success after being resigned

[ams81]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I have been reading alot of posts here about people not being renewed or being terminated aka resigned.

This happend to me last year from a family practice program in IL. And by taking the right steps I have been able to get a categorical IM position in IL.

I am an american citizen, FMG with okay board scores. I had the misfortune of matching into a malignant FP program in Chicago area. This program was horrible, they would harass us, everyone was a backstabber, and they put most of us on probation in the begining just to keep the pressure on us. I can go on about this program. So they forced me to resign, and of course I was crushed and destroyed. I went threw the grievance process which is supposed to be by an unbias committee...but in reality it was the same people that decided to ruin me. I tried to arrange a swap, but they didnt want to help me, and went behind my back and signed on the resident that i was trying to swap with. I pleaded with them for mercy...my PD told me it's unfair for me to stay here because I wont learn anything, that I have burned my bridges with the faculty. My advisor told me bluntly....no one likes you here, so stop fighting it, just move on.

It took me forever to finally find the right lawyer. I wish I found them sooner, because I could have actually saved my position. But by entering into an agreement with them and going into the appeal process (grievance), if I went to court, they would hold up the decision because I agreed to go into the proceedings.

So I finally found the right lawyer, they basically negotiated my terms of resigning. Had them remove all subjective comments from my LOR, and made sure that only objective information was there. They also put a muzzle on the program, in the sense that they were not allowed to speak about me with out my permission, and I have to approve anything they say about me. This can also be a negative, because other programs will see a red flag when my prev PD isn't talking much about me. But I figured its better they dont give thier skewed subjective views about me.

So then i took off to a reputable Univeristy and spent time as an Observer, and did some research for the summer. Made tons of contacts, got stellar LORs from the PD and faculty at the program i was working with.

I emailed everysingle PD out there telling them I was interested in a position, I was hoping to get into a offcycle position, or at least get my name out, so that I can match again to a PGY1 position. Because I didnt get full credit I couldnt apply to PGY2 spots.

To most people I admit I gave a very vague and general reason for resigning...personal family reasons. And I am sure they knew something or the other is going on.

Some PDs did respond, and I eventually built up rapport with some of them. One of them finally called me in to just talk. I decided I should be honest, because the truth will set me free. I told the PD the truth, and nothing but the truth. I showed him my evals, the good ones and the bad ones, and even all the things I was written up for. The PD then asked me if he was to speak to my prev PD, what would the prev PD say. I again told the PD the truth. The PD then contacted my prev PD, and that was a process bc the lawyers went back and forth, and I told them, let my prev PD speak freely bc I have nothing to hide at this point. I was then called back by the PD that met me, and told me that everything I said was true and that my prev PD confirmed it all.

The PD then said to me that he/she respected my honesty and wanted to help me, and offered me an offcyle prelim IM position. I graciously acceapted.

Now I am near the end of my prelim year, and my current program can clearly see that my prev program was out right malignant. They offered me a PGY2 categorical spot.

I would never wish upon anyone, what I had to go threw, I literally went into depression. I am so thankful to god that I was able to make it back. And I am so happy now, I am somewhere where that I enjoy being, and the program and hospital love having me train here. Everything worked out for the best.

Take home points.

1. Get a lawyer...... www.kr-law.com
2. Dont let your program scare you into things, you always have options, show them you mean business.
3. Be determined, dont let anything stop you, sieze any and every opportunity.
4. Most importantly be honest, and dont blame others for your mistakes, even if isnt your fault, there is still things you can acceapt fault for. Show them that you are driven and have insight.

I wont give out the name of the prev program...but if you know about this program avoid them. They did the same thing to another FMG a few years back...well that guy is now going into a cardio fellowship. And this program has gone out of its way to ruin people lives.

Best of luck to you all, there is hope.

PS they told me I would never make it. And it was an IM attending there that went out of his way to make my life hell, and guess what ...I am an IM resident at reputable program.

for legal reasons I have not given out the name of the programs, and will not give specifics, So please dont ask.

 

[peppy]

I'm very glad to hear that things worked out for you. I hope you will stay around this website to give advice to others who are trying to figure out what to do after resigning or getting fired, since this situation seems to come up fairly regularly on this site and many of us don't really know what to tell people who have faced this since so much of the power seems to be on the program's side of things.

 

[mlw03]

excellent post, thank you for sharing it.

 

[AnesNavy]

I have been reading alot of posts here about people not being renewed or being terminated aka resigned.

This happend to me last year from a family practice program in IL. And by taking the right steps I have been able to get a categorical IM position in IL.

I am an american citizen, FMG with okay board scores. I had the misfortune of matching into a malignant FP program in Chicago area. This program was horrible, they would harass us, everyone was a backstabber, and they put most of us on probation in the begining just to keep the pressure on us. I can go on about this program. So they forced me to resign, and of course I was crushed and destroyed. I went threw the grievance process which is supposed to be by an unbias committee...but in reality it was the same people that decided to ruin me. I tried to arrange a swap, but they didnt want to help me, and went behind my back and signed on the resident that i was trying to swap with. I pleaded with them for mercy...my PD told me it's unfair for me to stay here because I wont learn anything, that I have burned my bridges with the faculty. My advisor told me bluntly....no one likes you here, so stop fighting it, just move on.

It took me forever to finally find the right lawyer. I wish I found them sooner, because I could have actually saved my position. But by entering into an agreement with them and going into the appeal process (grievance), if I went to court, they would hold up the decision because I agreed to go into the proceedings.

So I finally found the right lawyer, they basically negotiated my terms of resigning. Had them remove all subjective comments from my LOR, and made sure that only objective information was there. They also put a muzzle on the program, in the sense that they were not allowed to speak about me with out my permission, and I have to approve anything they say about me. This can also be a negative, because other programs will see a red flag when my prev PD isn't talking much about me. But I figured its better they dont give thier skewed subjective views about me.

So then i took off to a reputable Univeristy and spent time as an Observer, and did some research for the summer. Made tons of contacts, got stellar LORs from the PD and faculty at the program i was working with.

I emailed everysingle PD out there telling them I was interested in a position, I was hoping to get into a offcycle position, or at least get my name out, so that I can match again to a PGY1 position. Because I didnt get full credit I couldnt apply to PGY2 spots.

To most people I admit I gave a very vague and general reason for resigning...personal family reasons. And I am sure they knew something or the other is going on.

Some PDs did respond, and I eventually built up rapport with some of them. One of them finally called me in to just talk. I decided I should be honest, because the truth will set me free. I told the PD the truth, and nothing but the truth. I showed him my evals, the good ones and the bad ones, and even all the things I was written up for. The PD then asked me if he was to speak to my prev PD, what would the prev PD say. I again told the PD the truth. The PD then contacted my prev PD, and that was a process bc the lawyers went back and forth, and I told them, let my prev PD speak freely bc I have nothing to hide at this point. I was then called back by the PD that met me, and told me that everything I said was true and that my prev PD confirmed it all.

The PD then said to me that he/she respected my honesty and wanted to help me, and offered me an offcyle prelim IM position. I graciously acceapted.

Now I am near the end of my prelim year, and my current program can clearly see that my prev program was out right malignant. They offered me a PGY2 categorical spot.

I would never wish upon anyone, what I had to go threw, I literally went into depression. I am so thankful to god that I was able to make it back. And I am so happy now, I am somewhere where that I enjoy being, and the program and hospital love having me train here. Everything worked out for the best.

Take home points.

1. Get a lawyer...... www.kr-law.com
2. Dont let your program scare you into things, you always have options, show them you mean business.
3. Be determined, dont let anything stop you, sieze any and every opportunity.
4. Most importantly be honest, and dont blame others for your mistakes, even if isnt your fault, there is still things you can acceapt fault for. Show them that you are driven and have insight.

I wont give out the name of the prev program...but if you know about this program avoid them. They did the same thing to another FMG a few years back...well that guy is now going into a cardio fellowship. And this program has gone out of its way to ruin people lives.

Best of luck to you all, there is hope.

PS they told me I would never make it. And it was an IM attending there that went out of his way to make my life hell, and guess what ...I am an IM resident at reputable program.

for legal reasons I have not given out the name of the programs, and will not give specifics, So please dont ask.

Thank you for sharing. I think this goes to show that there is always hope. Believe in God and things will work out. Good luck with your IM categorical spot! 👍

 

[Top Gun]

Great to hear that things worked out for you. I'm glad you're thriving in a different program. All too often, being fired or resigning from a residency is a death sentence to a career in medicine.

 

[Sarcoidosis]

Good pieces of advice! Thanks for sharing.

 

[dragonfly99]

Thank you for sharing. I am sure your experiences may help someone else.
I also know someone who resigned at end of 1 year of residency and later went on to restart residency in another specialty somewhere else and was successful. He also had a lawyer (fortunately for him, his family had money). I think a lawyer cannot get your spot back for you, most times, but may be able to negotiate a situation where the program has to provide copies of your evaluations, etc. and may keep them from badmouthing you as much (at least officially). Also you may be able to negotiate getting credit for certain months/rotations that you completed.

 

[ams81]

Thank you for sharing. I am sure your experiences may help someone else.
I also know someone who resigned at end of 1 year of residency and later went on to restart residency in another specialty somewhere else and was successful. He also had a lawyer (fortunately for him, his family had money). I think a lawyer cannot get your spot back for you, most times, but may be able to negotiate a situation where the program has to provide copies of your evaluations, etc. and may keep them from badmouthing you as much (at least officially). Also you may be able to negotiate getting credit for certain months/rotations that you completed.

I think it depends on the situation. Contract non renewal is harder to fight. In my case I could have gotten my spot back, IF I had gotten the right lawyer involved early, and IF I had not agreed to go into the grievance process (basically a kangaroo court). But the bigger question is; would you want to go back after all that has happend? They would make life a living hell. But yes a lawyer can do tons of damage control, officially speaking.

I am sharing my story because my career was pretty much over....I had a less than 1% chance of making it back in. Especially bc I am an FMG. I just wanted to give hope to all the other people who are going threw this now.

Another piece of advice - dont ever let the program bully you. You will always have rights no matter what they say. Fight everything.

Ex. a co-intern was told to sign his academic probation letter, the reason was bc of his atitude. This intern had received tons of praises from all around including from patients in the form of a letter to the hospital. The intern fought back and said the he/she refused to sign it. The program backed off.

Another example: Programs will start writing you up for every little thing, just to build up a case against you. You are expected to sign the write up, and also give your response. I was written up for not correcting a pt's K level, when in reality I did. The Attending refused to withdraw the write up. My advisor told me not to worry. That was the day I should have started to worry and get a lawyer involved.

I am sure there were things that I did to deserve being written up, and I know if did things differently, I wouldnt have been in the situation. Everything happend for reason, and now I am somewhere better.

anyways if I continue to type more things...I'll start to become more spiteful.

feel free to PM if you need help, support, or just someone to talk to.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I think it depends on the situation. Contract non renewal is harder to fight. In my case I could have gotten my spot back, IF I had gotten the right lawyer involved early, and IF I had not agreed to go into the grievance process (basically a kangaroo court). But the bigger question is; would you want to go back after all that has happend? They would make life a living hell. But yes a lawyer can do tons of damage control, officially speaking.

I am sharing my story because my career was pretty much over....I had a less than 1% chance of making it back in. Especially bc I am an FMG. I just wanted to give hope to all the other people who are going threw this now.

Another piece of advice - dont ever let the program bully you. You will always have rights no matter what they say. Fight everything.

Ex. a co-intern was told to sign his academic probation letter, the reason was bc of his atitude. This intern had received tons of praises from all around including from patients in the form of a letter to the hospital. The intern fought back and said the he/she refused to sign it. The program backed off.

Another example: Programs will start writing you up for every little thing, just to build up a case against you. You are expected to sign the write up, and also give your response. I was written up for not correcting a pt's K level, when in reality I did. The Attending refused to withdraw the write up. My advisor told me not to worry. That was the day I should have started to worry and get a lawyer involved.

I am sure there were things that I did to deserve being written up, and I know if did things differently, I wouldnt have been in the situation. Everything happend for reason, and now I am somewhere better.

anyways if I continue to type more things...I'll start to become more spiteful.

feel free to PM if you need help, support, or just someone to talk to.

Thanks for all the great tips/advice that you have provided so far in this thread. With regard to the bolded advice, while getting a lawyer at that point probably wouldn't have hurt you in 20/20 hindsight, a cheaper alternative to someone that finds themselves in that sort of situation is to record any meetings talking about that***. That way, when they acknowledged (I presume orally, since you said that they wouldn't do it in writing) that the mistake wasn't your fault, you would have it recorded (so that you could provide it to a lawyer later if you needed to.) It also goes without saying that if they say something nebulous like "Don't worry about it," and you're recording the conversation, make them clarify what they're saying. "Why should I not worry about it if we both know that it wasn't my mistake and the attending won't redact the write-up?", etc.

IMHO, you should record or be prepared to record ANY meeting/discussion about your performance. I recorded pretty much every performance review in my former career, and recorded all of my medical school clinical feedback meetings. It's way easier these days (with the iphone voice memo function/app vs having to sneak a mini/microcassette recorder in in a small bag, etc.) You never know when you will need something like that.

*** This, of course, assumes that it is legal to do so. I have only ever lived in "one-party" states, so obviously you need to take that into consideration. According to Wikipedia, only 12 states require consent of all parties:

Twelve states currently require that all parties consent to the recording. These states are:
California[11]
Connecticut
Florida[12]
Illinois (debated, see next section)
Maryland[13]
Massachusetts
Michigan
Montana [14] (requires notification only)
Nevada
New Hampshire
Pennsylvania[15]
Washington[16]

A more detailed site with summaries of the statutes for each state can be found at http://www.rcfp.org/can-we-tape/

 

[3dtp]

Michigan is, at present, a one party consent state, with due respect to wikipedia. The Michigan statute is an eavesdropping statute, which forbids anyone who does not have a right to listen to a conversation to record it. In other words, if you record and control the recorder yourself, you may record it. You may not hire someone else to record it for you, if that person does not have a right to listen to it.

See Sullivan v. Gray, 117 Mich.App 476, 1982. This case held that if you are a participant in a conversation, you are allowed to record it without anybody's consent but your own. Recording may take place by taking notes, or simply recalling it was well, but you can record it, including audio. This decision could be overturned by the Michigan Supreme Court at some point in the future, but Michigan requires Appellate Courts to give full credence to prior opinions of the Appellate Court under the legal doctrine of Stare Decisis. (That which is decided remains decided). Until and unless the Michigan Supreme Court changes this, you can record.

Be wary of wikipedia without independent confirmation.

 

[ObgynSpouse]

My wife is in a similar situation right now, she is being asked to resign because if she does resign nothing will onto the record but if she does appeal the whole allegation will be on her file which could possibly ruin her career.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12897056#post12897056


if that is true why would anyone want to take the risk of an appeal?

 

[johnsmithdr11th]

My wife is in a similar situation right now, she is being asked to resign because if she does resign nothing will onto the record but if she does appeal the whole allegation will be on her file which could possibly ruin her career.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12897056#post12897056


if that is true why would anyone want to take the risk of an appeal?

You take the risk of appeal because, if it makes it to court, not appealing can be used against the resident. Also, although appeals generally don't work, they lengthen the time you have for your lawyers to negotiate and, eventually, the process gets closer to ACGME resident services getting involved. They will not rule for an individual resident, but they may investigate whether the program in question has fulfilled all of its accreditation regulations. And just like a resident doesn't look good while under the microscope, a program doesn't necessarily want such scrutiny either.

 

[peerie]

Obgyn, I am sorry to hear about your wife. It is indeed troubling and I can appreciate the stress and anxiety that you both must feel. In particular, the stress that she must be feeling.

Please do a search of the forums. many others have posted similar situations and you will be very surprised to learn that what has happened to her has happened to many others before her. I am sure that this behavior will continue for many years to come unless it is brought out into the open and discussed in a healthy way.

You will also be surprised to read that almost word for word, the very same comments are said to different residents. Of course the program is asking her to simply give up, resign and go quietly. That would make is easier for them of course. You must decide for yourselves what is right for you. There is no easy answer here, it is a complicated and upsetting situation to be in. The stress alone makes it very hard to think clearly, just at a time when you need the clearest thinking to plan for your future.

I don't know why medicine does this, it seems like a tremendous shame and for a profession that is designed to help others it does not seem able to help its own people. It's very sad.

 

[dralright]

I have been reading alot of posts here about people not being renewed or being terminated aka resigned.

This happend to me last year from a family practice program in IL. And by taking the right steps I have been able to get a categorical IM position in IL.

I am an american citizen, FMG with okay board scores. I had the misfortune of matching into a malignant FP program in Chicago area. This program was horrible, they would harass us, everyone was a backstabber, and they put most of us on probation in the begining just to keep the pressure on us. I can go on about this program. So they forced me to resign, and of course I was crushed and destroyed. I went threw the grievance process which is supposed to be by an unbias committee...but in reality it was the same people that decided to ruin me. I tried to arrange a swap, but they didnt want to help me, and went behind my back and signed on the resident that i was trying to swap with. I pleaded with them for mercy...my PD told me it's unfair for me to stay here because I wont learn anything, that I have burned my bridges with the faculty. My advisor told me bluntly....no one likes you here, so stop fighting it, just move on.

It took me forever to finally find the right lawyer. I wish I found them sooner, because I could have actually saved my position. But by entering into an agreement with them and going into the appeal process (grievance), if I went to court, they would hold up the decision because I agreed to go into the proceedings.

So I finally found the right lawyer, they basically negotiated my terms of resigning. Had them remove all subjective comments from my LOR, and made sure that only objective information was there. They also put a muzzle on the program, in the sense that they were not allowed to speak about me with out my permission, and I have to approve anything they say about me. This can also be a negative, because other programs will see a red flag when my prev PD isn't talking much about me. But I figured its better they dont give thier skewed subjective views about me.

So then i took off to a reputable Univeristy and spent time as an Observer, and did some research for the summer. Made tons of contacts, got stellar LORs from the PD and faculty at the program i was working with.

I emailed everysingle PD out there telling them I was interested in a position, I was hoping to get into a offcycle position, or at least get my name out, so that I can match again to a PGY1 position. Because I didnt get full credit I couldnt apply to PGY2 spots.

To most people I admit I gave a very vague and general reason for resigning...personal family reasons. And I am sure they knew something or the other is going on.

Some PDs did respond, and I eventually built up rapport with some of them. One of them finally called me in to just talk. I decided I should be honest, because the truth will set me free. I told the PD the truth, and nothing but the truth. I showed him my evals, the good ones and the bad ones, and even all the things I was written up for. The PD then asked me if he was to speak to my prev PD, what would the prev PD say. I again told the PD the truth. The PD then contacted my prev PD, and that was a process bc the lawyers went back and forth, and I told them, let my prev PD speak freely bc I have nothing to hide at this point. I was then called back by the PD that met me, and told me that everything I said was true and that my prev PD confirmed it all.

The PD then said to me that he/she respected my honesty and wanted to help me, and offered me an offcyle prelim IM position. I graciously acceapted.

Now I am near the end of my prelim year, and my current program can clearly see that my prev program was out right malignant. They offered me a PGY2 categorical spot.

I would never wish upon anyone, what I had to go threw, I literally went into depression. I am so thankful to god that I was able to make it back. And I am so happy now, I am somewhere where that I enjoy being, and the program and hospital love having me train here. Everything worked out for the best.

Take home points.

1. Get a lawyer...... www.kr-law.com
2. Dont let your program scare you into things, you always have options, show them you mean business.
3. Be determined, dont let anything stop you, sieze any and every opportunity.
4. Most importantly be honest, and dont blame others for your mistakes, even if isnt your fault, there is still things you can acceapt fault for. Show them that you are driven and have insight.

I wont give out the name of the prev program...but if you know about this program avoid them. They did the same thing to another FMG a few years back...well that guy is now going into a cardio fellowship. And this program has gone out of its way to ruin people lives.

Best of luck to you all, there is hope.

PS they told me I would never make it. And it was an IM attending there that went out of his way to make my life hell, and guess what ...I am an IM resident at reputable program.

for legal reasons I have not given out the name of the programs, and will not give specifics, So please dont ask.

Hi,

Could you giv me some information about how you went through it.
I have been facing difficulties in my program. Previously I used to think I am nt good for it, as that is how they made me feel. I am the only FMG in my program. But thinking retrospectively, I have tried my best and given my 100% to the program, with no changes whatsoever in my evaluations which is BS....The PD also mentions that she has seen good improvement but is not at the level of other interns and my evaluations show that I have had no improvement at all. I was also not given the required on call and night duties which made me feel more out of track. I am not sure how a resident is to learn if he/ she does not get the exposure. I have stil maintained my cool and my confidence. I am not sure what to do now. i have been miserable in this program. I still like to see my patients and go to the hospital, but I can't stay with persistent negative remarks which is not even true.
I am not sure if I should even take it down the legal track and how helpful it will be.
I would appreciate all your help.
Thanks!

 

[metabolite]

I'm not sure how helpful it is to go through the appeals process, etc. It seems that after more residents began to hire attorneys, programs learned to cover their a** pretty well.

I'm pretty sure that I am looking toward unsuccessful completion of this year, I don't know what miracle it will take to have people change their minds about me. So my question is...
1. Termination vs. resignation
and
2. If I resign at this point, i.e. in the middle of the yr, do I need to check "yes" on the box that states " were you ever forced to resign"?

I have a nagging feeling that this is what my PD is trying to tell me... to resign before things get a lot worse

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not sure how helpful it is to go through the appeals process, etc. It seems that after more residents began to hire attorneys, programs learned to cover their a** pretty well.

I'm pretty sure that I am looking toward unsuccessful completion of this year, I don't know what miracle it will take to have people change their minds about me. So my question is...
1. Termination vs. resignation
and
2. If I resign at this point, i.e. in the middle of the yr, do I need to check "yes" on the box that states " were you ever forced to resign"?

I have a nagging feeling that this is what my PD is trying to tell me... to resign before things get a lot worse

It's not that complicated. If it's something you have grounds to fight, fight it. Get a lawyer and don't resign. If you have no leg to stand on -- you screwed up multiple times and you know it, and don't want to throw bad money after good, then resign and at least have fewer documented blemishes. FWIW, since residency contracts are year to year, it seems to me that there's probably something serious going on if the PD can't stomach waiting from now to July to get rid of you. So only you know all the facts and can make the necessary calls here.

And yes, if you resign, you'll have to check any boxes that ask if you've resigned.

 

[metabolite]

It's not that complicated. If it's something you have grounds to fight, fight it. Get a lawyer and don't resign. If you have no leg to stand on -- you screwed up multiple times and you know it, and don't want to throw bad money after good, then resign and at least have fewer documented blemishes. FWIW, since residency contracts are year to year, it seems to me that there's probably something serious going on if the PD can't stomach waiting from now to July to get rid of you. So only you know all the facts and can make the necessary calls here.

And yes, if you resign, you'll have to check any boxes that ask if you've resigned.

I don't have a leg to stand on. I am a transfer resident who came on board as a senior, and attendings felt that my level was not where they thought I would be. I had been pulled out of my original scheduled rotation through junior rotation as an extra person, the whole time being told that I will be kept around, but they found lots of problems (real or not) and it had been documented rather meticulously that I don't think it's really worth a fight. So for the rest of the year all my rotations are as an extra person on services that were already scheduled without me in the first place, and they don't need me.

 

[metabolite]

It's not that complicated. If it's something you have grounds to fight, fight it. Get a lawyer and don't resign. If you have no leg to stand on -- you screwed up multiple times and you know it, and don't want to throw bad money after good, then resign and at least have fewer documented blemishes. FWIW, since residency contracts are year to year, it seems to me that there's probably something serious going on if the PD can't stomach waiting from now to July to get rid of you. So only you know all the facts and can make the necessary calls here.

And yes, if you resign, you'll have to check any boxes that ask if you've resigned.

Beside... I'm not going to fight to stay in the residency, I want to leave and start fresh somewhere else.

 

[p30doc]

Beside... I'm not going to fight to stay in the residency, I want to leave and start fresh somewhere else.

Why did you transfer there in the first place? Were you also having programs at your original program?

 

[metabolite]

Nope. Thought I switched to a better program.

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm not sure how helpful it is to go through the appeals process, etc. It seems that after more residents began to hire attorneys, programs learned to cover their a** pretty well.

I'm pretty sure that I am looking toward unsuccessful completion of this year, I don't know what miracle it will take to have people change their minds about me. So my question is...
1. Termination vs. resignation
and
2. If I resign at this point, i.e. in the middle of the yr, do I need to check "yes" on the box that states " were you ever forced to resign"?

I have a nagging feeling that this is what my PD is trying to tell me... to resign before things get a lot worse

If you're sinking and get the I'm not sure there's going to be a spot for you next year, "wink wink". You should probably read between the lines and resign, or resign now effective at the end of the year. They might be happier to know you're leaving and treat you better. The chief also might suggest leaving now...
Either way, as long as they didn't say, "resign now our be fired", I wouldn't be checking that box. Leaving on your own, while doing poorly, is not being forced to resign.

 

[metabolite]

Did it! Resigned finally. I do feel like I am sunk deep in a s*&t hole so deep and so stinky all by myself right now. Planning on going overseas mission for a couple years and get my head straight... thinking about a total career change at this point, i.e. biostats, MD/JD...

I believe this is a 3rd stage of grief...

 

[metabolite]

BTW, if anyone else reading this thread is in similar situation... i.e. contract non-renewal, being forced to resign, thinking of resigning, etc... there is a life in medicine afterwards. Plenty of people switch residency and eventually end up doing well... I know of an radiology resident who switched to anesthesia after 3.5y, surgery resident who left after 4th y and now is doing very well as an anesthesia, and even someone who went from ophthalmology --> anesthesiology --> pathology...

Just have to keep your head up and believe in yourself, even when no one else does...

 

[Silent Cool]

BTW, if anyone else reading this thread is in similar situation... i.e. contract non-renewal, being forced to resign, thinking of resigning, etc... there is a life in medicine afterwards. Plenty of people switch residency and eventually end up doing well... I know of an radiology resident who switched to anesthesia after 3.5y, surgery resident who left after 4th y and now is doing very well as an anesthesia, and even someone who went from ophthalmology --> anesthesiology --> pathology...

Just have to keep your head up and believe in yourself, even when no one else does...

metab,

thanks for sharing your story and anecdotes. good luck with whatever you decide.
👍

 

[Law2Doc]

Did it! Resigned finally. I do feel like I am sunk deep in a s*&t hole so deep and so stinky all by myself right now. Planning on going overseas mission for a couple years and get my head straight... thinking about a total career change at this point, i.e. biostats, MD/JD...

I believe this is a 3rd stage of grief...

The utility of an MD/JD isn't worth another three years of professional education and debt.

 

[notdeadyet]

The utility of an MD/JD isn't worth another three years of professional education and debt.

Agree. At the end of the day, an MD/JD is either a lawyer who doesn't practice medicine or a doctor who doesn't practice law...

 

[Gastrapathy]

Agree. At the end of the day, an MD/JD is either a lawyer who doesn't practice medicine or a doctor who doesn't practice law...

He's already a doctor who will have trouble practicing medicine. A law degree isn't necessarily a bad idea. Who knows, maybe he'll use his superpowers for good instead of evil.

 

[Top Gun]

He's already a doctor who will have trouble practicing medicine. A law degree isn't necessarily a bad idea. Who knows, maybe he'll use his superpowers for good instead of evil.

With his medical background, he might do well as a medmal attorney. If his PD or any of his former attendings who disliked him get sued in the future, he could get revenge by representing the patient in those cases.

 

[IlDestriero]

With his medical background, he might do well as a medmal attorney. If his PD or any of his former attendings who disliked him get sued in the future, he could get revenge by representing the patient in those cases.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. (It is very cold in space...)
And of course, payback is a Bitch. 😉

 

[notdeadyet]

He's already a doctor who will have trouble practicing medicine. A law degree isn't necessarily a bad idea. Who knows, maybe he'll use his superpowers for good instead of evil.

Like I said: a lawyer who doesn't practice medicine. If you're picturing that combo more likely to be used for good than evil, you have a more charitable view than I do.

 

[Taurus]

I would have hung on til the very very bitter end. Better to complete year. I wouldn't care about the stares or cold shoulder I got. Screw them.

 

[Law2Doc]

With his medical background, he might do well as a medmal attorney...

You might think so, but this is a false statement. Law firms aren't looking for someone with an MD. Doctors and nurses willing to give their professional opinions or do chart reviews for cheap are plentiful. All you do with two degrees is price yourself out of jobs. No employer firm will think you are going to be happy for long with the lockstep junior associate salary when you are already a licensed physician, but you don't bring enough to the table that they can't get elsewhere cheaper, and don't have the relevant law experience that could justify paying you more. And you represent someone with multiple avenues to jump ship if other opportunities come along -- firms that lived through the dot com boom/ law firm brain drain are extremely wary of attrition, As a result 99.999% of medmal law is done by people with just a law degree and no firm is really looking for more significant credentials.

My personal experience has been that firms tend to frown on people with outside academic interests and intellectual pursuits, in favor of people with minimum qualifications who don't pose as much of a flight risk. Its a myopic approach, but thats what you'll find in the industry. So if the OP gets a law degree, he won't be getting law firms excited. He might position himself for administrative or governmental things, or maybe consulting type work in a better economy. But medmal isn't going to be an easy door to get through from this route.

 

[Law2Doc]

Like I said: a lawyer who doesn't practice medicine. If you're picturing that combo more likely to be used for good than evil, you have a more charitable view than I do.

It's not a good versus evil issue. Lawyers are neither. Basically a loaded weapon, extremely dangerous in the wrong hands. Can be used for defense or offense -- the weapon itself is morally detached. In my prior career, which wasn't medmal or litigation, I certainly worked and negotiated to help clients get what they deserved, and in some cases stuff they didn't really deserve. but most of the time it was about helping them follow the rules and getting the best financial result they were allowed under those rules. We didn't create the rules, we just helped people parse them and make decisions based in what they allowed and didn't allow. Good and evil don't enter into the typical contract negotiation or project financing deal, or even lawsuit. End results might be good or evil, but not having a functioning legal and legislative process tends to be a far worse evil, which is why every advanced society sets one up.

But this is very much a tangent.

 

[metabolite]

All right, so JD wasn't the brightest idea. But I am serious about PhD in analytical field, more so for my own satisfaction rather than job booster...

Writing was all over the wall and I just couldn't hack it. It was quite evident to me that I will be let go before the end of the year. Until this happened to me, I honestly believed that only the horrible residents get fired. As I am going on with my medical training I do learn that a lot of things happen on this path, some unjust, some just, some purely just a bad luck, the last one which I think applies to me. I just hope that when I clear my head and complete all four stages of grief in a couple years, PDs that I interview will be understanding of my circumstance...

 

[Silent Cool]

The utility of an MD/JD isn't worth another three years of professional education and debt.

I disagree. Two words: "Patent Law."

 

[umean2tellme]

Objection! 🙂

 

[ilch]

I have been reading alot of posts here about people not being renewed or being terminated aka resigned.

This happend to me last year from a family practice program in IL. And by taking the right steps I have been able to get a categorical IM position in IL.

I am an american citizen, FMG with okay board scores. I had the misfortune of matching into a malignant FP program in Chicago area. This program was horrible, they would harass us, everyone was a backstabber, and they put most of us on probation in the begining just to keep the pressure on us. I can go on about this program. So they forced me to resign, and of course I was crushed and destroyed. I went threw the grievance process which is supposed to be by an unbias committee...but in reality it was the same people that decided to ruin me. I tried to arrange a swap, but they didnt want to help me, and went behind my back and signed on the resident that i was trying to swap with. I pleaded with them for mercy...my PD told me it's unfair for me to stay here because I wont learn anything, that I have burned my bridges with the faculty. My advisor told me bluntly....no one likes you here, so stop fighting it, just move on.

It took me forever to finally find the right lawyer. I wish I found them sooner, because I could have actually saved my position. But by entering into an agreement with them and going into the appeal process (grievance), if I went to court, they would hold up the decision because I agreed to go into the proceedings.

So I finally found the right lawyer, they basically negotiated my terms of resigning. Had them remove all subjective comments from my LOR, and made sure that only objective information was there. They also put a muzzle on the program, in the sense that they were not allowed to speak about me with out my permission, and I have to approve anything they say about me. This can also be a negative, because other programs will see a red flag when my prev PD isn't talking much about me. But I figured its better they dont give thier skewed subjective views about me.

So then i took off to a reputable Univeristy and spent time as an Observer, and did some research for the summer. Made tons of contacts, got stellar LORs from the PD and faculty at the program i was working with.

I emailed everysingle PD out there telling them I was interested in a position, I was hoping to get into a offcycle position, or at least get my name out, so that I can match again to a PGY1 position. Because I didnt get full credit I couldnt apply to PGY2 spots.

To most people I admit I gave a very vague and general reason for resigning...personal family reasons. And I am sure they knew something or the other is going on.

Some PDs did respond, and I eventually built up rapport with some of them. One of them finally called me in to just talk. I decided I should be honest, because the truth will set me free. I told the PD the truth, and nothing but the truth. I showed him my evals, the good ones and the bad ones, and even all the things I was written up for. The PD then asked me if he was to speak to my prev PD, what would the prev PD say. I again told the PD the truth. The PD then contacted my prev PD, and that was a process bc the lawyers went back and forth, and I told them, let my prev PD speak freely bc I have nothing to hide at this point. I was then called back by the PD that met me, and told me that everything I said was true and that my prev PD confirmed it all.

The PD then said to me that he/she respected my honesty and wanted to help me, and offered me an offcyle prelim IM position. I graciously acceapted.

Now I am near the end of my prelim year, and my current program can clearly see that my prev program was out right malignant. They offered me a PGY2 categorical spot.

I would never wish upon anyone, what I had to go threw, I literally went into depression. I am so thankful to god that I was able to make it back. And I am so happy now, I am somewhere where that I enjoy being, and the program and hospital love having me train here. Everything worked out for the best.

Take home points.

1. Get a lawyer...... www.kr-law.com
2. Dont let your program scare you into things, you always have options, show them you mean business.
3. Be determined, dont let anything stop you, sieze any and every opportunity.
4. Most importantly be honest, and dont blame others for your mistakes, even if isnt your fault, there is still things you can acceapt fault for. Show them that you are driven and have insight.

I wont give out the name of the prev program...but if you know about this program avoid them. They did the same thing to another FMG a few years back...well that guy is now going into a cardio fellowship. And this program has gone out of its way to ruin people lives.

Best of luck to you all, there is hope.

PS they told me I would never make it. And it was an IM attending there that went out of his way to make my life hell, and guess what ...I am an IM resident at reputable program.

Would you mind describing the grievance process to me? Was your PD there testifying against you in front of you? Did you guys each bring witnesses? Were the witnesses subected to cross examination?

Thanks. Hope to hear from you soon.

 

[Winged Scapula]

The OP posted 2 years ago and hasn't posted on SDN for 5 months.

 

[metabolite]

I have been reading alot of posts here about people not being renewed or being terminated aka resigned.

This happend to me last year from a family practice program in IL. And by taking the right steps I have been able to get a categorical IM position in IL.

I am an american citizen, FMG with okay board scores. I had the misfortune of matching into a malignant FP program in Chicago area. This program was horrible, they would harass us, everyone was a backstabber, and they put most of us on probation in the begining just to keep the pressure on us. I can go on about this program. So they forced me to resign, and of course I was crushed and destroyed. I went threw the grievance process which is supposed to be by an unbias committee...but in reality it was the same people that decided to ruin me. I tried to arrange a swap, but they didnt want to help me, and went behind my back and signed on the resident that i was trying to swap with. I pleaded with them for mercy...my PD told me it's unfair for me to stay here because I wont learn anything, that I have burned my bridges with the faculty. My advisor told me bluntly....no one likes you here, so stop fighting it, just move on.

It took me forever to finally find the right lawyer. I wish I found them sooner, because I could have actually saved my position. But by entering into an agreement with them and going into the appeal process (grievance), if I went to court, they would hold up the decision because I agreed to go into the proceedings.

So I finally found the right lawyer, they basically negotiated my terms of resigning. Had them remove all subjective comments from my LOR, and made sure that only objective information was there. They also put a muzzle on the program, in the sense that they were not allowed to speak about me with out my permission, and I have to approve anything they say about me. This can also be a negative, because other programs will see a red flag when my prev PD isn't talking much about me. But I figured its better they dont give thier skewed subjective views about me.

So then i took off to a reputable Univeristy and spent time as an Observer, and did some research for the summer. Made tons of contacts, got stellar LORs from the PD and faculty at the program i was working with.

I emailed everysingle PD out there telling them I was interested in a position, I was hoping to get into a offcycle position, or at least get my name out, so that I can match again to a PGY1 position. Because I didnt get full credit I couldnt apply to PGY2 spots.

To most people I admit I gave a very vague and general reason for resigning...personal family reasons. And I am sure they knew something or the other is going on.

Some PDs did respond, and I eventually built up rapport with some of them. One of them finally called me in to just talk. I decided I should be honest, because the truth will set me free. I told the PD the truth, and nothing but the truth. I showed him my evals, the good ones and the bad ones, and even all the things I was written up for. The PD then asked me if he was to speak to my prev PD, what would the prev PD say. I again told the PD the truth. The PD then contacted my prev PD, and that was a process bc the lawyers went back and forth, and I told them, let my prev PD speak freely bc I have nothing to hide at this point. I was then called back by the PD that met me, and told me that everything I said was true and that my prev PD confirmed it all.

The PD then said to me that he/she respected my honesty and wanted to help me, and offered me an offcyle prelim IM position. I graciously acceapted.

Now I am near the end of my prelim year, and my current program can clearly see that my prev program was out right malignant. They offered me a PGY2 categorical spot.

I would never wish upon anyone, what I had to go threw, I literally went into depression. I am so thankful to god that I was able to make it back. And I am so happy now, I am somewhere where that I enjoy being, and the program and hospital love having me train here. Everything worked out for the best.

Take home points.

1. Get a lawyer...... www.kr-law.com
2. Dont let your program scare you into things, you always have options, show them you mean business.
3. Be determined, dont let anything stop you, sieze any and every opportunity.
4. Most importantly be honest, and dont blame others for your mistakes, even if isnt your fault, there is still things you can acceapt fault for. Show them that you are driven and have insight.

I wont give out the name of the prev program...but if you know about this program avoid them. They did the same thing to another FMG a few years back...well that guy is now going into a cardio fellowship. And this program has gone out of its way to ruin people lives.

Best of luck to you all, there is hope.

PS they told me I would never make it. And it was an IM attending there that went out of his way to make my life hell, and guess what ...I am an IM resident at reputable program.

for legal reasons I have not given out the name of the programs, and will not give specifics, So please dont ask.

Totally awesome thread... thank you for sharing.

 

[ams81]

I am glad people are able to find benefit from my post. I do get msgs and try my best respond, I randomly get notifications from SDN, and sometimes not.

In retrospect, For a while I was filled with so much animosity towards my old program and PD. I found out that since leaving, another intern actually left the program own his own bc of his experiences. And every year since my departure the the program has been going unfilled (4 to 6 spots a year), and scrambling desperately.

But honestly I don't have any animosity, I actually feel thankful to them. Because I the truth is I needed to go threw that to be where I am today, to be driven to achieve and to be able to truly appreciate what I have today. If I had ended up staying there, I really wonder how I would have turned out. Many of my friends that graduated from there feel they learned nothing, and were miserable the whole time, and actually keep telling me I got the better end of the deal.

My old PD told me that one day I would thank him/her, I couldn't understand that statement for the longest time. I do plan to go back to my old program..and to sit with the my old PD, and to tell him/her "Thank you"

Side note: I still do want to go to that IM attending that ruined me from day 1 and told me that I would never make it..and give him/her a piece a of mind. I am not over that one yet... But I already know how I am going to stick it to him, my old PD, my old spineless faculty advisor and old faculty. "The best revenge is massive success" - Sinatra


Since then, I have received many emails with similar stories, and some have been successful. I just want to give hope and motivation to each and every person that is unfortunate to go threw this.


I want people to know that nothing can defeat Hardwork, Dedication, Sincerity, Humility and Honesty, and sooner or later you will once again shine.




As an update on my story
I was offerred Chief, I turned it down, I was offered faculty, I turned it down. Because I plan to pursue fellowship training

+++ post edited as to not reveal which program(s), or parties involved due to legal reasons, thanks for understanding. If you want details PM me