Sticker Shock

[rainynights]

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[rushrhees]

I think about every school is about 40-50k a year all said and done.

 

[josebiwasabi]

not exactly sure what you were expecting... every school's total cost of attendance is around 50k.

just be thankful we aren't going to dental school paying 100k/year.

 

[feet2017]

$33,055 at WesternU

 

[rainynights]

I expected the tuition and fees to be around the $35,886 listed on the website. I was shocked to see the actual tuition and fees to be at $48,002.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I expected the tuition and fees to be around the $35,886 listed on the website. I was shocked to see the actual tuition and fees to be at $48,002.

I don't think any school has tuition and fees that high... You are probably including living expenses too....

Sent from my Nexus 4 using SDN Mobile

 

[jellybean2020]

I expected the tuition and fees to be around the $35,886 listed on the website. I was shocked to see the actual tuition and fees to be at $48,002.

I think I see where you're getting confused. The 1st year CSPM tuition is much higher because it includes the summer semester. So you're basically going to pay for 3 semesters. It's balanced out by a correspondingly lower 4th year tuition.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

I think I see where you're getting confused. The 1st year CSPM tuition is much higher because it includes the summer semester. So you're basically going to pay for 3 semesters. It's balanced out by a correspondingly lower 4th year tuition.

CSPM doesn't get a summer between years one and two?! Yikes!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using SDN Mobile

 

[jellybean2020]

CSPM doesn't get a summer between years one and two?! Yikes!

Sent from my Nexus 4 using SDN Mobile

Keep in mind they start clinical rotations early, so depending on your rotation schedule, you may get about anywhere between 2 weeks to 6 weeks off. But yeah school ends mid-May and classes start in July.

 

[ruprecht]

Looking at these posts, it seems like a real gamble of a field, 1/5 1/6 do not proceed to postgraduate training/licensure. Is there any tangible, or transferable real world value or marketable skills for someone failing to 'match' with the PDM degree? This is an interesting path to become a foot doctor with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and no assurances of functioning in that capacity. What is the allure?

 

[DrMarx]

Looking at these posts, it seems like a real gamble of a field, 1/5 1/6 do not proceed to postgraduate training/licensure. Is there any tangible, or transferable real world value or marketable skills for someone failing to 'match' with the PDM degree? This is an interesting path to become a foot doctor with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, and no assurances of functioning in that capacity. What is the allure?

I'm really tired of reading this over and over again. Podiatric Medical School is still medical school. It's hard, it takes intelligence. Having such low standards for admissions, there's definitely going to be students who don't have the intelligence to make it. However, Podiatry schools will take them on anyways. Why blame them, it's a business and they're pocketing those tuition fees. So, some will fail out, others will graduate with the minimum requirements. So, should we create new residencies for the reject graduates? That doesn't sound very alluring. Whose to blame? Podiatry schools, raise the admission requirements. Just my 2 cents, and I'm sure some people will get offended but you get my point. You don't become a Podiatrist because it seems easy.

 

[Telekinesis]

Man MD/DO have a residency for everyone. To truly have parity this must be standard for DPM programs as well.

 

[DrMarx]

Man MD/DO have a residency for everyone. To truly have parity this must be standard for DPM programs as well.

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/why-your-waiter-has-an-m-d/

"According to the NRMP, last year 971 graduates of U.S. medical schools were shut out, accounting for 5.9% of U.S. grads. Graduates of international medical schools fared even worse - less than 50% of them obtained a residency.

That means more than 7,000 doctors were left with a diploma that said “M.D.” but no guarantee they would be able to use it."

MD/DO Grads face the same problem. Maybe not as big as Podiatry, but it still happens.

 

[Telekinesis]

http://thechart.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/16/why-your-waiter-has-an-m-d/

"According to the NRMP, last year 971 graduates of U.S. medical schools were shut out, accounting for 5.9% of U.S. grads. Graduates of international medical schools fared even worse - less than 50% of them obtained a residency.

That means more than 7,000 doctors were left with a diploma that said "M.D." but no guarantee they would be able to use it."

MD/DO Grads face the same problem. Maybe not as big as Podiatry, but it still happens.

Yes but you have to at look what they wanted to specialize in. If they wanted to be a PCP they can.

Every grad cant be a plastic surgeon or derm. Alot choose to wait to get what they want. Look at the spots open every year in PCP residencies. Alot go unfilled every year.

 

[ruprecht]

Yes but you have to at look what they wanted to specialize in. If they wanted to be a PCP they can.

Every grad cant be a plastic surgeon or derm. Alot choose to wait to get what they want. Look at the spots open every year in PCP residencies. Alot go unfilled every year.

Excellent observation. Historically an "unmatched" MD will have opportunities--they may not "match" in their desired specialty initially, but there are positions for those willing to compromise. Furthermore, an MD degree is a value added credential that opens doors in any endeavor.

Referring to podiatry school as medical school is false and misleading. Try starting a thread at the Allopathic area proclaiming this belief. Podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine. A convincing argument contradicting this hasn't been made.

 

[DrMarx]

Excellent observation. Historically an "unmatched" MD will have opportunities--they may not "match" in their desired specialty initially, but there are positions for those willing to compromise. Furthermore, an MD degree is a value added credential that opens doors in any endeavor.

Referring to podiatry school as medical school is false and misleading. Try starting a thread at the Allopathic area proclaiming this belief. Podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine. A convincing argument contradicting this hasn't been made.

For the first part, I believe that Podiatry is a students desired specialty. I mean, Podiatry school is just a decision to specialize early by the student anyways. So, if they don't match they don't get their desired specialty. That's the risk the student takes, if you don't like it than go to medical school. Furthermore, a DPM degree isn't as valuable as an MD degree for the general consensus. However, any doctorate degree takes intelligence and ranking them is just absurd.

For the second part, I know I'm a pre-pod but saying Podiatry school is easy is misleading as well. Slacking off in Podiatry school with the belief that it's a cakewalk is just the mentality that gets you out of a residency.

In addition, I would never visit the Allopathic area of this form with that question because of the bias. Pre-Med students on this forum are so full of themselves, it's ridiculous. That's all I'll say on that matter.

 

[ruprecht]

For the first part, I believe that Podiatry is a students desired specialty. I mean, Podiatry school is just a decision to specialize early by the student anyways. So, if they don't match they don't get their desired specialty. That's the risk the student takes, if you don't like it than go to medical school. Furthermore, a DPM degree isn't as valuable as an MD degree for the general consensus. However, any doctorate degree takes intelligence and ranking them is just absurd.

For the second part, I know I'm a pre-pod but saying Podiatry school is easy is misleading as well. Slacking off in Podiatry school with the belief that it's a cakewalk is just the mentality that gets you out of a residency.

In addition, I would never visit the Allopathic area of this form with that question because of the bias. Pre-Med students on this forum are so full of themselves, it's ridiculous. That's all I'll say on that matter.

I did not say that podiatry school was easy. I remain curious regarding the allure of this profession: the uncertainties, debt, licensure, societal needs, and its perpetual exclusion from the mainstream. Rarely do first, second and often fourth year medical students have the certainty of what specialty they'll choose. Why not graduate to a position (degree) where life's options have some breadth rather than, after four years be caught without a choice?

With the evolving healthcare/disease management uncertainties, I believe someone mature enough to commit to hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt would demand a modicum of control with respect to their career, and options.

In a span of twenty, thirty, forty years, and on, plenty of things can happen, and decisions made in our twenties don't always reflect what we'd like to be doing down the road.

 

[SLCpod]

I did not say that podiatry school was easy. I remain curious regarding the allure of this profession: the uncertainties, debt, licensure, societal needs, and its perpetual exclusion from the mainstream. Rarely do first, second and often fourth year medical students have the certainty of what specialty they'll choose. Why not graduate to a position (degree) where life's options have some breadth rather than, after four years be caught without a choice?

With the evolving healthcare/disease management uncertainties, I believe someone mature enough to commit to hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt would demand a modicum of control with respect to their career, and options.

In a span of twenty, thirty, forty years, and on, plenty of things can happen, and decisions made in our twenties don't always reflect what we'd like to be doing down the road.

You are telling me that you haven't met a 1st year med student that has a goal of the specialty5 they want to go into? C'mon get real. There are MANY docs that I know who knew what they wanted go into when they were 1st years. Sure they looked at other options but they went back to what they knew would make them happy. I also realize that there are those who change their minds about their specialty. There are even those who decide that they don't want to do medicine after there 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th year. It's not the end of the world. Do what you love. I was talking to a guy a few weeks back who is applying to med school. He's 40. He had a successful career (not med related) and decided he wasn't doing something he loved and started something new. Good for him!

You are also saying that it's bad to specialize when you start your professional education? Say WHA??!! I guess podiatry school is the only professional school that you go into after your undergrad which specializes in one thing. Oh wait..

You are also saying that MD's and DO's always have a choice? So I guess my opthamologist can do my ACL surgery. I can also ask the ER doctor to remove a tumor in my hip. I am relieved that after they "specialize" they can still do all of those things. That's true right? It's a good thing they were mature enough to pick a career that allows them to do whatever they want whenever they want.

 

[ruprecht]

You are telling me that you haven't met a 1st year med student that has a goal of the specialty5 they want to go into? C'mon get real. There are MANY docs that I know who knew what they wanted go into when they were 1st years. Sure they looked at other options but they went back to what they knew would make them happy. I also realize that there are those who change their minds about their specialty. There are even those who decide that they don't want to do medicine after there 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th year. It's not the end of the world. Do what you love. I was talking to a guy a few weeks back who is applying to med school. He's 40. He had a successful career (not med related) and decided he wasn't doing something he loved and started something new. Good for him!

You are also saying that it's bad to specialize when you start your professional education? Say WHA??!! I guess podiatry school is the only professional school that you go into after your undergrad which specializes in one thing. Oh wait..

You are also saying that MD's and DO's always have a choice? So I guess my opthamologist can do my ACL surgery. I can also ask the ER doctor to remove a tumor in my hip. I am relieved that after they "specialize" they can still do all of those things. That's true right? It's a good thing they were mature enough to pick a career that allows them to do whatever they want whenever they want.

My post was very clear. I know what I wrote and what I didn't. There are often a few med students intent on a specific career, but for the majority of students concrete decisions are most likely made after the core clerkships, electives, or some other vector. If this concept remains elusive review some biographies of people who have several careers throughout their lives. This is not unique to physicians, however many have branched off into many directions.

As to your ED doc, or ophthalmologist, you'll have to ask them.

In my personal experience I have known a variety of specialists who, because of a disability, disease, personal choice, or some other life event change specialty.

Life is unpredictable, and being equipped to adapt to circumstances is more often than not, very useful.

If you're inclined to break this down to a tit for tat, because I said so challenge it merely deflects from my original question: What's the allure?

Podiatry does not seem to have any lateral career choices. I suspect the recent unmatched graduates are not as enthusiastic and would not be as taunting today as they were when they set off on their path.

I don't doubt that anyone with the basic skills, depending on age, physical condition, and motivation can be retrained. I can speak from personal experience that there are plenty of [xxx] who've switched careers in their 40s or 50s. Some to FP, some went on to residencies in psychiatry, radiology, or law school.

But my personal experience has no bearing on the topic, as does my cousin's best friend's barber.

 

[golfandmedicine]

Excellent observation. Historically an "unmatched" MD will have opportunities--they may not "match" in their desired specialty initially, but there are positions for those willing to compromise. Furthermore, an MD degree is a value added credential that opens doors in any endeavor.

Referring to podiatry school as medical school is false and misleading. Try starting a thread at the Allopathic area proclaiming this belief. Podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine. A convincing argument contradicting this hasn't been made.

I dont want to flame you for this, or come off as if I dont understand what you are trying to say, but saying "podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine" is not correct at all. Had you stated a podiatry degree is a DPM and a medical degree in a more general manner is an MD or DO then that would be more politically correct.

First off, in case you do not know what DPM stands for, it means Doctor of Podiatric Medicine. So lets go ahead and agree that a podiatry degree is in fact a medical degree.

Secondly, at DMU and other schools as well, DPM students sit in the same classes as DO students (MD's at Scholl for some classes). At DMU for instance, all of the classes are taken with the DO students with the exception of the osteopathic manipulation class the DO students take while the DPM students are taking a lower limb specific class.

With that said, the difference from an MD/DO in terms of the first 2 years curriculum should be that DO students take their osteopathic specific class... the difference from a DO to a DPM in this same time span is the extra lower limb class. Therefore, DO's and DPM's should theoretically be learning the exact same information with the addition of their specialized field knowledge as their MD counterparts.

If you dont want to believe this, call NYCPM and inquire about the Dr teaching there that wrote the book in which nearly every medical school uses for the course. I just cant remember which course it is or I would let you know.

In this regard, it seems rather peculiar to state that an MD is medicine and a DPM is not, (which is what your statement seemed to be applying) as they should be learning precisely the same things. It would make more sense to be at the understanding that these degrees (MD/DO/DPM) are all designed to serve a different role in healthcare, and therefore are different.

The point I am trying to make is simply that a DPM degree is a medical degree, it just has a different purpose than the traditional MD degree. For me personally, when I broke my foot I asked the podiatrist if I could shadow them, and I loved it when I did. This came after shadowing Cardiologists, FP's, surgeon's, and IM docs that for the most part advised me not to go into medicine.

So whats the allure? Finding a potential profession as a young adult that has me excited for my future, everything I will learn in the coming years, and all of the pathologies I will treat as a DPM. It clicked for me, and I do not think it is for everyone. To those people that do not see the "allure" I would advise them not to enter the profession and try the MD or DO route.

 

[DrMarx]

I dont want to flame you for this, or come off as if I dont understand what you are trying to say, but saying "podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine" is not correct at all. Had you stated a podiatry degree is a DPM and a medical degree in a more general manner is an MD or DO then that would be more politically correct.

First off, in case you do not know what DPM stands for, it means Doctor of Podiatric Medicine. So lets go ahead and agree that a podiatry degree is in fact a medical degree.

Secondly, at DMU and other schools as well, DPM students sit in the same classes as DO students (MD's at Scholl for some classes). At DMU for instance, all of the classes are taken with the DO students with the exception of the osteopathic manipulation class the DO students take while the DPM students are taking a lower limb specific class.

With that said, the difference from an MD/DO in terms of the first 2 years curriculum should be that DO students take their osteopathic specific class... the difference from a DO to a DPM in this same time span is the extra lower limb class. Therefore, DO's and DPM's should theoretically be learning the exact same information with the addition of their specialized field knowledge as their MD counterparts.

If you dont want to believe this, call NYCPM and inquire about the Dr teaching there that wrote the book in which nearly every medical school uses for the course. I just cant remember which course it is or I would let you know.

In this regard, it seems rather peculiar to state that an MD is medicine and a DPM is not, (which is what your statement seemed to be applying) as they should be learning precisely the same things. It would make more sense to be at the understanding that these degrees (MD/DO/DPM) are all designed to serve a different role in healthcare, and therefore are different.

The point I am trying to make is simply that a DPM degree is a medical degree, it just has a different purpose than the traditional MD degree. For me personally, when I broke my foot I asked the podiatrist if I could shadow them, and I loved it when I did. This came after shadowing Cardiologists, FP's, surgeon's, and IM docs that for the most part advised me not to go into medicine.

So whats the allure? Finding a potential profession as a young adult that has me excited for my future, everything I will learn in the coming years, and all of the pathologies I will treat as a DPM. It clicked for me, and I do not think it is for everyone. To those people that do not see the "allure" I would advise them not to enter the profession and try the MD or DO route.

I'm pretty sure he's a troll, or just really out of touch with people.

 

[golfandmedicine]

im not a troll lol, just been studying pretty hard for finals all week so maybe im losing it if it seems im out of touch with reality... feel free to disregard my post.

 

[DrMarx]

im not a troll lol, just been studying pretty hard for finals all week so maybe im losing it if it seems im out of touch with reality... feel free to disregard my post.

No not you, the guy you were responding to lol

 

[SLC]

I dont want to flame you for this, or come off as if I dont understand what you are trying to say, but saying "podiatry is podiatry, medicine is medicine" is not correct at all. Had you stated a podiatry degree is a DPM and a medical degree in a more general manner is an MD or DO then that would be more politically correct.

First off, in case you do not know what DPM stands for, it means Doctor of Podiatric Medicine. So lets go ahead and agree that a podiatry degree is in fact a medical degree.

Don't get too worked up about this, some MD students don't like to acknowledge that DO's are on their level either. I can't tell you how many times I've heard my colleagues say "Our degree is Medical Doctor, DO is Doctor of Osteopathy, Osteopathy is not medicine". Doesn't matter in the end because they're wrong. When all is said and done, their DO counterparts will have identical scope of practice, and career opportunities. How can anyone honestly argue that one is a medical doctor and the other is not?

Secondly, at DMU and other schools as well, DPM students sit in the same classes as DO students (MD's at Scholl for some classes). At DMU for instance, all of the classes are taken with the DO students with the exception of the osteopathic manipulation class the DO students take while the DPM students are taking a lower limb specific class.

Be careful here though, because unless I'm mistaken the didactics are where the siilarities end. You guys don't do Derm or Cards rotations do you? I understand you do surgery rotations but are they general surgery or lower limb surgery? Do you do things like ER or ObGyn?

Dental students often share classes with MD/DO for the first two years, but the curricular similarities end right there.

With that said, the difference from an MD/DO in terms of the first 2 years curriculum should be that DO students take their osteopathic specific class... the difference from a DO to a DPM in this same time span is the extra lower limb class. Therefore, DO's and DPM's should theoretically be learning the exact same information with the addition of their specialized field knowledge as their MD counterparts.

Can't argue with this, as long as your class schedules are identical and you are tested identically/held to the same standards.

If that is the case, how difficult would it be for a DPM student at DMU to transfer to the DO program at the end of 2nd year should they decide that's what they wanted to do?

In this regard, it seems rather peculiar to state that an MD is medicine and a DPM is not, (which is what your statement seemed to be applying) as they should be learning precisely the same things. It would make more sense to be at the understanding that these degrees (MD/DO/DPM) are all designed to serve a different role in healthcare, and therefore are different.

I don't think it's dishonest to say they learn the same things as long as that's really the case. But it's been my understanding (perhaps flawed) that DPM's and MD/DO diverge at the end of 2nd year. So in that way they don't actually learn the same things and by extension are not both "medicine" in the traditional sense. People use "medicine" to signify the well-rounded general medical education that an MD/DO receives, not any medical professional who takes the full battery of physical and clinical sciences gets that same broad education.

The point I am trying to make is simply that a DPM degree is a medical degree, it just has a different purpose than the traditional MD degree. For me personally, when I broke my foot I asked the podiatrist if I could shadow them, and I loved it when I did. This came after shadowing Cardiologists, FP's, surgeon's, and IM docs that for the most part advised me not to go into medicine.

Sure DPM is a medical degree, there's no reason to argue that. It's a highly specialized medical degree like DMD/DDS, DPT, OD, PharmD etc.

So whats the allure? Finding a potential profession as a young adult that has me excited for my future, everything I will learn in the coming years, and all of the pathologies I will treat as a DPM. It clicked for me, and I do not think it is for everyone. To those people that do not see the "allure" I would advise them not to enter the profession and try the MD or DO route.

Excellent advice. I also shadowed a Podiatrist for a few months before medical school and I have to say it was one of my better shadowing experiences. Ultimately I craved a broader scope of practice and the ability to work with the entire body, but the Podiatrist seemed happy and I really liked working with him.

 

[golfandmedicine]

My post was actually in reference to the first two years, so the comparisons I was making were mainly to the material learned in the first two years. After the first two years the routes are very different. For residency we also only do three years so we are out sooner than MD/DO and surgical MD/DOs can be in residency/fellowship for a veryyy long time, which is also an additional perk to becoming a DPM if you dont want that route.

At DMU I dont know what would happen of you transferred programs but I know it is frowned upon. If you ended up just finding out pod wasnt for you I suppose you'd end up having to sort all that out with admissions.

Also at DMU to my knowledge and I cant say for other schools, DO's and DPM's sit for the same tests, although I have heard that they may be graded on different curves. I cant say for sure on the last bit

Each residency is different, I know some residencies say in the info that you are treated as a general resident and mix in with the other specialties. From what I have seen when I have looked at the residencies online, most of them have almost all the rotations with the exception of ob/gyn. There are a mix of ones that do derm and do not do derm but i can imagine it would be useful with how many diabetic ulcer cases we get and osteomyelitis/neuropathy cases we see resulting from bacterial infested ulcers. I am not sure about cardio but when I shadowed a DPM he told me cardio is extremely important to know still. What happens if we are in surgury and our patient goes into cardiac arrest? (its an iffy one since we dont have clearance but there may not be another Dr. immediately present). And even if we do the same rotations, I can't say if we do them in the same manner a DO/MD would, im not to that point yet.