Statistician/newsreporter commits suicide and leaves elaborate website

[Leonidis I]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...-leaves-website-explanation-article-1.1429286

the website: http://www.zeroshare.info/

the site is making its rounds in social media and i've been reading it for the past half hour. he explicitly states that he isn't depressed. would you guys say that he is? or just narcissistic?

excerpt:

I was not depressed. Anyone who says I was is either ignorant or a liar. I stressed out at times – especially in the workplace, because my tendency was to work myself to death. But, I was “retired” for 18 months before I ended my life and I didn’t have any stress during that time. In some respects, I feel like I was retired the last 15 years of my life because doing sports statistics could hardly be considered "work". In any event, I can’t imagine anyone being more free of stress than I.



So, the major reasons adults commit suicide – health, legal, financial, loss of loved ones, loneliness or depression… none of those issues are relevant to me and, for the most part of my life, have never been.



I decided I wanted to have one of the most organized good-byes in recorded history and I think I will be successful. The key has always been to do it before it becomes impossible to accomplish what I’m doing now – because then it’s too late and I would simply be along for the ride to the inevitable cliff. And, that has always been an unacceptable conclusion to my life. I became convinced that had I waited even another few years, I would never have been able to produce this site.



So, I created MartinManleyLifeAndDeath.com which is prepaid for five years, as is SportsInReview.com. Whether it gets extended beyond that is up to others. Five years is as long as Yahoo would let me pay in advance.



Naturally, I've wondered what people will think about this. Some might consider it gutsy, courageous and preemptive, but I know from my research that most find suicide so reprehensible they will see it as an act of betrayal and cowardice - not to mention premature. It’s common to refer to someone battling cancer as “courageous” as opposed to simply following an instinct to stay alive. If trying to stay alive is showing “courage” then the only word for not trying to stay alive would be “cowardice”, right?


But, I decided I didn’t have the luxury of caring what anyone else thought – which is more or less my recipe in life anyway. Simply put, nobody can control what anyone else thinks and therefore, I decided I was not going to worry about it. Besides, being dead, why would I care? Nevertheless, I strongly believed that if a person seriously wanted to understand who I was and why I did what I did, they will read this site thoroughly… and if they do, they may very well either change their assumptions and opinions or at the minimum, modify them.



Even if I had lived to be a hundred, I would never have been able to say how much I appreciated my friends or family. Had it not been for them, I doubt I would have lived as long as I did. I was even fortunate to have a good relationship with both of my ex-wives. I was thankful for each of these people and for putting up with me despite being too blunt, too obnoxious or too arrogant... too often.



Trust me. I was content up to the last minute. The only thing I was sorry for is that by dying, I may have reminded you of your own mortality – and that seems to be a big problem for everyone else. Sorry. I also realized that some will say I cheated them out of the opportunity to say good-bye to me, but trust me... I knew what you thought and I knew it up to the last minute. You didn't need to say it.

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[nitemagi]

It's sad, though I do think it opens up an interesting debate, as to someone's "choice" to die as a measure of free will.

Having never examined the man, I can't comment on whether he was depressed or not.

I will say that not all suicide is from "Major Depressive Disorder." Gabbard once said he thinks we grossly underestimate the effect of a narcissistic injury [as the causative factor in suicide].

This is a question that comes up often in the C/L world, in those with chronic medical illnesses and thus low hope, or not wanting to face the physical difficulties of an illness. They often identify as sad about their situation, but that it's "expected." Many C/L psychiatrists you ask will say that if you treat the mood complaints though, the suicidality improves or resolves.

 

[TheRiddler]

Our culture allows you to do whatever you want to your own body really, as long as you follow two rules.

1. You must live.
2. You must have sex.

Seems like a guy who had a good life and decided it was time to go. Good for him.

 

[peppy]

None of us can diagnose him just from his writings. Still, just because someone says "I'm not depressed" doesn't mean it's true. I can definitely say that a divorced elderly white male with access to a gun would be on my "high risk for suicide" radar.

There are some hints in his writing that would make me wonder if he would have benefited from therapy to try to work out some cognitive distortions which may have been from depression. He seemed to view the world as a very negative, hopeless place (comments on all the disasters that have happened lately and the future economic collapse of the US), he mentioned that while he did have some social connections that they are "unemotional" and he perceived that they were not likely to be terribly affected by his death. That may not have been true (many suicidal people misjudge how their death will affect others). If it was true, that sounds like a rather lonely existence to me even though he denied being lonely. He may have benefited from working on finding ways to make more meaningful connections with others.He seemed to feel like he had little worthwhile left to contribute to life. It seems to me like he was hoping that by dying in a dramatic way, that he would feel more important and be remembered, instead of just withering away unnoticed as he feared. Maybe a therapist could have worked with him on finding less gruesome ways to try to feel important to others.

 

[vistaril]

. I can definitely say that a divorced elderly white male with access to a gun would be on my "high risk for suicide" radar.
.

not just based on that it shouldn't. Now if there is a major incident that places him on the radar to begin with(like a recent aborted suicide attempt), perhaps it is reasonable to then take such risk factors into consideration.

The vast majority of divorced elderly white males with guns(which is most white men) don't commit suicide in any reasonable time period after all.

The reality is in the debate over whether people should have the 'right' to kill themselves that it's a silly question. Because of course they do. If they want to, they go do it and just don't tell you or me or some other mental health worker. We can't read patients minds and know who is going to do it and who isn't. We only go buy what patients tell us("yes, I'm going to do it") and what they do(suicide attempts). If you don't tell people you're going to do it and you don't try to do it(and fail), we as psychiatrists aren't in a position to do anything about it anyways.

The real question should be- Should people have the right to kill themselves and announce to everyone(including law enforcement and the medical community) that they are going to do it? Because of course now they have the 'right' to do it....because they do.

 

[Jorje286]

Reading his entry "why suicide", it's really very hard to believe that he wasn't depressed, or at the very least disthymic. He was clearly not a content person with scant personal relationships. He also is obsessed with the competitive sporting ideal and probably he may feel let down for not "achieving" as much as he would like; and suicide serves an ending to his life of discontent and a fulfillment of his pride. It allows to see himself as "special among the herd" for choosing to end his life. I don't think you have to be depressed to commit suicide and I can see someone preempting the difficulties of old age without necessarily being depressed, but I don't think that's the case here. Then again, which comes first: the content of abstract thought or a depressed mood? I don't think it's always straightforward.

 

[digitlnoize]

This broke a couple days ago on Reddit and I watched it unfold then...meant to post it here, but never got around to it.

I was wondering if maybe there was a component of narcissistic personality disorder to all this. Certainly his writings about having the "most detailed suicide note ever" and whatnot could point that way...

The funny part of the story is he mentioned burying around 200k worth of gold and gave the Geo coordinates for it. It was for a public park in Kansas City. A bunch of people (~200) showed up that morning with shovels and started digging until the police stopped them. It was a thing.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/08/1...before-suicide-sparks-frenzy/?test=latestnews

 

[nancysinatra]

The reality is in the debate over whether people should have the 'right' to kill themselves that it's a silly question. Because of course they do. If they want to, they go do it and just don't tell you or me or some other mental health worker.

Exactly. It's only meaningful to talk about restricting "rights" if humanity actually has the ability to prevent the action in the first place. And suicide is hard to prevent. But on the other hand, it is not hard for society to prevent certain people from voting, or owning property, or attending university. So I can see us debating about those things being "rights." But when it comes to life and death, good luck.

It's no different than saying that murder is not a "right." Actually it is. I totally have the right to go out and commit some heinous crime. But if I do that, I'll probably go to prison. Still, a bunch of psychiatrists and lawmakers could never stop me if I was determined. I bet many of the former would like to think they could, though.

 

[nancysinatra]

Gabbard once said he thinks we grossly underestimate the effect of a narcissistic injury [as the causative factor in suicide].

And his views matter because, what??? Because he has published 1500 books on psychotherapy in the last nine years alone?

This seems like an area psychiatry has not yet explained very well. I can't tell if the death knell for the guy was the possible Axis II pathology or the overriding influence of a life spent doing sports statistics. Either could be fatal, that's for sure.

 

[nitemagi]

Exactly. It's only meaningful to talk about restricting "rights" if humanity actually has the ability to prevent the action in the first place. And suicide is hard to prevent. But on the other hand, it is not hard for society to prevent certain people from voting, or owning property, or attending university. So I can see us debating about those things being "rights." But when it comes to life and death, good luck.

It's no different than saying that murder is not a "right." Actually it is. I totally have the right to go out and commit some heinous crime. But if I do that, I'll probably go to prison. Still, a bunch of psychiatrists and lawmakers could never stop me if I was determined. I bet many of the former would like to think they could, though.

Not to get into semantics, but there is an inaccurate use of the word RIGHT in this thread. Per Dictionary.com, for example.

Right: a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral:
You have a right to say what you please.

Having the latitude to break the law doesn't mean the law or morality permits it.

I have the right to think about robbery, I have the lack of restrictions to carry out an act before being punished for it, but that doesn't mean that the law condones it or even permits it.

If a right exists, then there should be no punishment for exercising that right. In the case of suicide, there is no punishment, of course. But this is misleading to then extrapolate that it is permitted or acceptable (legally or morally). To believe as such would selectively ignore the legal implications of laws that strip civil rights to prevent suicide [temporarily], in the case of involuntary hospitalization.

 

[nitemagi]

And his views matter because, what??? Because he has published 1500 books on psychotherapy in the last nine years alone?

Yes. Sometimes it's useful to turn to thinkers/thought leaders for their informed opinions, rather than just anonymous posters on the internet.

 

[notdeadyet]

Not to get into semantics, but there is an inaccurate use of the word RIGHT in this thread.

Ditto this. Folks are confusing "right" with "ability."

Rob or kill somebody and tell the judge and cops you had the right. See the reaction.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I used to live right down the road from Mr. Manley. Reading his site made me cry for the loss of an interesting, beautiful person. Thanks for sharing Leonidis I

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Apparently there was an interview with one of his former bosses where they alluded to him having a lot of the characteristics of OCPD. I could see both depression and the idea of a 'planned life' fitting in quite well with that. As well as his chosen profession, his success at it, and the elaborate end-of-life planning including prepaying for a website...

 

[wolfvgang22]

Also, throughout his site he mentions not having kids or a spouse or any close family relationships anymore. He states several times here and there on various pages that he was never happy and did not fit in as an adult. He also intellectualizes a lot. I also found myself wondering about his personality style regarding perfectionism, some narcicism, and lack of belonging. He had a great sense of humor nonetheless. I bet he was a lot more loved than he thought.

 

[vistaril]

Not to get into semantics, but there is an inaccurate use of the word RIGHT in this thread. Per Dictionary.com, for example.

Right: a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral:
You have a right to say what you please.

Having the latitude to break the law doesn't mean the law or morality permits it.

I have the right to think about robbery, I have the lack of restrictions to carry out an act before being punished for it, but that doesn't mean that the law condones it or even permits it.

If a right exists, then there should be no punishment for exercising that right. In the case of suicide, there is no punishment, of course. But this is misleading to then extrapolate that it is permitted or acceptable (legally or morally). To believe as such would selectively ignore the legal implications of laws that strip civil rights to prevent suicide [temporarily], in the case of involuntary hospitalization.

I was just saying that if a person really wants to kill themselves they will. regardless of involuntary hospitalization. Simply because a person who wants to kill themselves always has the option to not tell others they are planning to kill themselves.

 

[nitemagi]

I was just saying that if a person really wants to kill themselves they will. regardless of involuntary hospitalization. Simply because a person who wants to kill themselves always has the option to not tell others they are planning to kill themselves.

Agreed. We can reduce risk, not eliminate it.

I was making the distinction between right and capability.

 

[whopper]

I'm of the belief that people should have some say in choosing to die and doing so with dignity. I had a case about a year ago, my first ever, where I thought the guy who wanted to die should've had that choice. For better or worse (better in terms of making my life uncomplicated), the guy's guardian wouldnt' allow the guy to die out of fear that someone pro-life would threaten to harm him.

What was going on was I had a quadraplegic patient with a serious speech disability and a G-tube and the guy's only thing he could do that he enjoyed was have someone pour Mountain Dew into that G-tube. He couldn't really communicate well, getting a sentence out of him took about 15 minutes and made interviews a test of endurance and frustration. I got out of him that he wanted to die and he was quite clear about it.

I put myself in the guy's position and thought that I would likely want to die too. I felt I had an ethical duty to discuss this because the patient pointed to me that he wanted me to let him die. I discussed this with the treatment team, and we finally got to the stage where I brought it up to the guardian.

The response was something to the effect of....

-No way doc. You think I want to even go close to that area? No way I'm going to be in court everyday for the next few months over this. No way am I going to be the guy on the news who is accused of wanting to kill helpless people. No way am I going to be firebombed by some nut.-

Well there you have it. I knew there would be no chance in heck of this every moving forward a quarter of an inch without the guardian even considering it. I don't exactly think this was right but I wasn't exactly feeling strong on fighting for this person to be able to die either.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I'm of the belief that people should have some say in choosing to die and doing so with dignity. I had a case about a year ago, my first ever, where I thought the guy who wanted to die should've had that choice. For better or worse (better in terms of making my life uncomplicated), the guy's guardian wouldnt' allow the guy to die out of fear that someone pro-life would threaten to harm him.

What was going on was I had a quadraplegic patient with a serious speech disability and a G-tube and the guy's only thing he could do that he enjoyed was have someone pour Mountain Dew into that G-tube. He couldn't really communicate well, getting a sentence out of him took about 15 minutes and made interviews a test of endurance and frustration. I got out of him that he wanted to die and he was quite clear about it.

I put myself in the guy's position and thought that I would likely want to die too. I felt I had an ethical duty to discuss this because the patient pointed to me that he wanted me to let him die. I discussed this with the treatment team, and we finally got to the stage where I brought it up to the guardian.

The response was something to the effect of....

-No way doc. You think I want to even go close to that area? No way I'm going to be in court everyday for the next few months over this. No way am I going to be the guy on the news who is accused of wanting to kill helpless people. No way am I going to be firebombed by some nut.-

Well there you have it. I knew there would be no chance in heck of this every moving forward a quarter of an inch without the guardian even considering it. I don't exactly think this was right but I wasn't exactly feeling strong on fighting for this person to be able to die either.

I'd want to die if I was in that patient's shoes also. I think people with terrible conditions like this or ALS, etcetera should be treated differently than persons with depression. But that's just like, my opinion, man.

The more I look at Mr. Manley's website the more I think he had Major Depressive Disorder but just knew how to intellectualize it and say the "right things" so we can't just check the DSM-IV boxes. I think with a close, careful reading of his website it is clear he was very depressed.

 

[birchswing]

I'm of the belief that people should have some say in choosing to die and doing so with dignity. I had a case about a year ago, my first ever, where I thought the guy who wanted to die should've had that choice. For better or worse (better in terms of making my life uncomplicated), the guy's guardian wouldnt' allow the guy to die out of fear that someone pro-life would threaten to harm him.

What was going on was I had a quadraplegic patient with a serious speech disability and a G-tube and the guy's only thing he could do that he enjoyed was have someone pour Mountain Dew into that G-tube. He couldn't really communicate well, getting a sentence out of him took about 15 minutes and made interviews a test of endurance and frustration. I got out of him that he wanted to die and he was quite clear about it.

I put myself in the guy's position and thought that I would likely want to die too. I felt I had an ethical duty to discuss this because the patient pointed to me that he wanted me to let him die. I discussed this with the treatment team, and we finally got to the stage where I brought it up to the guardian.

The response was something to the effect of....

-No way doc. You think I want to even go close to that area? No way I'm going to be in court everyday for the next few months over this. No way am I going to be the guy on the news who is accused of wanting to kill helpless people. No way am I going to be firebombed by some nut.-

Well there you have it. I knew there would be no chance in heck of this every moving forward a quarter of an inch without the guardian even considering it. I don't exactly think this was right but I wasn't exactly feeling strong on fighting for this person to be able to die either.

I've always wondered about your quotation in your signature, and this thread seems like one of the least off-topic to ask about it.

What does it mean to be able-bodied in that quotation? It seems that you are in the profession of treating people who are as likely to be able-bodied as anyone else (assuming that means you can get up and walk around) but who are stuck in some way for some other reason.

I suppose the quotation could be qualified to mean a person who is completely healthy, physically and mentally, and yet is still paralyzed. But there's often a reason a person is paralyzed. And the reason usually serves a function. If all the people who said they wanted a girlfriend or wanted a new job or a new life suddenly had it, I'm not sure how happy they'd be. Sometimes I think the state of wanting is exactly what we want and nothing more.

 

[Simann]

Interesting manifesto if I might say.

*Disclaimer: I am not a psychiatric clinician, just a pre-med student who is (probably to you all) jumping to a remotely educated conclusion)..but here we go...

Frankly, the key to solving any problem is first identifying that there is a problem.

This being said, given he was a statitician, he had been fascinated with analyzing variables, of what seems to be self worth, and empiracally ruling them out. To me it reads like he was so caught up in introspective analysis of his self worth that he ultimately came to the conclusion that his life was meaningless without continued motivation for success; that is regarding his statement about reaching the plateu of his career 15 years prior to his suicide, he simply felt he was more or less worthless to the world. This in itself to me is indicative of an underlying depression.

Let me know if this is remotely plausable...😕

 

[wolfvgang22]

Interesting manifesto if I might say.

*Disclaimer: I am not a psychiatric clinician, just a pre-med student who is (probably to you all) jumping to a remotely educated conclusion)..but here we go...

Frankly, the key to solving any problem is first identifying that there is a problem.

This being said, given he was a statitician, he had been fascinated with analyzing variables, of what seems to be self worth, and empiracally ruling them out. To me it reads like he was so caught up in introspective analysis of his self worth that he ultimately came to the conclusion that his life was meaningless without continued motivation for success; that is regarding his statement about reaching the plateu of his career 15 years prior to his suicide, he simply felt he was more or less worthless to the world. This in itself to me is indicative of an underlying depression.

Let me know if this is remotely plausable...😕

Yeah, one word for that is intellecutalization. I think Mr. Manley was hiding from problems, perhaps from a lack of belonging.

"Intellectualization is a defense mechanism where reasoning is used to block confrontation with an unconscious conflict and its associated emotional stress where thinking is used to avoid feeling." Glen O. Gabbard, Long-Term Psychodynamic Psychotherapy (London 2010) p. 35

With intellectualization you can have a person who appears cool, calm, collected yet detached from underlying emotions. It's more robotic and "logical" than human and feeling. Suicide can follow, as another way of running and not facing up to the underlying emotional problems. Jung states:

"the intellectual still suffers from a neurosis if feeling is undeveloped" C. G. Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections (London 1995) p. 167