Statins bad, cholesterol good

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ans2021

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This has been circulating amongst non doctor people I know. Curious to hear thoughts on those practicing the specialty.

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Sugars [extra carbohydrates] get converted into fat if taken in excess. I guess he didn't read his biochem well in med school. His argument against statins and vaccinations is ridiculous. The reason childhood vaccines are spaced together is to prevent infants from falling sick and being irreparably damaged by the disease. I come from a country where I have had classmates suffering from polio-related disabilities. Every single time, it was someone who was not vaccinated [out of ignorance, unfortunately]. Granted the US does not have a lot of communicable diseases, so people may get away with not being vaccinated, but this has saved millions of lives in children in third world countries.

Just because someone says something completely against existing evidence [to gain popularity] doesn't mean it is true. A lot of patients who come with recurrent MIs or in-stent restenosis have all had a few common things.... Smoking, non-adherence to statins with crazy high LDL levels. We cannot force anyone to take statins or decrease animal fats in their diet, they can choose what they want to do. It is natural selection in the end lol!
 
The secondary prevention benefits for CAD, PAD, CVA, CAS, etc... are well established. There should be no arguments there

It is PRIMARY prevention in which I agree statins may be overprescribed

A provider SHOULD be using a risk score whether the AHA/ACC, Reynold's risk score etc... and should be counseling patients about it

However, too many times "LDL is red give statins." This is done way too often in the community.

Moreover, all guidelines state lifestyle modifications should be done first

Yes I get some patients are UNABLE to do diet and exercise as their ghrelin gremlins are through the roof , have leptin resistance, and have terrible restrictive lung disease, OSA, OA of the knees, and are unable to exercise.... this patient probably already has ASCVD or at least subclinical if you go scanning for it and should be on it for secondary prevention.... but my issue is how so many doctors themselves are out of shape and not necessarily eating the AHA recommended diet or doing the AHA recommend exercise time. Not everyone needs to be a fitness buff or in athletic shape (that is a personal goal), but I doubt most doctors are able to reach the AHAs 150 minutes of moderate intensity exercise per week.
Personally I work 80 hours a week (not seeing patients the whole time. Charting, computer work, writing reports, billing stuff, administrative stuff, educational stuff) but I am always active by lifting weights over the weekend and always standing up using a standing desk or desk riser and walking around in place while I type... NO EXCUSES OTHER DOCTORS !

My home take home is follow the evidence but under the population being studied and the clinical context.....

do not just go monkey see monkey do. LDL red = statin. pat self on back. we have mid levels for that, we dont need "doctors" doing that.
 
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If people don't want to follow my recommendations because they think they know the evidence better than I do, it's their loss.
 
Anyway aren't cardiologist's mostly involved with secondary prevention of ASCVD and hence statins have unassailable evidence for the patients they see with CAD, PAD, CAS, aortic syndromes, etc?

Most of my aforementioned criticism (monkey see monkey do LDL is red at 132 time for a statin. AHA 2013 risk calculator? I ain't got time for that I'm a busy Internist who is out of shape and can't be bothered to work out like NewYorkDoctors who works more hours than me) is directed at lazy internists and not other cardiologists. Pardon if anyone in this forum mistook my vitriol.

I run a primary care practice as well (as mentioned in other posts in the IM subforum). If someone has secondary prevention need, I am push the statins. I crank up the dosage to get the appropriate LDL levels per guidelines too.

It's the primary prevention population that I take a step back and I am not too hasty. Oh sure some patients ASCVD risk score comes out to 15%+ and I am also recommending it. For the "holistic crowd" I mention the monacalin K in red yeast rice just to play along a bit....

But fairly often time someone ASCVD Risk score is not even 7.5% and another primary care monkey just puts the patient on statins... at low dose and never bothers to get a proper 50% reduction in the LDL... Even if it were 7.5% to 15%, I am not certain a thorough discussion about pros cons and the difference between ARR and RRR was had.... aint no one got time for in order to maintain the "revenue / effort ratio" of a 99213 mill... it's also not hard to call the lab to add on hsCRP if one wanted to use Reynold's Risk Score... same SST tube as the lipid profile

my gripe is how many primary care providers just skip over the lifestyle modification step. no attempt is made other than lip service at best. it's all jump to meds.

What are patients to do besides resort to reading articles like those and drawing the wrong conclusions? (i.e. I have CAD but this article is on my side so I refuse statins despite my 3VD)


My personal issue is trying to get patients out of the futile cycle of Big Food feeding Big Pharma. Way easier said than done.
 

This has been circulating amongst non doctor people I know. Curious to hear thoughts on those practicing the specialty.
Most of the stuff in this article is inaccurate and the cited literature generally can't draw the conclusions the authors draw. In short, bull****.

Other than maybe the CoQ10.
 
I tried explaining the article is just wrong, and that just because 1 country of 8 has an opposite effect, doesnt mean that 1 country's results are the true results. One article the author had to add a disclosure that they had conflict of interest. Some articles no longer exist. One article the authors wouldn't even allow their charts to be shown in the article. People are going to believe whatever and no amount of truth will change their minds. Just crazy to me.
 
I am a radiation oncologist, not a cardiologist, but LDL refers to particles with a range in sizes -with the smallest being the most atherogenic- and therefore doesn’t have as high a correlation with CAD as it should. Lpa is probably a better test. You want very low density particles to be as low as possible. LDL is necessary but not always sufficient for CAD ie CAD can not occurr without excess cholesterol being deposited in the arterial wall. In fact, it is my understanding that those with pcsk9 mutations simply do not get CAD. Personally, if I had a cac above zero, I would take a statin, zetia and a pcsk9 inhibitor. Yes I know we don’t have the evidence yet, but there is little downside and CVD is the number one cause of death. (Disclosure, my cac is 0 and I take all 3 because of family hx. Remember the natural history of cad is very long, and 5 years is probably not enough time to evaluate the efficacy of some of these drugs like zetia in primary prevention. I believe there are also recent papers showing actual plaque size regression with very low levels of cholesterol attained with pcsk9/statin combinations.
 
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Take your statin and get A1c and at least fasting insulin rechecked in 3 months.

If either are creeping up, either try a new statin or ramp up the cardio.

Disclaimer: I am not a cardiologist.
agreed with all points


but lol comon now. if patients exercised the proper AHA 150 minutes of moderate intensity exercise per week, then they would not need to see the doctor.
 
I am an interventional cardiologist. So much BS in that article. I wish these homeopathic medicine folks didn't have to take such extreme stances. Life is about balance. You can create an argument about virtually whatever you want with "studies." Statins have been researched at nauseam and are (perhaps until recently with the new PCSK9 inhibitors) the single most powerful medication you can take to reduce your risk of ASCVD. Now with the more widespread use of IVUS you can literally see plaque stabilization and even regression once people treat their cholesterol. Aspirin today is being used less and less for primary prevention because statins have had such a profound impact.

Statin reduction of LDL is only a part of what they do which is why other meds that only reduce LDL haven't shown to have the same impact. Statins modulate platelet / endothelial function and stabilize plaques amongst things we probably still don't understand.

Aspirin is a far more dangerous drug than statins yet most people don't even think twice about taking that.
 
I am an interventional cardiologist. So much BS in that article. I wish these homeopathic medicine folks didn't have to take such extreme stances. Life is about balance. You can create an argument about virtually whatever you want with "studies." Statins have been researched at nauseam and are (perhaps until recently with the new PCSK9 inhibitors) the single most powerful medication you can take to reduce your risk of ASCVD. Now with the more widespread use of IVUS you can literally see plaque stabilization and even regression once people treat their cholesterol. Aspirin today is being used less and less for primary prevention because statins have had such a profound impact.

Statin reduction of LDL is only a part of what they do which is why other meds that only reduce LDL haven't shown to have the same impact. Statins modulate platelet / endothelial function and stabilize plaques amongst things we probably still don't understand.

Aspirin is a far more dangerous drug than statins yet most people don't even think twice about taking that.
totally agreed with you for secondary prevention of ASCVD. all points. cannot argue the unassailable evidence for the studied indications.
any patient with clear secondary prevention indications (and who will not do the 150 minutes or more of AHA recommended exercise, eat a non processed diet, lose a lot of weight, etc... maybe the elderly can't do these things) who try to go homeopathic and gonna end up with more hospital bills down the line.

However I am trying to view this from the perspective of a patient who seems to view doctors as puppets of the Big Pharma lobby. While most doctors are just trying to get the patients better and have no direct connections to big pharma (other than sales rep visits to office), this is exceedingly hard with the American diet. Many seem to be lamenting how Big Food / Agriculture seems to be working to get people obese and unhealthy from a young age and then Big Pharma swoops in to "keep their healthy enough to stay out of the hospital all the time but remain unhealthy enough to keep needing ongoing medical treatments." This reminds me of those cruise passengers from Wall-E.

While I empathize with this frustration for patients, the patient's mistrust of doctors is unfounded. Their turn to homeopathic remedies is a desire to "regain some of the lost power, autonomy, and control" that they feel they lack. Rather, these patients need to "gain their power back" by stopping eating processed foods and get physically active again from a young age.

But nope unlikely to happen at the mass population level. It has to start at policy level. Many patient's brain's limbic system are all messed up by ultraprocessed foods and are not easily able to get off of this.

Giving everyone semaglutide is not a real solution at the population level.


My solution for the motivated patients are it's time to lift weights and build muscle and do high intensity. Rationale being increase VO2 is "increasing metabolism" and hence can "maintain eating high calories to prevent hunger." but many individuals who have not been accustomed to exercise at a younger age just cannot get into exercise.

anyway, I just think these "homeopathic anti-statin" crowd should have their voices heard but I would lend them more credence (and their strategy might be more effective) if they actually got out and did the AHA recommended 150 minutes of moderate intensity exercise per week.
The same way I would give American communist (wannabes - these participation trophy snowflake Gen Z kids have never worked a day in their lives) more credence if they worked on a commune together rather than make youtube videos from parents basement.
This need not even be going to a gym! Walking around the home with a pedometer to really get those steps up while streaming TV or something is fine. Just don't sit on the couch while watching TV.
 
still all weight loss meds should be done as an adjunct to diet and exercise.

The barriers to diet and exercise are myriad though.
1) Policy level issues in which Big Food / Big Agriculture make processed foods ubiquitous. The Rockfeller university studies the ultra-procsessed feds led to greater weight gain compared to an isocaloric organic diet.
See Dr Hall's study from Rockefeller university
Anecdotally as an overweight child whose parents purchased the "40 pack snack pack chips and snacks from Costco because it was 'cheaper per unit'" who could not just settle for one pack at a time and had to eat 3-4 at a time, this all makes sense. those chemicals made it so tasty and wanted to eat more.

2) Inflation from reckless government spending makes it hard for the former middle class and lower class to afford "healthy" foods.
I wont get too political on this one. I will leave it be

3) maintaining calorie deficit is through calorie restriction alone tends to be hard and difficult. I am sure everyone has tried that before and had the "ghrelin ghremlins" creep up on them. The key really is increasing physical activity to augment the calorie deficit from the calories expended half of the equation. But due to many people's jobs, no one has time to "go to a gym all the time." True, but you can make a home gym to lift weights to increase muscle mass. Increasing lean muscle mass is how you increase your VO2 at rest which is "metabolism." Some individuals state "I don't want to get too big." You won't become like The Rock or John cena without a super serious workout regimen, calorie surplus and anabolic steroids. Don't worry about that laypeople. Otherwise just walking more steps is effective over time to help maintain a calorie deficit witohut having to reduce eating too much to avoid that hunger pangs that impair work performance.

For patients with bad joints, just walking is totally fine.

Of note, no one is spending millions of dollars to do a randomized controlled trial comparing walking 10,000 steps (which originally came from a Japanese exercise advertisement in 1865)
I find an academic doctor sneering at "walking 10,000 steps per day is not recommended because there is no evidence for it. I will settle for ozempic first" to be asinine. Show me your six pack academic doctor. Yeah i didn't think so.

10,000 steps or more is quite easy for those with a desk job if one does it with a standing desk or a desk riser. Hey it may not be as good as running (Greater Weight Loss from Running than Walking during 6.2-yr Prospective Follow-up) , but I am certain its better than being a desk jockey or couch potato.


anyway I am getting a bit off track. My stance is I agree with the cardiologists on this forum and the evidence that statins are great for secondary prevention of ASCVD and that cannot be argued.
I tend to take a step back for primary prevention and am not so quick to just "put on the statin because the ACCAHA 2013 r isk score is over 7.5% and then pat myself on the back" without A) open discussion with patient B) trying to get the walking and dietary efforts in knowing most patients do not have the same athletic desire I do C) investigating for subclinical ASCVD based on on guidelines.

My criticism is of patients who are spending so much energy trying to "get their autonomy and power back in their health by defying the physician and resorting to homeopathic remedies." I only wish these individuals would use that same energy to get that 150 minutes of moderate intensity exercise per week as the AHA recommends.



Side note, I looked into the ketogenic diet before and did it for a while. I also read some of the literature from the basic science standpoint and some limited clinical trials
It has the potential to be great but there are a lot of caveats . Many of these caveats are hard to follow for most people and will "instantly ruin the diet."
If one were to follow all of the following
1) COUNT MACRONUTRIENTS (this is hard and time consuming. requires phoen apps and food scales)
2) doing fingersticks for BHB levels and glucose levels
3) adhering to that ratio of 70% fat, 25% protein , 5% carbohydrates
4) eating "healthier unsaturated fats" and not just doing a dirty keto of high sodium bacon and cheese
5) giving up "social events" to eat "boring."
6) not have ANY cheat days to ensure ongoing ketosis
7) staying in calorie deficit (this really requires getting some kind of formal BMR assessment )

I don't personally prescribe this diet as most patients do not count macronutrients, will over eat and not maintain calorie deficit, and will sneak in more carbohydrates and end up just gaining adipose tissue weight.

Some patients get into the ketogenic diet themselves but I realize they are not doing it correctly. They just THINK they are getting healther when in fact they are not. but they "swear by it" because it is a form of "regaining their lost autonomy and power over their health." I tell them your mistrust of physicians is misplaced. You should be more mistrustful of Big Food / Big Agriculture / Big Processed Foods.

But I have seen many RDs and MDs automatically discount this diet without even considering its potential merits to the "right patient."
I think those people are just shills and unless those individuals show me their six pack abs, I cannot take them too seriously.



After this long rambling, I am just saying "what else would we expect from patients who feel disenfranchised about their health other than to resort to articles like those above?"
 
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