Suggestions for surgical practice for students

[Kranas]

Hey, we (the students) are organizing an event called "Surgical courses" in our university, during which we introduce other students to surgery and help them to improve their surgical practical skills. So far our courses consisted of:
- surgical knot tying and sutures (simple suture, running suture, mattress suture and so on). Done with real expired sutures on sponges or pig skin.
- basic plastic surgery techniques - z-plasty, skin flap, rhomboid and others. All done on chicken skin.
- Vascular surgery techniques - anastomosis "side to end" and "end to end" on synthetic vessel substitutes.
- Abdominal surgery techniques - side to side and end to end anastomosis using pig intestines obtained from the slaughter house.
As you can see we are mostly using the materials that we are able to acquire ourselves and do not have the access to expensive surgical simulators etc. So what I am asking is:
Perhaps you could suggest other ways to simulate surgical procedures and improve our practical surgical skills. What are other surgical procedures that are possible to at least partly simulate, and from other surgical fields as well (neurosurgery, traumatology etc). Are there ways to cheaply create some sort of laparoscopic simulators? Are there some sort of exercises for surgeons/residents/students to develop and improve their hand dexterity/motor skills?
Your help would be appreciated

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[deleted480308]

at undergrad? their time will be better spent studying for their classes and mcat

I know it's a cranky old man answer, but no one cares how nimble an undergrad's fingers are

(the less cranky answer ..... http://www.ethicon.com/healthcare-professionals/education/student-knot-tying-kit .... they offer free kits for knot tying that are pretty cool, they go on backorder all the time so you have to keep checking)

 

[Psai]

bro you should invest in a set of retractors and practice standing there for hours in awkward positions such as behind resident, right hand reaching under their right armpit with your back more crooked than a person with scoliosis

 

[Kaustikos]

bro you should invest in a set of retractors and practice standing there for hours in awkward positions such as behind resident, right hand reaching under their right armpit with your back more crooked than a person with scoliosis

lol
Learn how to cut properly.
Learn how to suck up to scrub techs
And practice not crying when being yelled at. Learn sarcasm. Get a sense of humor.
Surgical techniques in college is pointless because you'll learn it all but run the risk of hardly using it. Plus, learning on non-humans is not comparable to humans. You have patients with paper-thin skin making suturing a nightmare.

 

[NickNaylor]

bro you should invest in a set of retractors and practice standing there for hours in awkward positions such as behind resident, right hand reaching under their right armpit with your back more crooked than a person with scoliosis

I'm going to invent the NickNaylor Retraction Simulation Device (NRSD)(tm). It will be a very oddly shaped polygon with a central spring-loaded cavity requiring 30 lb. of force to fully open, and the trainee will stand at various points along the device and open the cavity. Each position will require different orientations in order to successfully work around the device.

I can see the Benjamins now...

 

[doc05]

Hey, we (the students) are organizing an event called "Surgical courses" in our university, during which we introduce other students to surgery and help them to improve their surgical practical skills. So far our courses consisted of:
- surgical knot tying and sutures (simple suture, running suture, mattress suture and so on). Done with real expired sutures on sponges or pig skin.
- basic plastic surgery techniques - z-plasty, skin flap, rhomboid and others. All done on chicken skin.
- Vascular surgery techniques - anastomosis "side to end" and "end to end" on synthetic vessel substitutes.
- Abdominal surgery techniques - side to side and end to end anastomosis using pig intestines obtained from the slaughter house.
As you can see we are mostly using the materials that we are able to acquire ourselves and do not have the access to expensive surgical simulators etc. So what I am asking is:
Perhaps you could suggest other ways to simulate surgical procedures and improve our practical surgical skills. What are other surgical procedures that are possible to at least partly simulate, and from other surgical fields as well (neurosurgery, traumatology etc). Are there ways to cheaply create some sort of laparoscopic simulators? Are there some sort of exercises for surgeons/residents/students to develop and improve their hand dexterity/motor skills?
Your help would be appreciated

doing anything you've suggested in college, or med school for that matter, is a pointless waste of your time.

it's more important that you practice staying awake for 30-40 hours without rest.

 

[Kaustikos]

I'm going to invent the NickNaylor Retraction Simulation Device (NRSD)(tm). It will be a very oddly shaped polygon with a central spring-loaded cavity requiring 30 lb. of force to fully open, and the trainee will stand at various points along the device and open the cavity. Each position will require different orientations in order to successfully work around the device.

I can see the Benjamins now...

Uhhhhh
Hate to burst your bubble, but surgeons now have retractors that can be manually adjusted but hold their place. So, your idea sounds awesome, but come on...
YOU'RE TAKING OUR JOBS AS MEDICAL STUDENTS!

 

[Psai]

Uhhhhh
Hate to burst your bubble, but surgeons now have retractors that can be manually adjusted but hold their place. So, your idea sounds awesome, but come on...
YOU'RE TAKING OUR JOBS AS MEDICAL STUDENTS!

those things are awesome

 

[Kaustikos]

those things are awesome

They are. I love them and see why they use them. But it's a slap in the face because it literally means medical students do less and less. Soon they'll be asking us to hold GoPro cameras while they do operations. Then figure out they can just attach it to their heads.
Then they'll ask us to wipe the sweat off their brows. Until Hoover invents an auto brow-wiping device.
Then they'll just ask us to babysit their kids.

 

[Wordead]

The mocking does make me happy, but in the interest of helping the OP - you can get laparoscopic simulator boxes that are pretty cheap. It's just a box with a camera and 2 trocars you can use to manipulate **** inside.

You have some sweet stuff on that list though - the basic local flaps one and the vascular anastamoses would be things I would have liked to see. Who's coming to help lead those, though? And wouldnt you need a loupe or a microscope....sounds way too expensive

 

[WinslowPringle]

So, surgical knot tying is fun....probably not super useful at your stage, but fun. I take that back - I typically tie the drawstring on my scrubs and PJs as a two handed (loose) knot, so maybe some real-life use.

Vascular and bowel anastomoses are pretty ambitious, though. You guys will be tying and suturing for the first time and decide to practice with double ended 6-0 prolene? And are you hand suturing that bowel together or using staplers? Where are you getting the synthetic vessel substitutes? How are you going to deal with the stench of intestine from the slaughterhouse?

You want better dexterity in general? Take up piano, violin, tatting, crochet, miniature oil painting, eating with chopsticks. Actually, video games are purported to help with lap surgery skills.

Learning some of the basic splints and wound coverings could potentially actually be useful (the Boy Scout stuff you learn for wilderness trips...). Take a BLS course together. Practice venipuncture on oranges. Study for the MCAT. Or just watch you-tube videos of stuff if you want the 'cool, gross' factor.

 

[mpdoc2]

Hey, we (the students) are organizing an event called "Surgical courses" in our university, during which we introduce other students to surgery and help them to improve their surgical practical skills. So far our courses consisted of:
- surgical knot tying and sutures (simple suture, running suture, mattress suture and so on). Done with real expired sutures on sponges or pig skin.
- basic plastic surgery techniques - z-plasty, skin flap, rhomboid and others. All done on chicken skin.
- Vascular surgery techniques - anastomosis "side to end" and "end to end" on synthetic vessel substitutes.
- Abdominal surgery techniques - side to side and end to end anastomosis using pig intestines obtained from the slaughter house.
As you can see we are mostly using the materials that we are able to acquire ourselves and do not have the access to expensive surgical simulators etc. So what I am asking is:
Perhaps you could suggest other ways to simulate surgical procedures and improve our practical surgical skills. What are other surgical procedures that are possible to at least partly simulate, and from other surgical fields as well (neurosurgery, traumatology etc). Are there ways to cheaply create some sort of laparoscopic simulators? Are there some sort of exercises for surgeons/residents/students to develop and improve their hand dexterity/motor skills?
Your help would be appreciated

It's a waist of time and effort for you and your fellow premeds and won't really help you get into medschool. What will help you is studying to get higher grades and better MCAT scores.

 

[Wordead]

You guys are seriously missing the point - it's an interest group. These are things interest groups do. It's not supposed to help you get into med school. It generates excitement in premeds.

 

[Winged Scapula]

For those of you taking issue with the OP being an undergrad, he's most likely studying in a country where medical school entry is for HS leavers.

Either that or we will be seeing an advertising link pop up sometime soon.

 

[mpdoc2]

You guys are seriously missing the point - it's an interest group. These are things interest groups do. It's not supposed to help you get into med school. It generates excitement in premeds.

I'm pretty sure they're doing it because they think it'll help them get in.

 

[Bombrainiac]

You'll learn how to operate when you do your residency training. Until then, everything else you do will be end up being a colossal misuse of your time and energy. First, do well in your premed coursework and kick butt on your MCAT. Once you get into medical school, you'll find plenty more to keep your mind and your hands busy.

Trying to practice surgical skills is fun, and you can use silk ties to throw knots around a pencil without lifting the pencil from the table with the tension on the strings, or you can cut chicken skin, and then practice several different types of throws to suture it back together (i.e. running, running-locked, vertical mattress, horizontal mattress, subcuticular, running horizontal mattress, etc, etc.) and you can use different suture materials (prolene versus nylon versus chromic gut versus vicryl, etc.). All in all, though, your surgical skill will come efficiently and quickly during your residency training. Have fun with the practice, but don't get too ahead of yourself. You're better off getting into a research lab, or learning some basic anatomy and pharmacology.

 

[NickNaylor]

Uhhhhh
Hate to burst your bubble, but surgeons now have retractors that can be manually adjusted but hold their place. So, your idea sounds awesome, but come on...
YOU'RE TAKING OUR JOBS AS MEDICAL STUDENTS!

I was fortunate to have been on a minimally invasive service so I drove the camera in 99% of procedures. I don't know of this retraction that you speak of, nor do I know your plight.

 

[Psai]

I was fortunate to have been on a minimally invasive service so I drove the camera in 99% of procedures. I don't know of this retraction that you speak of, nor do I know your plight.

Trying to drive the camera in a single port surgery that everyone is new to is a special brand of hell

 

[caffeinemia]

You should have a station where you give someone two large cups of coffee then have them stand at attention for 8 hours while wearing full body gowns, cap, and face mask with 1000000 gigawatt OR lights shining on them. Make sure they are not allowed to pee, poop, speak, cough, or twitch.

 

[Kaustikos]

For those of you taking issue with the OP being an undergrad, he's most likely studying in a country where medical school entry is for HS leavers.

Either that or we will be seeing an advertising link pop up sometime soon.

Surgeon in need of good transportation?
CLICK HERE

I was fortunate to have been on a minimally invasive service so I drove the camera in 99% of procedures. I don't know of this retraction that you speak of, nor do I know your plight.

Yeah, I know what you mean. After finally being taught HOW to operate the camera, I was using it more and more. It was frustrating to just be told to hold the camera but not tell me how to move it...then yank it from me to move it and give it back.