Starting Salary in NJ

[Scorcher31]

Hey guys, I know this obviously varies pretty significantly based on benefits and responsibilities, but I’m just trying to get a ballpark idea on what starting salary would be for a new BE adult psychiatrist in NJ (not right outside of NYC) or eastern PA (not philly).

So for a strict inpt or consult psychiatry job with good benefits (health insurance, malpractice, 401k match and or pension.) and limited in house call once or twice a month any estimates?

How about for the same job with very few benefits (no health, no malpractice, and no 401k/pension) and again limited in house call?

I have been seeing numbers all over the place on salary websites and think it might be getting distorted by people seeing a ton of patients in outpatient work. Thanks for any input you can give.

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[vistaril]

Hey guys, I know this obviously varies pretty significantly based on benefits and responsibilities, but I’m just trying to get a ballpark idea on what starting salary would be for a new BE adult psychiatrist in NJ (not right outside of NYC) or eastern PA (not philly).

So for a strict inpt or consult psychiatry job with good benefits (health insurance, malpractice, 401k match and or pension.) and limited in house call once or twice a month any estimates?

How about for the same job with very few benefits (no health, no malpractice, and no 401k/pension) and again limited in house call?

I have been seeing numbers all over the place on salary websites and think it might be getting distorted by people seeing a ton of patients in outpatient work. Thanks for any input you can give.

well most of the strictly consult psychiatry jobs are at academic centers with an attached resident program. So those are mostly academic positions(and even then some of the consult psychs often have some other responsibilities)

As for inpatient only, they generally pay ok but except for the VA you are looking at having to carry a high load if you want to do inpatient only. With occasional call and in non-govt positions, those jobs generally start out at 225k or so. Better than most in psych but then again it's not very glamorous work and the job will likely be pretty frustrating.

 

[Scorcher31]

Let me clarify when i was asking about strict intp/consult work, I pretty much just mean with no office hours/outpt work. Residents and teaching would be expected if i was at an academic center.

 

[vistaril]

Let me clarify when i was asking about strict intp/consult work, I pretty much just mean with no office hours/outpt work. Residents and teaching would be expected if i was at an academic center.

if it's an academic center and you are just joining as new junior faculty and are newly board eligible, the full time compensation is pretty standard(with occasional spread out/shared weekend call coverage): 150-160ish k.

 

[notdeadyet]

if it's an academic center and you are just joining as new junior faculty and are newly board eligible, the full time compensation is pretty standard(with occasional spread out/shared weekend call coverage): 150-160ish k.

Nice. Out California way, starting academic salaries can be a good 20k less than that.

 

[vistaril]

Nice. Out California way, starting academic salaries can be a good 20k less than that.

that is atrocious....I would refuse to work for PA/NP money....

the worst thing about the academic gigs, though, isn't just the pay but the no compete clause(within a reasonable distance) most of them have. If you could work a 155k job and then make an extra 40-50k by doing some side work salaried work after hours and some weekends(like I did saturday), that would bring in enough money to live comfortably....

But as it is now, academic gigs don't just pay 20-30k less than non-academic gigs because the non-academic gig that pays a bit more also is likely to let you work for yourself on contract work on your time off. Or do extra work for them(for extra dollars)....

So even though the initial difference in salary between a junior academic position and another starting job looks minor at 155k vs 180k....when you consider cherry picking a reasonable amount of off hours weekend and contract work, then 230k vs 155k *is* a big difference.

 

[JourneyAgent]

Nice. Out California way, starting academic salaries can be a good 20k less than that.

Damn. That blows. Academics Schmackademics! I got bills that got bills to pay.

 

[st2205]

Each state typically will provide salaries online for all state positions, which usually encompasses any academic job affiliated with a public university. I was surprised that a lot of the academic guys made quite a bit in my state (one guy makes 350k). Others were in the mid 100s but I'll have to comb through more of them to get an idea for the mean.

As an aside, I was surprised that nearly all the FT guys at the state hospital are making 300+k for a job that requires no call, no weekends, seeing your patients once a week and, from what I gathered in my rotation there, very little real work.

 

[vistaril]

Each state typically will provide salaries online for all state positions, which usually encompasses any academic job affiliated with a public university. I was surprised that a lot of the academic guys made quite a bit in my state (one guy makes 350k). Others were in the mid 100s but I'll have to comb through more of them to get an idea for the mean.

As an aside, I was surprised that nearly all the FT guys at the state hospital are making 300+k for a job that requires no call, no weekends, seeing your patients once a week and, from what I gathered in my rotation there, very little real work.

you are in utah?

Yeah, there was a big article about that awhile back(basically exposing how a handful states in the state hospital system) really overapy the staff psychiatrists, many of which are imgs from lesser programs and arent exactly thought leaders in the field...at least relative to other states. Utah was one of the states listed.

I think if you look at a lot of those 330k type salaries you will find that they are done with a lot of overtime of questionable need/value(basically watching tv in a room somewhere). The base salary may be 210k(generous for state hospitals), but then there is another 120k made from 1000+ extra hours....

It's weird because in some states you have staff psychs at state hospitals making 150-170ish with little extra hours available, and then in a few other states like utah(and california) making in the 300s is not that hard at all. And 400 is doable if you really load up on the easy overtime.

it is more a glitch/flaw in the system rather than something speaking to supply/demand. In general a lot of this speaks to how govt systems work though. Whether it's the VA or state govt. Just inefficient and wasteful. no reason that would be any different in psychiatry.

 

[st2205]

you are in utah?

Yeah, there was a big article about that awhile back(basically exposing how a handful states in the state hospital system) really overapy the staff psychiatrists, many of which are imgs from lesser programs and arent exactly thought leaders in the field...at least relative to other states. Utah was one of the states listed.

I think if you look at a lot of those 330k type salaries you will find that they are done with a lot of overtime of questionable need/value(basically watching tv in a room somewhere). The base salary may be 210k(generous for state hospitals), but then there is another 120k made from 1000+ extra hours....

It's weird because in some states you have staff psychs at state hospitals making 150-170ish with little extra hours available, and then in a few other states like utah(and california) making in the 300s is not that hard at all. And 400 is doable if you really load up on the easy overtime.

it is more a glitch/flaw in the system rather than something speaking to supply/demand. In general a lot of this speaks to how govt systems work though. Whether it's the VA or state govt. Just inefficient and wasteful. no reason that would be any different in psychiatry.

Looks like about half the faculty in academics make in 100s and the rest are high 200s. One guy made 422k. I've never seen anything remotely close to that, let alone a state funded position.

 

[JourneyAgent]

Each state typically will provide salaries online for all state positions, which usually encompasses any academic job affiliated with a public university. I was surprised that a lot of the academic guys made quite a bit in my state (one guy makes 350k). Others were in the mid 100s but I'll have to comb through more of them to get an idea for the mean.

As an aside, I was surprised that nearly all the FT guys at the state hospital are making 300+k for a job that requires no call, no weekends, seeing your patients once a week and, from what I gathered in my rotation there, very little real work.

Wow. That's a huge difference. More than a little confusing from where I'm sitting. I mean what's the draw of rolling 10 deep on rounds. Some kind of jay z effect?

I'd rather just slip in and out solo and get my work done. I mean it would be nice to teach and learn with students and residents....idk...very few of my attending seem to have any time for what to me would be quality interactions. So I'm having a hard time figuring out why people take a wallop in their salary if trifling with proxies seems like a hassle.

 

[kindasorta]

Wow. That's a huge difference. More than a little confusing from where I'm sitting. I mean what's the draw of rolling 10 deep on rounds. Some kind of jay z effect?

I'd rather just slip in and out solo and get my work done. I mean it would be nice to teach and learn with students and residents....idk...very few of my attending seem to have any time for what to me would be quality interactions. So I'm having a hard time figuring out why people take a wallop in their salary if trifling with proxies seems like a hassle.

Probably ego with a healthy mix of stupidity. The last thing I want to do is stare at some awkward phoney 3rd year every morning.

Get in, get out.

 

[vistaril]

Looks like about half the faculty in academics make in 100s and the rest are high 200s. One guy made 422k. I've never seen anything remotely close to that, let alone a state funded position.

oh there are lots of chairs at many programs who make a lot....I'm not a chair🙂 but I'd guess the average psych chair of a large university psych dept with > 20-25 faculty(clinical and research) makes on average 375-400k or so. And some probably significantly more than this.

The state hospital types, even though they are also listed in state salary surveys, really are a different ballgame. That's *all* highly state dependent. What UCSF pays their chair *isn't* that state dependent, because it's set on more of a nationwide salary scale. The chairs and vice chairs at UCSF, UCLA, etc are being recruited by other centers across the country, so the pay has to account for this. The staff psychiatrist in a utah state psych hospital isn't being recruited by anyone like that.....he is just overpaid and that's just a glitch in the system and an example of govt waste. Totally different situations.

 

[vistaril]

you also have to consider that the state listed salaries may not be 100% of that persons true salary for every faculty. Sometimes you have a medical school component, a clinical services component, and a hospital component. In some cases the medical school component and hospital salaried component may be represented, but only the guaranteed portion of the clinical services component for example.

 

[st2205]

oh there are lots of chairs at many programs who make a lot....I'm not a chair🙂 but I'd guess the average psych chair of a large university psych dept with > 20-25 faculty(clinical and research) makes on average 375-400k or so. And some probably significantly more than this.

The state hospital types, even though they are also listed in state salary surveys, really are a different ballgame. That's *all* highly state dependent. What UCSF pays their chair *isn't* that state dependent, because it's set on more of a nationwide salary scale. The chairs and vice chairs at UCSF, UCLA, etc are being recruited by other centers across the country, so the pay has to account for this. The staff psychiatrist in a utah state psych hospital isn't being recruited by anyone like that.....he is just overpaid and that's just a glitch in the system and an example of govt waste. Totally different situations.

This isn't a chair, though.

 

[vistaril]

Wow. That's a huge difference. More than a little confusing from where I'm sitting. I mean what's the draw of rolling 10 deep on rounds. Some kind of jay z effect?

I'd rather just slip in and out solo and get my work done. I mean it would be nice to teach and learn with students and residents....idk...very few of my attending seem to have any time for what to me would be quality interactions. So I'm having a hard time figuring out why people take a wallop in their salary if trifling with proxies seems like a hassle.

because most state hospital positions don't pay anything close to the 300s.(some pay as little as 140 for full time). Also, working at a state psych hospital(most of them at least) is pretty darn depressing. Morale is generally crappy. Working as junior faculty in an academic medical center is a much better environment, and you'll learn more too.

 

[JourneyAgent]

Probably ego with a healthy mix of stupidity. The last thing I want to do is stare at some awkward phoney 3rd year every morning.

Get in, get out.

yeah. I think I've had my fill of stilted nonsense in medical school to last a lifetime. If you can still get some camaraderie and collegial work relations then I don't get it.

Do programs want here you want to go into academics? It seems like every step people are asking about research and involvement with all manner or hooplah. What's their take on someone who just wants to get done and go to work. With at least the intention to do good work. Is that a ****ty sales pitch? And when does the salesmanship get replaced by work results?

Sorry. It's just this phoniness you speak of...I'm sick of it. Thanks for any insight.

 

[vistaril]

This isn't a chair, though.

well they are probably doing something to generate that and more then......if someone is making a bunch of money for a department(an actual rain man and not someone who is just doing the work that others bring in), he is going to get compensated for it.

 

[JourneyAgent]

because most state hospital positions don't pay anything close to the 300s.(some pay as little as 140 for full time). Also, working at a state psych hospital(most of them at least) is pretty darn depressing. Morale is generally crappy. Working as junior faculty in an academic medical center is a much better environment, and you'll learn more too.

I see. Hmmmm. Something to think about as I move along.

 

[kindasorta]

yeah. I think I've had my fill of stilted nonsense in medical school to last a lifetime. If you can still get some camaraderie and collegial work relations then I don't get it.

Do programs want here you want to go into academics? It seems like every step people are asking about research and involvement with all manner or hooplah. What's their take on someone who just wants to get done and go to work. With at least the intention to do good work. Is that a ****ty sales pitch? And when does the salesmanship get replaced by work results?

Sorry. It's just this phoniness you speak of...I'm sick of it. Thanks for any insight.

I really don't know the answer. Most of the places I'm interviewing at don't seem hell-bent on me wanting to do academics, but I still play the game and speak of fellowship desires blah blah blah, but in the end, once you have your foot in the door, you just show up, do the time, then get out.

 

[kindasorta]

I see. Hmmmm. Something to think about as I move along.

Or start your own operation and leave this sordid world behind. Any red-blooded American with some semblance of business-sense and affability shouldn't have any issue whatsoever doing this. You'll also make more money.

 

[vistaril]

Or start your own operation and leave this sordid world behind. Any red-blooded American with some semblance of business-sense and affability shouldn't have any issue whatsoever doing this. You'll also make more money.

depends on how you want to practice, how fast you are, etc....

if you just took the typical outpatient VA psych and actually billed all their would be billing codes(mostly 90805's) in any given year to the average of all insurances, and then set them up in a moderate overhead practice, they would lose money....I mean there net income would actually be negative(not that they would simply make less than whatever it is the va pays them).....

now of course if you just suddenly transferred all those people into a pp setup, they would obviously make changes so it's not a fair thing to do.

But the point is a lot of salaried psychiatrists in govt and academic positions come out far better salaried in thise govt/academic positions....the downside(or upside depending where you are at) is that some of your salary is for administrative work, education, etc...

Now pp or agency salaried is a different ballgame....if your salary is 190k a year and you are only bringing in 230k a year in total collections, they obviously arent going to be able to retain you.

I agree that a 'you eat what you kill' practice model is best, but unfortunately in psychiatry it doesn't always jive(or is it jibe?) with what an individual psychiatrist wants to do.....especially if they arent good at marketing themselves and selling their services.

 

[kindasorta]

depends on how you want to practice, how fast you are, etc....

if you just took the typical outpatient VA psych and actually billed all their would be billing codes(mostly 90805's) in any given year to the average of all insurances, and then set them up in a moderate overhead practice, they would lose money....I mean there net income would actually be negative(not that they would simply make less than whatever it is the va pays them).....

now of course if you just suddenly transferred all those people into a pp setup, they would obviously make changes so it's not a fair thing to do.

But the point is a lot of salaried psychiatrists in govt and academic positions come out far better salaried in thise govt/academic positions....the downside(or upside depending where you are at) is that some of your salary is for administrative work, education, etc...

Now pp or agency salaried is a different ballgame....if your salary is 190k a year and you are only bringing in 230k a year in total collections, they obviously arent going to be able to retain you.

I agree that a 'you eat what you kill' practice model is best, but unfortunately in psychiatry it doesn't always jive(or is it jibe?) with what an individual psychiatrist wants to do.....especially if they arent good at marketing themselves and selling their services.

Obviously when starting your own gig you can't slum it. But the motivation to not slum it is much greater when it's your own enterprise. As far as getting patients, it's not like you're starting a taco bar. You have the competitive advantage. There aren't many of you. If you have your heart set on living in Boston, I guess you're SOL. Thankfully I don't.