to match in 4 as long as you put the work in.

But again, this is a lot of money on the line and I think WashU would also get you where you want to go.

 

[garlic_hunter]

I think the COVID explanation could be a great one - this would have been the entering class of 2020 if they took a research year which most plastics applicants do. That's a significant disruption to claw back from. Don't love them pinning the "they wanted top schools" on the unmatched but it could be a valid explanation. Is the new PD strong? Would you be happy to match at WashU plastics? I know Stanford plastics has 4 spots, which is nice. Also for the 5-6 students who didn't match, it is also totally possible that each of them had some sort of fluke or red flag or whatever causes you to not match in something so competitive aside from statistical chance - the source of my concern is that mentorship may not be strong if people weren't strategic with their aways/lists so that's why I'm pointing you to look at the incoming PD and also just check out the department - is there only one person who's doing most of the "med student research" (aka lower quality but quicker clinical studies), do they have big names in all the subspecialties etc

Re: Stanford taking longer, I think that's just like what it is at Yale: a symptom of opportunity instead of necessity. No one at Stanford will struggle to match in 4 as long as you put the work in.

But again, this is a lot of money on the line and I think WashU would also get you where you want to go.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Stanford students taking longer is a symptom of necessity. It's clearly cultural and encouraged. I think the point was merely that comparing match lists between two institutions is rarely productive if there is a substantive difference in how many years applicants from the respective schools spend before applying. It doesn't actually reveal much meaningful information about the ability of programs to get you where you want to go.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Stanford students taking longer is a symptom of necessity. It's clearly cultural and encouraged. I think the point was merely that comparing match lists between two institutions is rarely productive if there is a substantive difference in how many years applicants from the respective schools spend before applying. It doesn't actually reveal much meaningful information about the ability of programs to get you where you want to go.

Totally see your point, but I think the fact that Stanford students can take meaningful time off and match really well is also an asset - I think more students would do this if it was easy to find funding/opportunities at their home school.

As I have said in many other threads, I don't think there is much of a meaningful difference in any match list once you get to the ~T15 range of schools aside from maybe ease of getting into the Big 4 IM programs (in which case the Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF home field advantage definitely helps). And home field advantage for any specialty - you need a strong home program to help your application, and better to pick the school (all other things being equal) that has the home program you'd rather stay at given how competitive surgical subspecialties are getting...

 

[garlic_hunter]

Totally see your point, but I think the fact that Stanford students can take meaningful time off and match really well is also an asset - I think more students would do this if it was easy to find funding/opportunities at their home school.

As I have said in many other threads, I don't think there is much of a meaningful difference in any match list once you get to the ~T15 range of schools aside from maybe ease of getting into the Big 4 IM programs (in which case the Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF home field advantage definitely helps). And home field advantage for any specialty - you need a strong home program to help your application, and better to pick the school (all other things being equal) that has the home program you'd rather stay at given how competitive surgical subspecialties are getting...

Yea, it absolutely can be if you want to take additional years. However, similar funding opportunities for research years are available at WashU, meaning that door would not be closed regardless of the school the person decides to attend. I definitely agree that there is tremendous value in having a strong home program.

 

[bananasundae3]

I would go to Stanford, hands down. Although both schools have integrated plastics, Stanford’s is more highly regarded and you could easily match into it as a Stanford student since it’s your home institution/you’ll have developed research and mentorship relationships with faculty who are deciding who to match!

Disclaimer: I was at the WashU SLW too, I hope it wasn’t me who gave bad vibes