Status of psychologists w/ script rights?

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MacGyver

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So New Mexico allows psychologists to get script privileges for psych drugs.

How many other states offer this?

Whats going on in NM?
 
Originally posted by Miklos
Don't know, but I think that it is a troubling trend, at least for those of us considering Psychiatry...

See http://www.psych.org/advocacy_policy/leg_issues/statecostex.cfm for a background.

Why is it worrying? If properly trained, psychologists who prescribe psychotropic medications will be able to serve more patients. This is why New Mexico passed legislation to give psychologists prescription rights. However, I completely agree that clinical psychology training programs should teach more of the basic sciences and have board examinations similar to the USMLE so that clinical psychologists could justify their knowledge of medicine and psychopharmacology.

Perhaps the introduction of a program that incorporates psychiatric and psychologic training is in order? The curriculum of such a program could focus on the basic sciences relevant to psychiatry, the psychological sciences relevant to psychotherapy, and incorporate research training. After all, are anatomy, histology, and related sciences REALLY important knowledge for psychiatrists? We can argue this, I'm sure, but think about what a psychiatrist does on a daily basis. Plus, the APA keeps urging psychiatric residents to pursue research careers. A program that incorporates proper psychopharmacology and psychotherapy education with advanced research training in the psychiatric and psychologic sciences could do a lot for both fields. Now, what would graduates of such a program be called? Psychologic psychiatrists? Psychiatric psychologists?

Thoughts?
 
In response to psychologist having script rights. The states that allow this are New Mexico, and I've been told also Indiana and Hawai. However, in New Mexico at least the psychologist pursuing these endeavors have to complete 400-600 hours of continuing education and then be supervised by an MD/DO for five years before obtaining their own license. So far, I've been told there aren't too many practicing PhD Psychologists chomping at the bit to do get involved in these programs. As far as the future is concerned, yes its a little bothersome for the future ( 15 -20 years down the road), but think about this, If you were a trial lawyer, you could have a field day in court against someone with a PhD prescribing meds that had not gone through years 3,4 of med school and then residency training for four years too. So I think a PhD malpractice insurance will increase and other potential corncerns they will have (legal and $$ and time investment), will deter many from going after script rights.
 
Originally posted by PublicHealth
Why is it worrying? If properly trained, psychologists who prescribe psychotropic medications will be able to serve more patients. This is why New Mexico passed legislation to give psychologists prescription rights. However, I completely agree that clinical psychology training programs should teach more of the basic sciences and have board examinations similar to the USMLE so that clinical psychologists could justify their knowledge of medicine and psychopharmacology.

Perhaps the introduction of a program that incorporates psychiatric and psychologic training is in order? The curriculum of such a program could focus on the basic sciences relevant to psychiatry, the psychological sciences relevant to psychotherapy, and incorporate research training. After all, are anatomy, histology, and related sciences REALLY important knowledge for psychiatrists? We can argue this, I'm sure, but think about what a psychiatrist does on a daily basis. Plus, the APA keeps urging psychiatric residents to pursue research careers. A program that incorporates proper psychopharmacology and psychotherapy education with advanced research training in the psychiatric and psychologic sciences could do a lot for both fields. Now, what would graduates of such a program be called? Psychologic psychiatrists? Psychiatric psychologists?

Thoughts?

I make no bones about it:

I wish to protect my investment in my medical education from people who are not physicians and in my opinion have not earned the right to script.
 
I have no problem with psychologists prescribing drugs as long as they go to med school first.

Seriously, what makes psych meds different from any other prescription drug? Not much. If it's too much of an inconvenience to go to medical school, you don't need to prescribe.

Saying more patients could potentially be served is like saying communism works in theory. Which is to say that in practice it just doesn't work. Look at nurse anesthetists. Some regions (i.e. Minnesota) allow them to practice without an MD, and this was supposed to help ease the shortage in rural areas. The reality is most of practice in well-served areas and compete with docs for jobs while providing lesser care.
 
If you are worried about psychologists taking jobs away from psychiatrists, don't be. It appears that the big rush in NM for psychologists to seek the extra training has not yet materialized. Psychologists do not want to practice in rural areas any more than MD/DO's do. What you should be worried about is RNP's specializing in psychiatry. They already have script rights ( under supervision by physicians) and I have witnessed them doing a majority of the med management at one Southern Cal inpatient hospital. It could be a trend.
 
PublicHealth,

the idea that psychologists should have script rights so they can practice in rural areas is nothing less than a smashing failure. Psychologists dont want to work in rural areas, just like MD psychiatrists.
 
I'll make the same point I made on the NP thread (also started by MacGyver, right?).

The concerns about psychologists having script rights is either overblown or missplaced. Here's why:

If there is some competency-based barrier to them having script rights, then the natural market for psychiatric/psychological services will render the threat impotent based on greater morbidity rates. Based on this assumption, practicing psychologists with script rights will have greater malpractice premiums and be at a dissadvantage in attracting patients. The market, then, for mental health will preserve the psychiatric physician at the top of the pyramid - where you would expect the more competant practioner to be.

On the other hand, if psychologists with script rights really CAN attain the same morbidity rates as a physician (for less money, no doubt), then the physician's position at the top of the pyramid is artificial. The market for mental health will necessarily drive the supply towards psychologists, not physicians. In this case, the extra training for a psychiatrist is redundant and wasteful and, therefore, offensive to a free market economy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that medicine is just like any other consumable good - it is dicated by the laws of supply and demand and chosen based on normal opportunity cost calculations by the consumer. Where an EQUALLY good product (the supply of mental health) can be had for less money (for instance, when a psychologist has script rights), no artificial "political" barrier is going to prevent the move from the costly product to the less costly and equally good product. Therefore, it isn't going to do the APA any good to lobby against these new laws unless they can base thier opposition in something more robust than mere political opposition (which, I'm sure to the people of NM was what it appeared to be). The barrier must be based on the actual effacacy of psychologists prescribing pharmaceuticals or the APA is destined to lose this battle.

There may very well be meaningful differences in the outcomes of psychologists and psychiatrists prescribing medications. That being the case, this is the ONLY thing the APA can rely on. If there ARE no differences, this battle is already lost despite how much the APA would like to preserve their position. So where are the studies? Where are the studies showing higher morbidity and mortality rates among NP's or CRNA's?

Judd
 
Originally posted by juddson
I'll make the same point I made on the NP thread (also started by MacGyver, right?).

The concerns about psychologists having script rights is either overblown or missplaced. Here's why:

If there is some competency-based barrier to them having script rights, then the natural market for psychiatric/psychological services will render the threat impotent based on greater morbidity rates. Based on this assumption, practicing psychologists with script rights will have greater malpractice premiums and be at a dissadvantage in attracting patients. The market, then, for mental health will preserve the psychiatric physician at the top of the pyramid - where you would expect the more competant practioner to be.

On the other hand, if psychologists with script rights really CAN attain the same morbidity rates as a physician (for less money, no doubt), then the physician's position at the top of the pyramid is artificial. The market for mental health will necessarily drive the supply towards psychologists, not physicians. In this case, the extra training for a psychiatrist is redundant and wasteful and, therefore, offensive to a free market economy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that medicine is just like any other consumable good - it is dicated by the laws of supply and demand and chosen based on normal opportunity cost calculations by the consumer. Where an EQUALLY good product (the supply of mental health) can be had for less money (for instance, when a psychologist has script rights), no artificial "political" barrier is going to prevent the move from the costly product to the less costly and equally good product. Therefore, it isn't going to do the APA any good to lobby against these new laws unless they can base thier opposition in something more robust than mere political opposition (which, I'm sure to the people of NM was what it appeared to be). The barrier must be based on the actual effacacy of psychologists prescribing pharmaceuticals or the APA is destined to lose this battle.

There may very well be meaningful differences in the outcomes of psychologists and psychiatrists prescribing medications. That being the case, this is the ONLY thing the APA can rely on. If there ARE no differences, this battle is already lost despite how much the APA would like to preserve their position. So where are the studies? Where are the studies showing higher morbidity and mortality rates among NP's or CRNA's?

Judd

There is no "natural market" for services, by definition as I can't put up a shingle and start medicating individuals tomorrow.

If I could, we could discuss the natural or free market conditions for Psych services.

In order to treat a patient and prescribe you need a license.

This discussion is about licensing requirements and priviledges, plain and simple.
 
yes, but the discussion needs to be based on science and studies, not just the blanket desire to maintain turf.

So what's the answer. Can a psychologist with scrip rights be as effective as a physician? That is the question you HAVE to ask.

Judd
 
are we assuming that every patient/client who passes through the doors of a psychologist has already been medically cleared? That's another arena where psychiatrists might have a bit of a leg up on PhD/PsyD - they are trained in general medical issues to tease out whether the pathology is secondary to a physical, medical illness vs. strictly psych illness. I think there's more to it than just have the training/experience to write scripts. We learn more than that in med school (I hope... 🙄 ).
 
Guys have u seen a community shrink working in a medcheck spot-15 minutes max for the whole job. Prescribing the meds is the easiest stuff to do in psychiatry- there was a study by TJ Crow in 90's which focussed on the lack of ebm in general psych practice.
Taht said, giving script power to psychologists does not make any sense if u want to maintain the vocation named MD-NP and others s can do everything that a MD can do.It's not the question of skill, but rather the decision-making process behind those skills. I can't recall if there has been any study as Judd has asked for and I do think it's extremely important to measure the outcome, but I doubt whether it'll reflect the true practice of psych-as most simple depression/anxiety d/o are managed by PCPs, so psychiatrists are left w/ the complicated ones, which skews the picture further.
Interestingly the psychologists themselves are not terribly interested in the job as mentioned earlier-malpractice premiums are definitely a deciding factor.
Just my 0.02
 
Somehow I very much doubt that there is no (or little) interest in psychologists wanting script rights or more autonomy. The very fact that the Apa (not the APA, of course) is lobbying HARD for these rights in all the states suggests that psychologists DO in fact want these rights. There's no question about it. Suggesting they don't is too optimistic.

Judd
 
Hi Judd,
I wasn't going to respond to this post since it appears to me to be an attempt at getting MD/DO to circle the wagons and bash other practitioners such as PhD/PsyD, NP, etc. but I changed my mind and decided to post just to support your excellent point: it's about OUTCOME MEASURES!!!
Currently, there are generally no psychologists prescribing in the US except for those who went through the Department of Defense (DOD) experimental project. PhD/PsyD in New Mexico are still working out the details of how to implement the RxP legislation (in conjunction with MD/DO by the way) and there is only one psychologist prescribing in Indiana (in a Native American reservation). So, the best outcome measures available are those of the DOD experiment. Following is the independent evaluation report:

FINAL REPORT (Part I)

MAY 1998


Prepared for: LTC Thomas J. Williams, USA, MS Program Director, External Monitoring of Graduates of DoD Psychopharmacology Demonstration Project Chief, Department of Psychology Walter Reed Army Medical Center Washington, D.C. 20307


Prepared by: American College of Neuropsychopharmacology 320 Centre Building 2014 Broadway Nashville, TN 37203

American College of Neuropsychopharmacology (ACNP)

Evaluation Panel Report May 1998

Executive Summary

The Psychopharmacology Demonstration Project (PDP) was undertaken by the Department of Defense (DoD) to determine the feasibility of training military clinical psychologists to prescribe psychotropic drugs safely and effectively. The first class entered the PDP in the Summer of 1991, and the last of four classes graduated in the Summer of 1997. The PDP produced a total of 10 prescribing psychologists who undertook post-graduate assignments at military posts scattered throughout the United States.

In January 1998, the DoD contracted with the ACNP to monitor and to provide an independent, external analysis and evaluation of the program and its participants. The ACNP Evaluation Panel was the chief mechanism for performing those functions throughout the program's lifetime. The ACNP Evaluation Panel did its work chiefly by means of frequent, periodic visits to training sites to observe, to interview significant participants, to collect data; providing external assessment of effectiveness and implementation of the PDP program.

In March and April 1998 the Evaluation Panel site visited all graduates of the program. Some had completed their formal PDP training almost four years earlier, and some were only nine months into the post-graduate period. This report includes much detail about the 10 graduates, the 10 sites of their assignments, and the 10 positions they filled. Our Findings and Conclusions, however, have reached beyond the individual. We examined the PDP as one particular training program and correlated its characteristics with its outcomes, as represented in the collective performances of the cohort of graduates.

After the Findings and Conclusions section below, an Introduction and a Brief History of the PDP provide short, detailed accounts of the PDP and the role, influence, and history of the ACNP and the ACNP Evaluation Panel. Next, is a Methodology of the 1998 ACNP Evaluation. Last, is a lengthy section that comprises the bulk of the report, 1998 Practice Profiles of the 10 Graduates. These Profiles report in detail the observations and findings of the 10 site visits. They are presented in sequence by service beginning with Air Force (three graduates), followed by Army (three graduates), then Navy (four graduates). Although there were three female graduates, only masculine pronouns are used to protect identity.

Findings and Conclusions

1. Effectiveness: All 10 graduates of the PDP filled critical needs, and they performed with excellence wherever they were placed. It was striking to the Evaluation Panel how the graduates had filled different niches and brought unique perspectives to their various assignments. For example, a graduate at one site worked lull time on an inpatient unit with his supervising psychiatrist. The psychiatrist said he preferred working with the graduate rather than with another psychiatrist because the prescribing psychologist contributed a behavioral, nonphysician, psychological perspective he got from no one else. On posts where there was a shortage of psychiatrists, the graduates tended to work side-by-side with psychiatrists, performing many of the same functions a 'junior psychiatrist" might perform. In another location, a graduate was based in a psychology clinic but worked largely in a primary care clinic for dependents, thereby providing cost savings for care that otherwise would have been contracted out. Another graduate was the only prescriber for active duty sailors in a psychology clinic that was located near the ships at a naval base. Yet another graduate was to be transferred soon to an isolated base where he will be the only mental health provider. His medical backup will be primary care physicians.

2. Medical safety and adverse effects: While the graduates were for the most part highly esteemed, valued, and respected, there was essentially unanimous agreement that the graduates were weaker medically than psychiatrists. While their medical knowledge was variously judged as on a level between 3rd or 4th year medical students, their psychiatric knowledge was variously judged as, perhaps, on a level between 2nd or 3rd year psychiatry residents. Nevertheless, all graduates demonstrated to their clinical supervisors and administrators that they were sensitive and responsive to medical issues. Important evidence on this point is that there have been no adverse effects associated with the practices of these graduates! Thus, they have shown impressively that they knew their own weaknesses, and that they knew when, where, and how to consult. The Evaluation Panel agreed that all the graduates were medically safe by this standard. In a few quarters, the criterion for "medical safety" was equated with the knowledge and experience acquired from completing medical school and residency, and, of course, no graduate of the PDP could meet such a test.

3. Outstanding individuals: One indicator of the quality and the success of this group of graduates was that eight out of 10 were serving as chiefs or assistant chiefs of an outpatient psychology clinic or a mental health clinic. Two of these chiefs completed their PDP training less than a year earlier. Other indicators of quality and achievement that characterized this cohort were present when they entered the program. They all had not only a doctorate in clinical psychology but also clinical experience that ranged from a few to more than 10 years. All but two had military experience. The characteristics that led to these accomplishments showed again in that this cohort overcame their limited background in traditional scientific prerequisites for medical school. They certainly suggested that the selection standards should be high, indeed, for candidates for any future prescribing psychologist training, be it military or civilian. The opinion of the Evaluation Panel was that the history of the PDP has established that any program with comparable aims must be a post-doctoral program.

4. Should the PDP be emulated? There was discussion at many sites about political pressures in the civilian sector for prescription privileges for psychologists. Virtually all graduates of the PDP considered the "short-cut" programs proposed in various quarters to be ill-advised. Most, in fact, said they favored a 2-year program much like the PDP program conducted at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, but with somewhat more tailoring of the didactic training courses to the special needs, and skills of clinical psychologists. Most said an intensive full-time year of clinical experience, particularly with inpatients, was indispensable. The Evaluation Panel heard much skepticism from psychiatrists, physicians, and some of the graduates about whether prescribing psychologists could safely and effectively work as independent practitioners in the civilian sector. The usual argument was that the team practice that characterized military medicine was an essential ingredient in the success of the PDP that could not be duplicated in the civilian world. The Evaluation Panel urged the graduates collectively to produce their own consensus view on what would constitute an optimal program.

5. Relationships with psvchiatry: Six graduates worked in close, gratifying, and harmonious partnerships with psychiatrists, one in an inpatient setting and the others in outpatient units. A seventh graduate had a similar, but more business-like pattern. The psychiatrists in these partnerships were very competent pharmacotherapists. The remaining three graduates were somewhat isolated from psychiatrists with psychopharmacological expertise. One graduate was an independent provider who directed a military division clinic, and, while the clinic had a staff psychiatrist, he was less experienced in psychopharmacology than the graduate--and openly admitted this. Their relationship also was somewhat strained. The other two graduates worked in very busy settings with other psychologists in one case and with primary physicians in the other. Each treated many patients with medication. Each had an expert proctor who was available by phone, page, and e-mail, but not first hand. Although both were only nine months out of the PDP, and they were doing excellent work by all accounts, the Evaluation Panel believed as a matter of principle that they would benefit more from the experience of closer daily liaison with an expert practitioner.

Continued in next post.
 
Continued from previous post.

FINAL REPORT (Part II)

6. Scope of practice and formulary: The practice of pharmacotherapy was restricted to adults age 18-65 for all graduates.. Six graduates had no significant formulary restrictions even though there were slight formulary variations among them. The Navy was most restrictive: One graduate who was completing a third year of proctorship could not prescribe lithium or a number of new agents. Another prescribing psychologist was the most restricted of all graduates. He could treat only active duty patients even though dependents and retirees attended his clinic, and he could not prescribe lithium, depakote, and some newer antipsychotics. The Evaluation Panel considered his restrictions unfounded and unreasonable. A few graduates' formularies comprised lists of specific agents instead of drug classes, and it was difficult to effect changes. The MAOIs were the most common exclusions, being included on only one graduate's formulary. It seemed to the Panel that most of the exclusions derived from someone's untoward local experience, and not from judgments about the graduate's competence. Most graduates regarded the current formulary restrictions as no more than minor nuisances.

7. Psvchologist extenders: The PDP was not designed to replace psychiatrists or produce mini-psychiatrists or psychiatrist extenders, and it did not do so. Instead, the program "products" were extended psychologists with a value-added component prescriptive authority provides. They continued to function very much in the traditions of clinical psychology (psychometric tests, psychological therapies) but a body of knowledge and experience was added that extended their range of competence.

8. Psychopharmacology educators: An unexpected benefit of the PDP was the extent to which the graduates contributed to the training of psychology interns. At every site where graduates were in contact with interns, they had initiated teaching sessions, seminars, or courses in psychopharmacology. At two sites the comments emphasized that the teaching was far better than that provided by psychiatry which tended to be either too abstruse or too glib about the subject. The graduates knew better where to pitch the level of discourse because they better understood the perspective of the psychology interns. Several of the graduates were active in teaching clinical psychopharmacology to residents and other physicians.

9. Career impact: Unfortunately, many graduates appeared likely to leave the service in the near future because of being passed over for promotion. The career impact of the PDP was complex and hard to evaluate. Promotion odds seemed to depend in part on whether one joined the PDP shortly before or well in advance of promotion opportunities. Whatever the reason, departure from service terminates further assessment of outcome (within the service). Those who remain in the service should be monitored annually to maximize the information which can be obtained from the PDP.

10. Variety vs. restriction of caseload: Three graduates had practices that included 90-100% active duty personnel, two had 15-20%. Two graduates treated 60-80% dependents. Three graduates saw no retired personnel, two saw 20-30%, and one had 75% retirees or spouses in his practice. With the exception of one graduate who treated inpatients exclusively, the large majority of the pharmacotherapy patients of the others had disorders in the adjustment, anxiety, and depression disorder spectra. Not surprisingly, the medicines they used were mostly the newer antianxiety and antidepressant agents, especially the SSRIs. On another dimension of practice, the proportion of the caseload treated with pharmacotherapy, there also were wide individual differences: Four graduates treated more than 50% of their patients with medication, and three treated 25% or less. The graduates who saw only active duty patients were exposed to the least depth and breadth of psychopathology, and they gained less experience with medications because of pressures against their use with the active duty group. The diagnoses made and the medications prescribed by the graduates were functions of the military outpatient sample. They essentially mirrored what psychiatrists did with the same population, and, in fact, they differed little from the private practices of the psychiatrists on the Evaluation Panel. The Evaluation Panel believed that the clinical and administrative supervisors should make efforts, whenever possible, to help the graduates maintain and sharpen their clinical skills by expanding the diagnostic breadth of their caseload. The increased diversity and range of severity found on the inpatient service make it an important potential site for additional experience. Family and primary practice medical clinics provide other options.

11. Independent provider vs proctored status: All graduates were initially proctored by psychiatrists. Half of them had advanced to independent provider status, with its standard minimum review of 10% of medication cases. Interestingly, all members of Group C and one from Group D-the last two classes to complete the PDP-were independent. Two other graduates were de facto independent providers. The clinical supervisor in one case and a department head in the other as a matter of principle and philosophy would not propose independent provider status for any prescribing psychologist. These two graduates were members of Groups A and B-one Navy, one AF-and each had been proctored for three years. Both were soon to attain "independence by transfer" through reassignment to sites that had no on base psychiatric oversight or backup. The Evaluation Panel viewed these two graduates as no less effective or safe than their peers. They were caught up in the problem of a lack of a DoD-wide agreed upon set of clearly defined steps from 100% supervision to independent practice.

12. A final comment: As the preceding synopsis and the following detailed report indicate, the PDP graduates have performed and are performing safely and effectively as prescribing psychologists. Without commenting on the social, economic, and political issues of whether a program such as the PDP should be continued or expanded, it seems clear to the Evaluation Panel that a 2-year program-one year didactic, one year clinical practicum that includes at least a 6-month inpatient rotation-can transform licensed clinical psychologists into prescribing psychologists who can function effectively and safely in the military setting to expand the delivery of mental health treatment to a variety of patients and clients in a cost effective way.

We have been impressed with the work of the graduates, their acceptance by psychiatrists (even while they may have disagreed with the concept of prescribing psychologist), and their contribution to the military readiness of the groups they have been assigned to serve. We have been impressed with the commitment and involvement of these prescribing psychologists to their role, their patients, and the military establishment. We are not clear about what functions the individuals can play in the future, but we are convinced that their present roles meet a unique, very professional need of the DoD. As such, we are in agreement that the Psychopharmacology Demonstration Project is a job well done.

Source: ACNP Bulletin, Volume 7, Number 3, Summer 2000

Peace, Gus

P.S. I'm a PsyD currently completing my last year of psychology residency and doing pre-med as I intend to become an MD or DO in order to have a psychiatry practice (however, while I have chosen this route for myself I don't believe-given the evidence-that psych PhD/PsyD-with appropriate post-doc psychopharmacology training-could not be as effective/safe/ethical pharmacotherapists as psych MD/DO).
 
Originally posted by juddson
yes, but the discussion needs to be based on science and studies, not just the blanket desire to maintain turf.

So what's the answer. Can a psychologist with scrip rights be as effective as a physician? That is the question you HAVE to ask.

Judd


We'll ask that question when you lawyers open up the field to competition from non-lawyers. Somehow I dont think thats going to happen anytime soon, and the reasons are just as selfish as ours are. You are a hypocrite, sir.
 
Originally posted by MacGyver
We'll ask that question when you lawyers open up the field to competition from non-lawyers. Somehow I dont think thats going to happen anytime soon, and the reasons are just as selfish as ours are. You are a hypocrite, sir.

Oh, this is total BULL****!!! I'm making a genuine argument. YOU are just being an dingus.

I've NO DOUBT that in some fields quite a bit of MD aversion to greater ancilliary medical care practitioner autonomy is due to a desire to maintain turf. As a future MD myself, it would be disengenuous of me to suggest that I do not also have these feelings. But, as a thinking, rational and honest person, I also recognize (unlike you, obviously) that these arguments don't have traction unless there is some non-political reason to suggest that NP's and CRNA's should not be doing what they are doing (or propose to do). As an attorney, I ALSO have the same concerns as any MD does - that is, to maintain turf. But as a thinking and rational attorney, I also admit (as I do as a future MD) that these concerns MUST be based on "outcome measures".

As Physchiatrists are threatened by psychologists, MDA's threatened by CRNA's and IM's threatened by NP's and PA's, so too is the attorney threatened by the acountant who already has the right to "represent" a client in certain tax courts and would propose to represent clients in many other types of courts. As in medicine, as in law, the question HAS to be whether the client is as well represented before the bench by an accountant as well as by an attorney. It is the same.

How is this hypocritical??!!

You have NO basis to know what my positions concerning accountants and paralegals practicing autonomously before the state bars are, and yet you presume to make a judgment based on those positions. How did you do this? By what trick of telepathy did you devine that I feel one way about MD's and yet another about attorneys on the very same issue?

These are rhetorical questions, of course - the answer is clear. A knee-jerk response to a reasoned and bona fide (and I might add, positive rather than normative) position offered by (gasp) a blood-sucking attorney.

In any event, as I have said, the views I have set forth in this thread are not normative but positive - a description of what is happening or what will happen (in my view) - not an illustration of what I think "should" happen.

This is twice now where I have tried to impress upon you (and your ilk) the importance of being a bit more circumspect about your (as a future MD) falability when it comes to medical malpractice and indespensibility when it comes to the autonomous practice by para-professionals. Just as physicians do themselves a GRAVE disservice by failing to recognize thier own limitations and potential for the commission of medical error, they are also bound to lose the turf war if they can't identify clinical differences in practice efficacy and outcomes between MD's and the various para-practitioners. For you OWN GOOD please recognize that a mere political barrier will NOT prevent NP's from practicing medicine as long as they are cheaper and provide an equally good service.

Whether they do in fact provide an equally good service is the question every MD should be asking.

Judd
 
Thanks Sasevan,

Thats exactly the sort of information we need to be looking at. On a more critical side, of course, long range civilian trials will have to be based on established and repeatable standards for evaluating the efficacy of psychopathology treatment between Psychiatrists and psychologists. It will have to be based on clinical trials where primarily patients evaluated upon objective guidelines rather than based on an observation of the practitioner himself, which can only generate seemingly subjective judgements.

My guess is that these sorts of studies have been carried out by various bodies (not doubt, principally by insurance companies) in evaluating the clinical competency of NP's and CRNA's.

Judd
 
Originally posted by juddson
This is twice now where I have tried to impress upon you (and your ilk) the importance of being a bit more circumspect about your (as a future MD) falability when it comes to medical malpractice and indespensibility when it comes to the autonomous practice by para-professionals. Just as physicians do themselves a GRAVE disservice by failing to recognize thier own limitations and potential for the commission of medical error, they are also bound to lose the turf war if they can't identify clinical differences in practice efficacy and outcomes between MD's and the various para-practitioners. For you OWN GOOD please recognize that a mere political barrier will NOT prevent NP's from practicing medicine as long as they are cheaper and provide an equally good service.

Whether they do in fact provide an equally good service is the question every MD should be asking.

Judd

I think that the political barrier may indeed come under attack by insurance companies who wish to save money.

The problem I have is that even if the Psychologist or NP prescribe improperly under physician supervision, who will become the target of the ambulance chasers?

After all, who is perceived to have deep pockets? The NP? The Psychologist? Most probably the physician!

Regarding malpratice, I support the creation of a new court system for medical malpractice, just as we have separate systems for Taxation, Customs and Immigration. (I think that this is the question EVERY MD should be asking: Why don't we have such as system?)

I believe it to be the only solution to the present mess, which favors lawyers.
 
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