Starting medical school with a PhD

[yyd]

---

Members do not see this ad.

-

 

[ChocolateCrazy]

I think it is absolutely greatttt!!! When u think u can do it and u wanna do it there is nothing else that matters!!! All that research experience surely improves ur critical thinking and problem solving skills.... etc..... besides you are accepted to med school!!! why would they be tough on you?!?!😕

I have been working as a research associate for two years and will also begin med school this fall!!! Hats off to you!!! 😀

 

[DoctorFunk]

I honestly doubt most of your faculty/attendings will care or even know about your PhD as long as you're not one of those tools that gets your degree monogrammed on their white coat or insists on people calling them "Dr." on a daily basis. It's great that you have a doctorate already, but don't think that it will put you anywhere but on the bottom rung of the medical hierarchy ladder with the rest of your classmates this fall.

 

[mudphudwannabe]

In general, people don't care. There were a few people in my class who started with PhD's or Masters degrees -- I just kind of assumed they were right out of undergrad like the most of the rest of the class and was kind of surprised to find out later on in first year that they had graduate degrees. They didn't flaunt it, but of course they didn't hide it either. I don't think people will expect more from you or be more critical of you because you have a PhD -- it's a completely different realm of knowledge and experience than clinical medicine.

As an aside, you might want to look into getting involved with the MD/PhD program if your school has one, if you're interested in keeping up your scientific thinking during med school. In our program, during the first 2 years we had a journal club, plus a seminar that was usually PhD students presenting on their research. Of course, you might not want to add to your commitments..just something to consider.

 

[smq123]

Having received such a response, it also made me wonder: how do facultly at med school view PhD students? Are they tougher on us? Will my PhD be called into question by clinicians whenever there is something I don't know, no matter if it is relevant to my field of study or not? Or perhaps they generally don't care? Not that it matters so much, but I'd like to hear of other people's experiences with this.

They won't even know that you have a PhD unless you tell them. We've had a few people with PhD in my class, and no one treats them any differently.

I think other people are surprised because they see a PhD as a "end" degree - i.e., why go any farther? But, whatever - you're doing what you want, right?

 

[megadon]

To be blunt, no one will care, but will be jealous when you get to neuro. I love that class, but my grade sucks. Congrats though, seriously.

 

[45408]

You had just better do well in neuro 😛

 

[yyd]

-

 

[45408]

That's what I was worried about: that somehow I would be expected to know everything because of my degree. As far as doing well in neuro... I had neuroanatomy in graduate school and liked it a lot, especially the practicals. Learning the pathways, though, was a killer: did not really get it at that time and certainly don't remember much. So I'll definitely be on the same level as anyone when it comes to this.

pathways are huge, because that's where all the Step 1 lesion questions are going to come into play. good luck though.

 

[njbmd]

Hi all,

I recently got a PhD in neuroscience and will start med school this fall. So far, people who have learned about my plans for med school reacted with a disbelief and a shock. I find it surprising that the first thing people want to know is "how many years it will take me..." whatever: to finish med school, to finish residency. Medicine is something I really want to do, and I view the whole process as an expereince I want to have, not a number of years to reach a certain point. Thus I am bewildered by people's reaction.

Having received such a response, it also made me wonder: how do facultly at med school view PhD students? Are they tougher on us? Will my PhD be called into question by clinicians whenever there is something I don't know, no matter if it is relevant to my field of study or not? Or perhaps they generally don't care? Not that it matters so much, but I'd like to hear of other people's experiences with this.

Your Ph.D doesn't make any difference. Unless your school is willing to give you credit for coursework done within the context of your Ph.D(GW does this), you are just like any other freshman medical student.

In the average freshman medical class, there are usually more than 100 students. Faculty members don't scan the credentials of the students and seldom get to know students individually. It's just not practical. The students that we tend to know are the ones who come for help regularly and in that case, we seldom bother to look at background.

In terms of being tougher (or easier), your tests are likely to be graded by computer (computer doesn't know or care about your background) and grades are compiled by computer. The grades fall where they fall (usually the only control that we have over grading is whether to remove individual questions) and anything that affects one student will affect the whole class.

At my medical school, two of us came in with Ph.Ds in Biochemistry (I was one of them). I honored Biochemistry easily while my colleague just passed (don't know why). Both of us were required to take the Medical Biochemistry course even though I had previously taught Medical Biochemistry at another medical school in the city.

In terms of the Ph.D, it was helpful in the sense that I made loads of money tutoring and teaching my fellow medical students. There were Pharm.Ds and Ph.Ds in neuroscience in my class and the class ahead of me who had the same experience. It also allowed me to focus on coursework that demanded a bit more of my attention such as Gross Anatomy. I was able to finish my pre-clinical coursework with Honors which came in quite handy when residency application time came around.

 

[8744]

Hi all,

I recently got a PhD in neuroscience and will start med school this fall. So far, people who have learned about my plans for med school reacted with a disbelief and a shock. I find it surprising that the first thing people want to know is "how many years it will take me..." whatever: to finish med school, to finish residency. Medicine is something I really want to do, and I view the whole process as an expereince I want to have, not a number of years to reach a certain point. Thus I am bewildered by people's reaction.

Having received such a response, it also made me wonder: how do facultly at med school view PhD students? Are they tougher on us? Will my PhD be called into question by clinicians whenever there is something I don't know, no matter if it is relevant to my field of study or not? Or perhaps they generally don't care? Not that it matters so much, but I'd like to hear of other people's experiences with this.

I completely respect your accomplishments and believe that you will have a huge advantage in your Neuroscience block, a block that used me like a prison wife and then traded me to Renal for a pack of cigarettes, but you are going to eat those words starting about...oh...the first week of third year when you look ahead to the next at least five years (if not more) of training and say to yourself, "Dear God, what have I done?"

Trust me on this. You will be sick of medical school by the end of third year and sick of residency by the second day of intern year.

Stand by.

 

[cfdavid]

Hi all,

I recently got a PhD in neuroscience and will start med school this fall. So far, people who have learned about my plans for med school reacted with a disbelief and a shock. I find it surprising that the first thing people want to know is "how many years it will take me..." whatever: to finish med school, to finish residency. Medicine is something I really want to do, and I view the whole process as an expereince I want to have, not a number of years to reach a certain point. Thus I am bewildered by people's reaction.

Having received such a response, it also made me wonder: how do facultly at med school view PhD students? Are they tougher on us? Will my PhD be called into question by clinicians whenever there is something I don't know, no matter if it is relevant to my field of study or not? Or perhaps they generally don't care? Not that it matters so much, but I'd like to hear of other people's experiences with this.

First, it's great that you have a PhD. Also, what you described above is super important, in my opinion. You have to look at it as an adventure....

 

[OncoCaP]

I'm also a Ph.D. entering med school. However, mine's in engineering, so even less related than yours. I would view the Ph.D. as a positive (extra education) rather than a liability or expectation that you need to do better than everyone else; at least that's how I view it.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

A classmate of mine has a PhD in Organic Chemistry, and he taught as a professor in the subject for several years. That bit of information leads me to expect that he's an intelligent individual, but I don't make other assumptions; I don't think my classmates and I ever expected him to automatically honor every class, or be tutoring us in any way. Though he did send out some really helpful biochem summaries 🙂

 

[yyd]

-

 

[smq123]

Panda, I know you are disappointed/disillusioned by medicine, as you write in your blog, but why assume it would be the same for everyone? Are you trying to say that "Dear God, what have I done?" is inevitable no matter how optimistic one might be about the profession?

I can't answer for Panda, but what I think he is saying is that anyone who views medical education as a "process" to be enjoyed is in for a big disappointment. There's probably some truth to that, although it's not as bleak as all that either.

The process is the least enjoyable part. The high points (i.e. graduation / last day of residency / match day) are wonderful. The process to get to those points is monotonous, degrading, sometimes humiliating, and can be pretty awful. And, it's odd how, standing OUTSIDE of medical school, the whole process didn't seem that long to me. Then, somewhere around the middle of first year, I realized: "I've been sitting in the same auditorium, in the same seat, seeing the same faces, for 7 months. I'll be doing this same thing for another 14 months. That's if I pass Step 1. Good God, what I have done?!?!" It's a long road, but sometimes it's hard to realize just how long it is until you're smack in the middle of it.

The thoughts of having to apply for this kind of job did not excite me at all: I know science is something I could do well, but I would have to force myself to get up every day for a job I did not care about that much. This is why I am confident that medicine will be different. I wanted to go to med school really badly, ever since I was a high school student. It took me a lot longer than some other people to get to this point, and I feel lucky I'll have this opportunity. There is nothing anyone can say to me right now to make me doubt my choice. I don't know what will happen in the future: I'll let you know in a few years. Do I have concerns? Sure, such as whether I will be able to function with sleep depravation on the wards, whether I will be able to navigate a complex hierarchy of interactions in the hospital without having to feel abused (as some people who wrote here on SDN). I certainly worry whether I will be able to manage my time well so that I won't spend every waking moment studying. Stuff like that. These are important things, but they fade compared to the big one: I have a chance to do what I want. And it is the hardest thing in the world to do what we want, medicine or else.

It's funny - when I was pre-med, I NEVER listened to the horror stories about med school or residency or practicing medicine in today's lawsuit-happy atmosphere. I just kind of assumed that it would be different for me. You know - I'd work harder than they did, or I'd strike the balance that they never found, or I was more motivated going into med school than they were, etc. Then, somewhere along the way, I couldn't STOP listening to the horror stories from the residents - and I started believing them. I'm not sure when the shift occurred, though.

I kind of wish that someone had found the right words to make me understand when I was still a pre-med. It probably wouldn't have changed my mind, but at least the "thud" I experienced when my rosy pre-med bubble burst wouldn't have been so abrupt.

I was also concerned about the same stuff you were. If you find yourself in the position to actually worry about those things, be grateful. It means that you managed to survive MS1, MS2, and Step 1. Not everyone does.

Is it worth it? So far, it hasn't been so terrible. We'll see how it goes for the rest of the road. There have been some bright moments along the way. But there were also definitely some dark moments (okay, a LOT of dark moments) that I was not prepared for and definitely threw me off my feet.

 

[yyd]

-

 

[QuikClot]

This is one of the eternal discussions on SDN. One person will say that medicine is a terrible ordeal, another will counter that they love it, another will chime in that it has it's good and bad aspects, like everything else.

The bottom line of the matter is that Milton was right: "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make heaven of Hell, and a hell of Heaven." Everything in medicine, including school, can be enjoyable with the right frame of mind. Countrawise, there are people who are unhappy despite enjoying huge gobs of money, aurthority and professional respect. It's a matter of attitude. It's a matter of knowing how to be happy.

 

[Quix]

I can't speak to the medical school aspect of having a doctorate, as I'm still on the outside looking in, but clinically it's been interesting. The MD's with whom I work (and who are taking part in my studies) seem to see me as a bit of an oddity, while the MD's in my research group see me as a peer. None of them, however, seems to really care about the background of the medical students we encounter, so I suspect that you'll just be a well-educated scut monkey.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi all,

I recently got a PhD in neuroscience and will start med school this fall. So far, people who have learned about my plans for med school reacted with a disbelief and a shock. I find it surprising that the first thing people want to know is "how many years it will take me..." whatever: to finish med school, to finish residency. Medicine is something I really want to do, and I view the whole process as an expereince I want to have, not a number of years to reach a certain point. Thus I am bewildered by people's reaction.

Having received such a response, it also made me wonder: how do facultly at med school view PhD students? Are they tougher on us? Will my PhD be called into question by clinicians whenever there is something I don't know, no matter if it is relevant to my field of study or not? Or perhaps they generally don't care? Not that it matters so much, but I'd like to hear of other people's experiences with this.

I'm an organic chemistry PhD; I just finished my first year of medical school. My experience has been that most people think it's pretty cool. I was very fortunate to have a supportive PI who wrote me an excellent LOR.

To more specifically answer your questions:

1) How a faculty member views you will depend on the individual faculty member. There are some faculty (often, but not always other PhDs) with whom I'm on a first name basis. There are other faculty who probably don't even know that I have a PhD; I heard through the grapevine that one faculty member was actually incredulous when another student told him that I have a PhD....apparently, he didn't think I could possibly be old enough to have gone through grad school. I spent some time shadowing this one clinician who calls me Professor, which I assume is because he does know that I have a PhD (or maybe he just doesn't know my name!). We've never discussed it though.

2) No, I don't think the faculty are any harder on us than they are on the other students. I think the only time people have expected me to know more than other people do is if they're discussing research. That's always pretty funny, because I actually have LESS experience with biomedical research than many of my younger classmates do.

3) No one has ever called my PhD into question, but then again, we don't discuss the finer points of organic synthesis much in med school.

In general, medical school is very different than graduate school. It's a lot more hierarchical. When you start med school, you're a freshman. It is a lot like being a high school freshman; probably, most people will treat you like you don't know anything. Since you really don't know anything about medicine, it's completely fitting. 😉

Best of luck to you with med school. 🙂

 

[8744]

...Panda, I know you are disappointed/disillusioned by medicine, as you write in your blog...

Whoa. You're obviously not reading my blog as carefully as those pre-meds do in the handful of universities where it is required reading. I am nothing of the sort. I merely comment on the conventional wisdom as well as pointing out the dysfunctions of a medical training system that was designed by lunatics for lunatics.

This is not to say that everything about medical training is bad, just that some of the received wisdom from the old school is ridiculous. Any system, for example, that depends on sleep deprivation as the residency training system does or exploits otherwise intelligent people in what the AMA once called the last legal sweatshop in America is a system that can and should be criticised.

In our own small way, non-traditional medical students like me and plenty of others on SDN who don't buy into the current paradigm are paving the way for you guys to not get screwed so hard five or six years down the road when you start residency. Whenever I hear an old-school attending complaining about how easy we have it today and how they suffered I laugh and put another notch on my piece.

 

[8744]

I just want to point out that the maroon who wrote the article I linked yearns for the days when interns could be fired on the spot for any reason, worked as many hours as the hospital wanted to work them, and got paid even less than we do today.

As if. Times have changed. He basically longs for the days when residents were all geeky white men with no families, no lives, and no responsibilities outside the hospital and fellows like him, once they became attendings, were absolute monarchs of their little fiefdoms.

 

[yyd]

-

 

[lumbering]

old-school attending complaining

Wow! I read this article and completely agree with your assessment. The author comes off as a naive arrogant romantic.

 

[chrisjohn]

No one will care.

You'll have a leg up in neuro, but expect it to be different than your graduate work.

Good choice, BTW. Medical school rocks, don't let these fools tell you differently.

 

[Critical Mass]

You had just better do well in neuro 😛

Trudat!

Agree with most of the above. Nobody will know unless you tell them, and please don't have extra initials embroidered on your clothes or ask people to call you doctor. That would ruin your social life.

I left a Ph.D. program to do med school, and the environments aren't even comparable.

Best of luck.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

The only mistake I've seen a PhD make is going mano a mano with a professor in his area of expertise. A lot of what you learn early in medical school about disease is the basics you need to know for boards and when you get out on the floor, and the teachers realize this so you get the Reader's Digest version of some diseases. I've seen a PhD interpret that as the teacher doesn't KNOW everything about the disease and attempt to educate him/her which came off as very rude.

Here's a hypothetical situation based on a real one. First year neuro course, talking about MS. Teacher hits the buzz words, demyelination, autoimmune, relapsing/remitting, disseminated in time and space, INO, etc. A PhD student who had done time in an MS lab takes issue with a simplification the teacher made and attempts to correct her. You could tell the teacher was indignant and explained that she was aware of what the student was talking about, but his level of detail was too much for an M1 class and a lot of his information was still in experimental stages. Student came off looking bad with his confrontation. It should have been handled by talking to the teacher privately after class.