Stellate for chronic CRPS 2 years out?

Started by schmee90
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schmee90

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I know that this has been a topic of conversation in the past but I have a patient with CRPS in RUE after ulnar nerve decompression in 2023. The patient and mother are adamant they want a stellate, have tried and failed therapies, DMSO, capsaicin, TCA, tramadol, steroids. They are adamant they want a stellate. They way I was trained and from literatrure I am aware of mostly "Complex Regional Pain Syndrome: Practical Diagnostic and Treatment Guidelines, 5th Edition, they really only buy you a short window of relief maybe a few weeks to help with therapy otherwsie not much of a role in chronic CRPS treatment.

Are other pain docs doing stellate or sympathetic nerve blocks for chronic CRPS patients (2 years out from event). I just dont see the benefit outweighing the risks, but wanted to see others thoughts. Am I too conservative, they way I am trained and the review of literature?
 
The patient and mother are adamant
I feel like that’s a negative prognostic sign right there. And I agree with you that they work for a few weeks typically, when they work at all. I’d suggest doing an axillary block instead. Much lower risk and will still get the sympathetics, plus they get guaranteed temporary pain relief from the block.
 
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I apprecaite the response I should be a a littel mroe clear, this patient has worked with pt multiple times for CRPS. Not intersted in going back to PT "Ive already know all the stuff they are doing with me at therapy". I agree with the thoguh for stellate to facilitate in intensive therapies or to toelrate therapies. My thought is just to do a stellate just because everly else tired up to this point has failed doesnt make sense, as there is minimal evidene for any durable relief unelss combined with PT, and best in wiht early CRPS. Mom and patient obviously upset as the surgeon who did the releaes said this needs to be done, but I said doesnt make sense to do stellate in this context.

Peripheral nerve blocks are intersting but I honestly have not been trained in that treatmet options.
 
I apprecaite the response I should be a a littel mroe clear, this patient has worked with pt multiple times for CRPS. Not intersted in going back to PT "Ive already know all the stuff they are doing with me at therapy". I agree with the thoguh for stellate to facilitate in intensive therapies or to toelrate therapies. My thought is just to do a stellate just because everly else tired up to this point has failed doesnt make sense, as there is minimal evidene for any durable relief unelss combined with PT, and best in wiht early CRPS. Mom and patient obviously upset as the surgeon who did the releaes said this needs to be done, but I said doesnt make sense to do stellate in this context.

Peripheral nerve blocks are intersting but I honestly have not been trained in that treatmet options.
Do you do ultrasound? ASRA and NYSORA have great reference pages that will show you the anatomy and sonoanatomy, and they’re not hard to pick up.
 
I know that this has been a topic of conversation in the past but I have a patient with CRPS in RUE after ulnar nerve decompression in 2023. The patient and mother are adamant they want a stellate, have tried and failed therapies, DMSO, capsaicin, TCA, tramadol, steroids. They are adamant they want a stellate. They way I was trained and from literatrure I am aware of mostly "Complex Regional Pain Syndrome: Practical Diagnostic and Treatment Guidelines, 5th Edition, they really only buy you a short window of relief maybe a few weeks to help with therapy otherwsie not much of a role in chronic CRPS treatment.

Are other pain docs doing stellate or sympathetic nerve blocks for chronic CRPS patients (2 years out from event). I just dont see the benefit outweighing the risks, but wanted to see others thoughts. Am I too conservative, they way I am trained and the review of literature?
I had a patient during fellowship with rue crps. Got a stellate q3months. She reported excellent results for about a month and some improvement for the remaining 8 weeks until her next injection.
 
A deflection but anyway...CRPS after ulnar nerve decompression. Failed to help patient much, patient went to Cleveland Clinic where they discovered a ligature around the ulnar nerve. I think the surgeon was eventually sued.
 
I apprecaite the response I should be a a littel mroe clear, this patient has worked with pt multiple times for CRPS. Not intersted in going back to PT "Ive already know all the stuff they are doing with me at therapy". I agree with the thoguh for stellate to facilitate in intensive therapies or to toelrate therapies. My thought is just to do a stellate just because everly else tired up to this point has failed doesnt make sense, as there is minimal evidene for any durable relief unelss combined with PT, and best in wiht early CRPS. Mom and patient obviously upset as the surgeon who did the releaes said this needs to be done, but I said doesnt make sense to do stellate in this context.

Peripheral nerve blocks are intersting but I honestly have not been trained in that treatmet options.
Figured I'd ask. Is the PT they've been going to specialized in treating CRPS? Things like desensitization therapy, laterality and mirror training, etc. I find stellate block alone doesnt cut it, as it really is just a bridge to intensive therapy like you said.

This is more academic but I've also had patients get admitted for nerve block with catheter and undergo several days of intensive inpatient PT, massage, etc for CRPS.

Last thing, do you really think its CRPS? (presentation is not better explained by any other diagnosis, actually meets criteria)
 
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A deflection but anyway...CRPS after ulnar nerve decompression. Failed to help patient much, patient went to Cleveland Clinic where they discovered a ligature around the ulnar nerve. I think the surgeon was eventually sued.

Hand surgeons have a lot of chronic neuropathic pain after surgery, and it is despite the majority of them doing great work. It is unfortunate for those guys, and happens in my practice quite a bit. Can't recall hearing about a lawsuit here though. I get referred pts with neuritis/neuralgia that aren't true CRPS, and it often improves quite a bit. I think the hand, wrist and elbow are small spaces and it is probably very easy to aggravate a nerve during some of those cases. A little inflammation or a suture or whatever. I also think a series of stellate ganglion blocks is helpful, and frozen shoulder accompanies a lot of these upper extremity cases. I do SSNB commonly on these pts.
 
i have a few patients get multiple sympathetic blocks, most lumbar sympathetics for lower extremity CRPS. off the top of my head, only 1 current patient has gotten repeat stellates and i think the last time was last year.

for these few people, they do express benefit from injections roughly every 3-5 months. part of the benefit may be due to the use of dexamethasone as part of the injection regimen.

could the benefit be secondary to steroid effect? yes, but for these individuals, their benefits are typically with reduced allodynia for a time duration much longer than the week or so that i would expect it to be steroid effect.
 
I feel like that’s a negative prognostic sign right there. And I agree with you that they work for a few weeks typically, when they work at all. I’d suggest doing an axillary block instead. Much lower risk and will still get the sympathetics, plus they get guaranteed temporary pain relief from the block.

This is the answer.

Put down the needle. No good will come of it.
 
I know that this has been a topic of conversation in the past but I have a patient with CRPS in RUE after ulnar nerve decompression in 2023. The patient and mother are adamant they want a stellate, have tried and failed therapies, DMSO, capsaicin, TCA, tramadol, steroids. They are adamant they want a stellate. They way I was trained and from literatrure I am aware of mostly "Complex Regional Pain Syndrome: Practical Diagnostic and Treatment Guidelines, 5th Edition, they really only buy you a short window of relief maybe a few weeks to help with therapy otherwsie not much of a role in chronic CRPS treatment.

Are other pain docs doing stellate or sympathetic nerve blocks for chronic CRPS patients (2 years out from event). I just dont see the benefit outweighing the risks, but wanted to see others thoughts. Am I too conservative, they way I am trained and the review of literature?
Dude, just do it and see what happens. No need to be conservative over such a small procedure. Be open with them about the low likelihood of success. If it flops, you have other options.
 
Dude, just do it and see what happens. No need to be conservative over such a small procedure. Be open with them about the low likelihood of success. If it flops, you have other options.
appreciate the feedback...sometimes i feel like I went to a good academic center with a good name (dont want to throw shade at it) but waaay to conservative, and feeling like i should change the way i practice, im a few years outside of fellowship.
 
Sympathetic blocks are technically considered to be diagnostic and not therapeutic. You can do it to confirm/rule-in the diagnosis of CRPS

Stellate ganglion blocks got really hot during COVID, remember all those chiropractors that started offering them? That’s probably why they’re so hopeful.

I would also get a cervical spine MRI if she hasn’t had one yet and double check she didn’t develop a radiculitis a few years later that she’s confusing with her nerve pain
 
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appreciate the feedback...sometimes i feel like I went to a good academic center with a good name (dont want to throw shade at it) but waaay to conservative, and feeling like i should change the way i practice.

Sympathetic blocks are technically considered to be diagnostic and not therapeutic. You can do it to confirm/rule-in the diagnosis of CRPS

Stellate ganglion blocks got really hot during COVID, remember all those chiropractors that started offering them? That’s probably why they’re so hopeful.

I would also get a cervical spine MRI if she hasn’t had one yet and double check she didn’t develop a radiculitis a few years later that she’s confusing with her nerve pain
appreciate te feedback...diagnostic in terms of sympathic vs non sympathetic mediated...not the actual diagnosis of CRPS correct, never read or heard of it ruling in or out CRPS. Call me out if im wrong please
 
appreciate te feedback...diagnostic in terms of sympathic vs non sympathetic mediated...not the actual diagnosis of CRPS correct, never read or heard of it ruling in or out CRPS. Call me out if im wrong please

General definition of the syndrome​

Complex regional pain syndrome describes an array of painful conditions that are characterised by a continuing (spontaneous and/or evoked) regional pain that is seemingly disproportionate in time or degree to the usual course of any known trauma or other lesion. The pain is regional (not in a specific nerve territory or dermatome) and usually has a distal predominance of abnormal sensory, motor, sudomotor, vasomotor, and/or trophic findings. The syndrome shows variable progression over time.

To make the clinical diagnosis, the following criteria must be met:

  • Continuing pain, which is disproportionate to any inciting event.
  • Must report at least one symptom in all four of the following categories:
    • sensory – reports of hyperaesthesia and/or allodynia
    • vasomotor – reports of temperature asymmetry and/or skin colour changes and/or skin colour asymmetry
    • sudomotor/oedema – reports of oedema and/or sweating changes and/or sweating asymmetry
    • motor/trophic – reports of decreased range of motion and/or motor dysfunction (weakness, tremor, dystonia) and/or trophic changes (hair, nail, skin).
  • Must display at least one sign at time of evaluation in two or more of the following categories:
    • sensory – evidence of hyperalgesia (to pinprick) and/or allodynia (to light touch and/or temperature sensation and/or deep somatic pressure and/or joint movement)
    • vasomotor – evidence of temperature asymmetry (> 1 °C) and/or skin colour changes and/or asymmetry
    • sudomotor/oedema – evidence of oedema and/or sweating changes and/or sweating asymmetry
    • motor/trophic – evidence of decreased range of motion and/or motor dysfunction (weakness, tremor, dystonia) and/or trophic changes (hair, nail, skin)
  • There is no other diagnosis that better explains the signs and symptoms.



Again, what do you gain by risking the procedure?
 
Allow me to bang on my naltrexone drum again.

Friday I had another LDN miracle to add to the pile. Not classic for CRPS, but close enough. Basically 100% relief starting 1-2 days after 4.5 mg/day LDN and sustained at the 2 week follow up. Had the problem for 10+ years prior. Her shoulder pain resolved as well. In other patients these results are generally sustained over the long term. LDN defiitley does NOT work for everyone, but I've had way too many success stories like this for it to be a fluke or placebo.

Here's her new patient note (mostly AI generated, so won't be perfect!):

Chief Complaint:
Chronic right foot pain involving the entire foot with radiation to the ankle, present since multiple foot surgeries, accompanied by right shoulder pain and cervical pain with associated headaches.

History of Present Illness:
Ms. Doe presents with chronic right foot pain that has persisted since 2011 following multiple surgical interventions. She describes the pain as affecting the entire foot with radiation extending up to the ankle and occasionally progressing up the Achilles tendon area. The pain is characterized as burning in quality and reaches a severity of 10 out of 10 at its worst. The discomfort is constant in nature, maintaining the same level of severity throughout the day, though it demonstrates significant variability with some days being pain-free while others involve severe exacerbations. The pain is notably exacerbated by prolonged standing, particularly during her 12-hour work shifts where she remains on her feet throughout the day. On these demanding work days, she experiences significant pain upon returning home. The pain episodes can occur spontaneously without apparent triggers, described as sudden onset where the pain grips her leg and causes throbbing sensations that can resolve just as suddenly. She reports that some areas of the foot have lost sensation while others remain painful. The pain follows the scar line from her previous surgeries and affects the dorsal aspect of the foot, lateral malleolus, and posterior medial malleolus region. She also experiences concurrent right shoulder pain that has been treated with physical therapy including dry needling approximately two weeks prior to this visit, which resulted in severe pain exacerbation requiring her to discontinue physical therapy. The shoulder pain is associated with supraspinatus tendon involvement and limits her ability to raise her arm and perform certain movements. Additionally, she reports cervical pain with associated headaches that she describes as migraines, characterized by pain starting at the back of the neck and radiating over the top of the head, sometimes presenting with aura and blurred vision, and frequently awakening her from sleep. She has a history of taking gabapentin 100 mg three times daily and has used Vicodin sparingly for severe pain episodes, though she prefers to avoid narcotic medications when possible.

Past Medical History:
Arthritis affecting the neck and back, high cholesterol, essential hypertension, migraine headaches, history of sebaceous cysts, previous dilation and curettage, and tonsillectomy.

Notes Reviewed:
MRI of the right ankle performed on 03/14/2025 at [MRI center] demonstrated tendinosis and low to intermediate grade partial-thickness tearing involving both peroneal tendons in the ankle and hindfoot. The study also revealed a low-grade sprain of the reconstructed anterior talofibular ligament, lateral hindfoot soft tissue edema, and a small amount of fluid in the common peroneal tendon sheath. Surgical anchors were visualized in the lateral malleolus and talar body with associated metallic artifact from previous surgical interventions. The patient has a complex surgical history on the right foot with four previous surgeries and is currently not considered a surgical candidate. A referral to [my pain clinic] was made by [PCP]. Previous conservative care measures have included trial of rest, activity modification, oral pain medications, physician-directed home exercise programs, and various medication classes including Tylenol, NSAIDs, oral steroids, anticonvulsants, and muscle relaxants starting 11/13/2024 with reevaluation date of 05/08/2025.

Objective:

Physical Examination Findings:
Tenderness:
Right cervical trapezius tenderness was noted, while left cervical trapezius showed no tenderness. Tenderness was present over the supraspinatus area of the right shoulder.
Range of Motion:
Cervical range of motion demonstrates some limitation with rotation and extension, particularly affecting the patient's ability to turn her head to certain positions due to pain and stiffness.
Neurological exam:
No specific neurological deficits were documented during today's examination.
Facet loading exam:
Facet loading tenderness in the neck bilaterally with rotation and extension
Joint exams:
Right shoulder examination revealed tenderness with palpation of the supraspinatus tendon area. Arm elevation and reaching around the back produced some discomfort, consistent with supraspinatus tendinitis.
CRPS exam:
CRPS examination of the right foot revealed hyperesthesia along the dorsum of the foot and ankle, right lateral malleolus, and along the scar line at the posterior medial malleolus. Light touch sensation was more intense compared to the unaffected areas, described as more tingly and producing dysthetic nerve sensations. No hyperpathia was demonstrated with repetitive tapping. No classic stigmata of CRPS were present in either foot.

Diagnostic Test Results:
MRI of the right ankle performed on 03/14/2025 showed tendinosis and low to intermediate grade partial-thickness tearing involving both peroneal tendons in the ankle and hindfoot, low-grade sprain of the reconstructed anterior talofibular ligament, lateral hindfoot soft tissue edema, and small amount of fluid in the common peroneal tendon sheath. Surgical anchors were visualized in the lateral malleolus and talar body with associated metallic artifact from previous surgical interventions. Mild degenerative changes were noted in the head of the talus on the lateral side and mild fourth and fifth TMT joint degenerative changes were present.

Procedure History:
Multiple foot surgeries performed since 2011 including anterior talofibular ligament reconstruction. Recent dry needling of the right shoulder performed approximately two weeks prior to this visit by physical therapy, which resulted in significant pain exacerbation.

Summary of Conservative Care for Insurance:
Date Problem Started: 2011 for foot pain. Conservative Care Period Start Date: 11/13/2024. Conservative Care Period Re-Evaluation Date: 05/08/2025. Physical Therapy Start Date: 2011. Physical Therapy End Date: Recently discontinued due to pain exacerbation from dry needling. Complementary Conservative Care Trials: Trial of rest, activity modification, physician-directed home exercise program. Medication Trials: Tylenol, NSAIDs, oral steroids, anticonvulsants, muscle relaxants, gabapentin. Total Weeks Conservative Care: Ongoing since 11/13/2024.

Assessment & Plan:

Right foot pain, multifactorial:
Assessment: Complex right foot pain involving the entire dorsal and lateral aspect with radiation to/from the ankle, present since multiple surgical interventions in 2011. MRI findings demonstrate tendinosis and partial-thickness tearing of both peroneal tendons with associated soft tissue edema. Clinical presentation suggests multifactorial etiology including myofascial components and neuropathic pain elements. There may be an element of complex regional pain syndrome and centralized pain affecting the right foot, given spontaneous outbursts of pain that do not appear to have specific triggers and altered sensory processing with hyperesthesia.
Plan: Initiate trial of low-dose naltrexone starting with one pill daily for seven days, then increase to two pills daily if no improvement is noted by day seven. Follow-up at 14-day mark to assess response.

Chronic bilateral neck pain with facet joint involvement:
Assessment: Bilateral neck pain that can be provoked with rotation and extension, suggestive of facet joint arthritis. Pain is associated with functional limitations including difficulty turning the head to certain positions.
Plan: Monitor for now. Future treatment options include diagnostic medial branch blocks followed by radiofrequency ablation if conservative measures fail. This typically involves a three-step sequence with two diagnostic blocks followed by radiofrequency ablation, which can provide three to five years of relief for cervical facet joint pain.

Cervical occipital neuralgia and migraine syndrome:
Assessment: Patient experiences pain in the neck that radiates over the top of the head, which could represent part of a migraine phenomenon or reflect peripheral nerve entrapment as occipital neuralgia. She reports classic migraine features including aura, blurred vision, and frequent awakening from sleep due to headaches.
Plan: Monitor for now. Treatment options include occipital nerve hydrodissection for peripheral nerve entrapment components. The patient may benefit from evaluation of small peripheral nerves including supraorbital and supratrochlear nerves that can contribute to frontal headache symptoms.

Right shoulder pain with supraspinatus tendinitis:
Assessment: Right shoulder pain that can be provoked with strain on the supraspinatus tendon with associated tenderness over this area. She has tried dry needling through physical therapy without improvement and experienced significant pain exacerbation requiring discontinuation of physical therapy.
Plan: Continue to monitor for now. Treatment options include supraspinatus tendon sheath injection or platelet-rich plasma therapy if conservative measures continue to fail.
 
100%. They get WAAAAAY more detailed than this too. I've started sticking a painfully detailed medical decisionmaking section in the HPI section (doesn't get faxed to anyone) as a love letter to the insurance company's AI reviewer. This is al AI generated, so doesn't take me more than a few clicks.

I'm still working on my own AI scribing product, which will include this as part of the package.

Here's an example from another patient on Friday. Just a 99214 follow up.

**Medical Decision Making (MDM)**

This note supports a **CMS Level 4 Evaluation and Management (E&M) service (e.g., CPT 99204 for a new patient or 99214 for an established patient)** based on Medical Decision Making (MDM). The criteria for a Level 4 E&M service require meeting or exceeding the requirements for **two out of three** key elements of Medical Decision Making at the **"Moderate"** level.

**I. Number and Complexity of Problems Addressed: (Limited)**

* **Lumbar Radiculopathy (Chronic Illness with Exacerbation/Progression):** The patient presents with recurrent right-sided radicular symptoms ("returned") despite a recent transforaminal epidural steroid injection (TFESI) performed on 06/30/2025. This indicates an exacerbation of a known chronic condition (lumbar degenerative disc disease with severe L4-5 foraminal stenosis) requiring re-evaluation and a decision for further intervention (repeat TFESI).
* **Cervico-Occipital Neuralgia with Trigeminal Autonomic Features (Stable Chronic Illness):** The patient reports complete resolution of headaches and facial pain since the last visit. Current management involves continued monitoring, with a plan for a trial of over-the-counter Afrin nasal spray if symptoms recur. This represents a chronic condition that is currently stable and being managed with a watchful waiting strategy.

*Rationale for Level:* One chronic illness (lumbar radiculopathy) is experiencing an exacerbation, and another chronic illness (cervico-occipital neuralgia) is currently stable. This combination aligns with the "Limited" complexity for the "Number and Complexity of Problems Addressed" element as per CMS MDM guidelines.

**II. Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed: (Moderate)**

* **Review of Diagnostic Test Results:**
* Review of 07/16/2020 MRI Lumbar Spine report, which details significant L4-5 degenerative changes, severe canal narrowing, and nerve root compression.
* Review of 04/04/2025 Comprehensive Metabolic Panel (CMP) results, noting elevated creatinine consistent with the patient's known CKD and slightly elevated alkaline phosphatase.
* **Independent Interpretation of Diagnostic Tests:** The physician independently reviewed prior injection imaging (e.g., fluoroscopic images from the 02/07/2025 and 06/30/2025 TFESIs) to assess "better dye flow at L4-5" on the earlier procedure. This interpretation directly informed the decision to attempt to replicate the technique that provided better relief, demonstrating the physician's independent analysis of test results beyond simply reviewing reports.

*Rationale for Level:* The independent interpretation of diagnostic images, combined with the review of results from two unique diagnostic tests (MRI and CMP), meets the "Moderate" level for "Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed."

**III. Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management: (Moderate)**

* **Decision to Proceed with a Minor Surgical Procedure with Identified Risk Factors:** The physician made the decision to proceed with a repeat right L4-5 and L5-S1 transforaminal epidural steroid injection (TFESI). This is considered a minor surgical procedure. Key risk factors and complexities identified include:
* **Chronic Kidney Disease Stage 3b:** This significant comorbidity increases the overall risk of any procedure, potentially affecting medication metabolism, patient fluid management, or contrast safety if relevant.
* **Complex Spinal Anatomy:** The patient's underlying severe L4-5 foraminal stenosis, grade 1 anterolisthesis, and intrathecal crowding add complexity and potential risk to the injection procedure, requiring precise technique.
* **Treatment Failure/Recurrence:** The recurrence of symptoms despite a recent prior injection necessitated a re-evaluation of technique, leading to a decision for "high volume" injection, which can carry its own associated risks (e.g., increased post-procedure pain/pressure).
* **Decision to Consider Surgical Referral:** The documented plan to "consider a surgical referral" if current measures fail indicates a pathway to higher-risk interventions, highlighting the severity and ongoing management complexity of the patient's condition.

*Rationale for Level:* The decision to perform a minor surgical procedure (TFESI) in a patient with significant identified comorbidities (CKD Stage 3b), complex anatomical challenges, and the use of a high-volume injection technique, coupled with the potential for escalation to surgical intervention, supports a "Moderate" level for "Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management."

**Conclusion for MDM Level:**
This note demonstrates meeting the criteria for a **CMS Level 4 Evaluation and Management service**. It fulfills the requirement of meeting or exceeding **two out of three** MDM elements at the "Moderate" level:
1. **Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed: MODERATE**
2. **Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management: MODERATE**
 
100%. They get WAAAAAY more detailed than this too. I've started sticking a painfully detailed medical decisionmaking section in the HPI section (doesn't get faxed to anyone) as a love letter to the insurance company's AI reviewer. This is al AI generated, so doesn't take me more than a few clicks.

I'm still working on my own AI scribing product, which will include this as part of the package.

Here's an example from another patient on Friday. Just a 99214 follow up.

**Medical Decision Making (MDM)**

This note supports a **CMS Level 4 Evaluation and Management (E&M) service (e.g., CPT 99204 for a new patient or 99214 for an established patient)** based on Medical Decision Making (MDM). The criteria for a Level 4 E&M service require meeting or exceeding the requirements for **two out of three** key elements of Medical Decision Making at the **"Moderate"** level.

**I. Number and Complexity of Problems Addressed: (Limited)**

* **Lumbar Radiculopathy (Chronic Illness with Exacerbation/Progression):** The patient presents with recurrent right-sided radicular symptoms ("returned") despite a recent transforaminal epidural steroid injection (TFESI) performed on 06/30/2025. This indicates an exacerbation of a known chronic condition (lumbar degenerative disc disease with severe L4-5 foraminal stenosis) requiring re-evaluation and a decision for further intervention (repeat TFESI).
* **Cervico-Occipital Neuralgia with Trigeminal Autonomic Features (Stable Chronic Illness):** The patient reports complete resolution of headaches and facial pain since the last visit. Current management involves continued monitoring, with a plan for a trial of over-the-counter Afrin nasal spray if symptoms recur. This represents a chronic condition that is currently stable and being managed with a watchful waiting strategy.

*Rationale for Level:* One chronic illness (lumbar radiculopathy) is experiencing an exacerbation, and another chronic illness (cervico-occipital neuralgia) is currently stable. This combination aligns with the "Limited" complexity for the "Number and Complexity of Problems Addressed" element as per CMS MDM guidelines.

**II. Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed: (Moderate)**

* **Review of Diagnostic Test Results:**
* Review of 07/16/2020 MRI Lumbar Spine report, which details significant L4-5 degenerative changes, severe canal narrowing, and nerve root compression.
* Review of 04/04/2025 Comprehensive Metabolic Panel (CMP) results, noting elevated creatinine consistent with the patient's known CKD and slightly elevated alkaline phosphatase.
* **Independent Interpretation of Diagnostic Tests:** The physician independently reviewed prior injection imaging (e.g., fluoroscopic images from the 02/07/2025 and 06/30/2025 TFESIs) to assess "better dye flow at L4-5" on the earlier procedure. This interpretation directly informed the decision to attempt to replicate the technique that provided better relief, demonstrating the physician's independent analysis of test results beyond simply reviewing reports.

*Rationale for Level:* The independent interpretation of diagnostic images, combined with the review of results from two unique diagnostic tests (MRI and CMP), meets the "Moderate" level for "Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed."

**III. Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management: (Moderate)**

* **Decision to Proceed with a Minor Surgical Procedure with Identified Risk Factors:** The physician made the decision to proceed with a repeat right L4-5 and L5-S1 transforaminal epidural steroid injection (TFESI). This is considered a minor surgical procedure. Key risk factors and complexities identified include:
* **Chronic Kidney Disease Stage 3b:** This significant comorbidity increases the overall risk of any procedure, potentially affecting medication metabolism, patient fluid management, or contrast safety if relevant.
* **Complex Spinal Anatomy:** The patient's underlying severe L4-5 foraminal stenosis, grade 1 anterolisthesis, and intrathecal crowding add complexity and potential risk to the injection procedure, requiring precise technique.
* **Treatment Failure/Recurrence:** The recurrence of symptoms despite a recent prior injection necessitated a re-evaluation of technique, leading to a decision for "high volume" injection, which can carry its own associated risks (e.g., increased post-procedure pain/pressure).
* **Decision to Consider Surgical Referral:** The documented plan to "consider a surgical referral" if current measures fail indicates a pathway to higher-risk interventions, highlighting the severity and ongoing management complexity of the patient's condition.

*Rationale for Level:* The decision to perform a minor surgical procedure (TFESI) in a patient with significant identified comorbidities (CKD Stage 3b), complex anatomical challenges, and the use of a high-volume injection technique, coupled with the potential for escalation to surgical intervention, supports a "Moderate" level for "Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management."

**Conclusion for MDM Level:**
This note demonstrates meeting the criteria for a **CMS Level 4 Evaluation and Management service**. It fulfills the requirement of meeting or exceeding **two out of three** MDM elements at the "Moderate" level:
1. **Amount and/or Complexity of Data to be Reviewed and Analyzed: MODERATE**
2. **Risk of Complications and/or Morbidity or Mortality of Patient Management: MODERATE**
What is your reason for writing a chart like this? I get the idea of trying to beat the insurance AI and ensure it doesn't get downcoded but this is just miserable reading for any human actually involved in the patient's care.
 
What is your reason for writing a chart like this? I get the idea of trying to beat the insurance AI and ensure it doesn't get downcoded but this is just miserable reading for any human actually involved in the patient's care.
Also, it feels like it would make it harder for you when you do follow up and you're trying to remind yourself of the patient to read through everything.

As a side note, I did read the note this patient sounds like they have more MSK pain (which I think you said in your assessment and plan but it goes to the point that is hard to kind of sift through).
 
Also, it feels like it would make it harder for you when you do follow up and you're trying to remind yourself of the patient to read through everything.

As a side note, I did read the note this patient sounds like they have more MSK pain than CRPS
Yeah, that was part of what I was getting at. Forget an outside doc reading this note. If I wrote this note and saw the patient a year later I would be very pissed at myself for writing this garbage and making me go on a scavenger word hunt to find any useful data.

Maybe if you're going to do this you should have a small section which contains actual useful information that's easy to read?
 
Also, it feels like it would make it harder for you when you do follow up and you're trying to remind yourself of the patient to read through everything.

As a side note, I did read the note this patient sounds like they have more MSK pain (which I think you said in your assessment and plan but it goes to the point that is hard to kind of sift through).
Like I said, not a classic case, but does loosely meet the criteria in Steve's post above. Moreover, like the patients who meet the criteria strictly, she responded dramatically to LDN.

As far as the medical decision-making section goes, no one ever sees this, although it would be uploaded to insurance company if they asked for the record. I send the assessment and plan section which, while also exquisitely detailed , includes all the relevant clinical information needed. All I need to do to figure out where I was is look at the bottom of the note. Consider also that I am simply copying and pasting this into the AI scribing software at the next visit. The AI can worry about how to factor in the prior data to the current visit.
 
That’s trash IMO. So obviously AI that for sure will lead to regulation in the future
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It’s our future. Our robots and the insurance robots making out while we and the patients watch from the sidelines.

Side note though, chronic illness with exacerbation is moderate not limited.
 
I went to a good academic center with a good name but waaay to conservative
I always have to remind myself that the majority of medicine isn't practiced in an academic setting. It helps me understand why behaviors are so different in real practice and the ivory tower. It also reminds me of this poem.
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If you don't feel comfortable with the procedure or the situation, then refer them on to so someone else. If you have a lot of experience with it, that's a very low risk intervention that will help them along their pain journey. It's not wrong to let them know you are not optimistic about it and do not expect it to fix things, but a low-risk intervention like this may help them get to a better solution down the road.
 
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It’s our future. Our robots and the insurance robots making out while we and the patients watch from the sidelines.

Side note though, chronic illness with exacerbation is moderate not limited.
Cartoon is really good. Haha.

AI may be our future, but AI generated notes that look like that are trash and IMO reflect poorly on the doctor. Not everyone may agree with me, and that’s okay.

It’s a sea of words and 95% of it is BS.
 
pretty easy to spot it as AI.

i would suspect that reviewers would also see it that way.
But does it really matter, if the information provided is true?

Strict documentation guidelines with gotcha moments because you didn’t say XYZ nicely is somewhat discriminatory against physicians who speak English as a second language, for example. AI helps level that playing field.
 
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But does it really matter, if the information provided is true?

Strict documentation guidelines with gotcha moments because you didn’t say XYZ nicely is somewhat discriminatory against physicians who speak English as a second language, for example. AI helps level that playing field.
Is it not true insurance companies have come under fire for AI surveillance of notes and have been criticized for using AI in denial of care? Am I wrong in that? It seems I remember hearing about that, but I could be wrong.
 
I’m afraid the ai reviewer isn’t far behind to review your notes. Essentially making it a zero sum game although you may have to use ai to check every single box so you don’t get denied.
 
i would suspect that reviewers would take AI generated notes with a higher degree of skepticism. to me, using AI suggests less actual thought process and less interest in truthful documentation and much more a desire to get something done specifically to dot i's or cross t's.
 
Cartoon is really good. Haha.

AI may be our future, but AI generated notes that look like that are trash and IMO reflect poorly on the doctor. Not everyone may agree with me, and that’s okay.

It’s a sea of words and 95% of it is BS.

T H A T ' S T H E P O I N T

"It's a machine's world, don't tell me I ain't got no soul."
 
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General definition of the syndrome​

Complex regional pain syndrome describes an array of painful conditions that are characterised by a continuing (spontaneous and/or evoked) regional pain that is seemingly disproportionate in time or degree to the usual course of any known trauma or other lesion. The pain is regional (not in a specific nerve territory or dermatome) and usually has a distal predominance of abnormal sensory, motor, sudomotor, vasomotor, and/or trophic findings. The syndrome shows variable progression over time.

To make the clinical diagnosis, the following criteria must be met:

  • Continuing pain, which is disproportionate to any inciting event.
  • Must report at least one symptom in all four of the following categories:
    • sensory – reports of hyperaesthesia and/or allodynia
    • vasomotor – reports of temperature asymmetry and/or skin colour changes and/or skin colour asymmetry
    • sudomotor/oedema – reports of oedema and/or sweating changes and/or sweating asymmetry
    • motor/trophic – reports of decreased range of motion and/or motor dysfunction (weakness, tremor, dystonia) and/or trophic changes (hair, nail, skin).
  • Must display at least one sign at time of evaluation in two or more of the following categories:
    • sensory – evidence of hyperalgesia (to pinprick) and/or allodynia (to light touch and/or temperature sensation and/or deep somatic pressure and/or joint movement)
    • vasomotor – evidence of temperature asymmetry (> 1 °C) and/or skin colour changes and/or asymmetry
    • sudomotor/oedema – evidence of oedema and/or sweating changes and/or sweating asymmetry
    • motor/trophic – evidence of decreased range of motion and/or motor dysfunction (weakness, tremor, dystonia) and/or trophic changes (hair, nail, skin)
  • There is no other diagnosis that better explains the signs and symptoms.



Again, what do you gain by risking the procedure?
I 100% agree, as i mentioned before never heard of literature that sympathetic blocks help with actual diagnosis. Sympathetic vs non sypmathtic mediated pain sure, but how clinically useful is that.

Was gonna say our healthcare system is starting to use AI. Some of the referring PCPs are piloting, notes are nauseating to read now, they went mildy helpful, to worthless, too wordy, not sure if anything is accurate so don't even read the note with any confidence that anything is accurate.

To be fair they have about 10 diagnosis and problems they are trying to address on one visit, as opposed to me, maybe its helpful for billing purposes but to communicate anything to another doc...worthless