Summer Programs VS Long-Term Research

[Krypton36]

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Would it be a wiser choice to stick with a lab long-term and eventually have my own project (maybe even get a publication or two) or match into competitive summer research programs?

 

[CielloStelatto]

Would it be a wiser choice to stick with a lab long-term and eventually have my own project (maybe even get a publication or two) or match into competitive summer research programs?

THIS. x1000. no doubt.

 

[Krypton36]

THIS. x1000. no doubt.

Alright. How about publications?

 

[reine1jb]

while there definitely are perks for sticking around in the same lab, I would give the following reasons for maybe venturing out for a summer:

1) you get another LOR. When you apply you'll notice that most schools want LORs from multiple people who can speak to your research capabilities. However, there are obviously people that do not get the chance to do these summer programs. But still having multiple LORs from research mentors is always a good idea.

2) by going somewhere where you are not "comfortable" ie somewhere outside what you are accustomed to, you can show programs that you are able to be successful in multiple places (probably pretty minor in the scheme of things).

3) I did several summer programs, you get to go to (depending on where you apply obviously) places you may not get a chance to go back to (or places you've never been to before) and you get to meet really great, interesting people.

4) if you're planning on applying to the MSTP at the institution you do a summer program at, it can never hurt to already have your foot in the door and have faculty who can speak on your behalf.

5) lastly, and you didn't say if you are at a big school or not, you may get a chance to be exposed to types of research that you wouldn't be able to get involved with at your home institution.


just some things to think about. In the end you just need to do what feels right. In concerns with the publications, it definitely can't hurt to have them but there are a lot of quality applicants that get into great MD/PhD programs without publications (high MCAT, gpa, good LORs and demonstrated research experience and passion are probably the most key)

 

[sully677]

while there definitely are perks for sticking around in the same lab, I would give the following reasons for maybe venturing out for a summer:

1) you get another LOR. When you apply you'll notice that most schools want LORs from multiple people who can speak to your research capabilities. However, there are obviously people that do not get the chance to do these summer programs. But still having multiple LORs from research mentors is always a good idea.

2) by going somewhere where you are not "comfortable" ie somewhere outside what you are accustomed to, you can show programs that you are able to be successful in multiple places (probably pretty minor in the scheme of things).

3) I did several summer programs, you get to go to (depending on where you apply obviously) places you may not get a chance to go back to (or places you've never been to before) and you get to meet really great, interesting people.

4) if you're planning on applying to the MSTP at the institution you do a summer program at, it can never hurt to already have your foot in the door and have faculty who can speak on your behalf.

5) lastly, and you didn't say if you want to a big school or not, you may get a chance to be exposed to types of research that you wouldn't be able to get involved with at your home institution.


just some things to think about. In the end you just need to do what feels right. In concerns with the publications, it definitely can't hurt to have them but there are a lot of quality applicants that get into great MD/PhD programs without publications (high MCAT, gpa, good LORs and demonstrated research experience and passion are probably the most key)

I was in this dilemma last year. I had to choose between a SURF Program and my current research job. Well I ended up staying in my lab, and it paid off with a pub so that was the benefit for me.

 

[Drexon]

I agree with reine on point 4. You never know what type of connections you'll make at these programs. I can speak of personal experience about my friend who did a summer research program and networked very well ( she also had lots of things going for her .. ) . I've seen friends also turn down programs just to stick in labs for the summer to work on their research. They applied for the sake of applying to see if they had a shot at getting in (this kinda irks me but meh stuff happens right? ).

I would advise sticking with a lab for long term. I'm assuming you're currently in a lab right now. What would happen if you were to leave for 10 weeks? Who's going to take care of your stuff IE cells , animal work, your responsibilites? Even if you manage to freeze cells, get someone else to take care of your responsibilites you'll effectivly lose 10 weeks of your time on your research project in your lab. If you were to go to another place for 10 weeks .. what can you accomplish in 10 weeks that's meaningful and worth while to publish? Just some things to think about.

There is no minimum amount of publications required to get into a MD/PhD program. At least none that I could see when I was reviewing MSTP websites.. But it's expected for you to have at least one. I've seen people get in with 1-2 publications and I've seen people get in with 8 publications. So it varies. The key is that you demonistrate that you had an impact in the lab.. in the sense that you truly contributed to the advancement of science rather than being told what to do... That's the bottom line.

Best of luck!

 

[CielloStelatto]

I just want to emphasize that my advice is always to find somewhere where you can have an independent project. Full autonomy shouldn't be expected, but it's important to play an important role on your research. Now, lots of good surf programs know they have smart students and thus you might have such an opportunity. In that case, i would say you could either stay with your lab or do a summer lab, and neither option would be significantly better than the other, depending on the specific labs, of course

good luck in whatever you decide

 

[reine1jb]

I just want to emphasize that my advice is always to find somewhere where you can have an independent project. Full autonomy shouldn't be expected, but it's important to play an important role on your research. Now, lots of good surf programs know they have smart students and thus you might have such an opportunity. In that case, i would say you could either stay with your lab or do a summer lab, and neither option would be significantly better than the other, depending on the specific labs, of course

good luck in whatever you decide

having autonomy is definitely important and unfortunately with summer programs that can be PI dependent. I know at both of my summer programs I was able to work completely by myself on my own projects. In one lab I worked under a post-doc but he was really cool and basically left me to do my own thing.

My opinions are pretty biased because I did have two great research experiences in summer programs. I will echo a post above, leaving for two summers definitely disrupted my work at my home institution.

Would I have gotten a pub if I stayed in lab? Probably but maybe not. In the big picture, publications you get as an undergrad are going to hold little weight into how your future plays out (again I would say a large number of applicants do not have publications and still get into great MD/PhD programs, maybe a senior MD/PhD student could verify that). My PI at my home institution said that spending summers at prestigious institutions would ultimately be better for me in the long run.

But whatever you decide, as long as you're spending the summer immersed in research and being as independent as possible, you really can't make a wrong decision here. good luck

 

[reine1jb]

This is taken straight from neuronix's "what are my chances" sticky. He is at one of the top MD/PhD programs in the country so I think he knows what he's talking about.

3) Do I need to publish to get into a program or into a top program?

NO. For the one millionth time. NO. It may help, but it is certainly not required. We know that a lot of factors go into publishing and many times these factors are completely out of an undergrad's control. I had nothing published when I applied and that is true for at least half of the people in my year (including the international student).

 

[harvman11]

There is no minimum amount of publications required to get into a MD/PhD program. At least none that I could see when I was reviewing MSTP websites.. But it's expected for you to have at least one. I've seen people get in with 1-2 publications and I've seen people get in with 8 publications. So it varies. The key is that you demonistrate that you had an impact in the lab.. in the sense that you truly contributed to the advancement of science rather than being told what to do... That's the bottom line.

This is a little bit misinformed... you are most certainly not expected to have a publication. I have 0 pubs, and not once was I ever asked "why don't you have a publication?" at any of my interviews. I've also gotten into quite a few MSTPs, so don't let the drive for a publication override everything else. Sure, it'll help but it's not a big deal to not have one.

However, I will agree with this poster that you do need to show you have had an impact in the lab, but this is really done by letters of recommendation, not # of publications.

As for your original question, I've taken the approach that I do research in 1 lab during school (a long term project, easy to put on hold for summers, etc.) and during the summers I go out and explore other research opportunities. Surprisingly this was actually at the advice of my PI at my long term lab, as he wanted me to get a broad experience of research and have a chance to work in multiple labs before applying to grad/med school. Also, you will generally need multiple letters of recommendation for your research, so it's definitely nice to have worked in several different labs.

 

[LadyLightning20]

I second the posters who have suggested a combination...I think if you have a project that can easily be put on hold for one summer, moving out of your project/lab/university can be a great and valuable experience.

I was actually told by one interviewer that they preferred students who had a little diversity of research - they apparently wanted to see student who had proved that they could function in more than one lab.

 

[Krypton36]

Thanks everyone. This is strictly for my future reference, but I'll definitely try and see if I can branch out eventually. Fantastic advice 🙂.

 

[flashback]

I was in this dilemma last year. I had to choose between a SURF Program and my current research job. Well I ended up staying in my lab, and it paid off with a pub so that was the benefit for me.

I was in the same position as well last year but took the opposite route.

I would highly suggest NOT branching out to another school's lab if your primary motivation is to "get your foot in the door."

Quick background: had two summers + school year research with mentor from my university which does not have much true medical research. I thought branching out to get some more health-relevant research would be a good idea for applying to MSTP programs.

Although the program I attended was pitched as being a great idea for people considering their MD/PhD (it is a top MSTP school), the reality was that the program was really run solely by a few directors of the graduate school who were NOT a part of the MSTP committee. They were really hoping to recruit good graduate students.

We had one day during the summer where we had an optional presentation about the MSTP with the dean of admissions. It was fairly pointless. It was just a bunch of people from the summer program clamoring for attention from this guy.

I made some great connections while I was there with the dean of admin of the graduate school, but she simply had no bearing on or relationship with the MSTP committee (likely not the case with all schools). Also, when you consider that at most research med schools, your PI is one of hundreds, their opinion really isn't going to be worth that much unless they're one of the superstars there (and the superstars will probably NOT be taking summer undergraduate students).

Additionally, there are some other disadvantages to leaving your current lab that I didn't think about when I did this. Think about it: you're there for maybe 10 weeks at a place where the PI is under significant stress and in all likelihood is not going to be able to meet with you 1 on 1 very often. How good do you think they're going to get to know you? The answer is probably not very well.

The biggest problem that stressed me out the most, is this:someone who you will be somewhat randomly assigned to is going to have a major impact on your future. You will be paired with someone who's research matches your interests, but for obvious reasons (time), there is typically not an interview process with the PIs. What if your new PI at this school doesn't get along with you? What if your personalities clash (it doesn't matter how personable you are, there are some INTERESTING people out there in science)? If you do a summer program, you MUST impress your new PI in a very short period of time. You really do not have an option. When you apply to MSTPs they will expect a letter of rec from this person (big red flag if it's not there) and I think it will be a bit hit or miss whether or not you get a very strong letter from this person who only saw you on/off for a short time. My point is that if things don't go well, you may be screwing yourself hard.

I was lucky and had a good experience, but MANY people in my program saw their PI maybe 3-4 times over the entire 10 week period. They typically just got stuck doing grunt work for the current post-docs or graduate students. I had to literally fight to get my own project, but it paid off in the end.

If I were doing things over again, I probably wouldn't have taken the risk. If you know you have an excellent letter from your current PI just work your butt off there and pray for a publication.

I don't mean to scare you away. It was good for me to get the experience that I did, but definitely consider what I have said before jumping into something like this.

PS. I got rejected from this MSTP pre-interview. 🙂

 

[Krypton36]

@flashback: Have you received acceptances from and MSTPs?

 

[achamess]

Just want to chime in here...

So there are good arguments for both staying in your home lab and going to another lab for the summer.

On the side of staying put, the major argument put forth is that you'll be able to get more accomplished toward the goal of producing a publication (or being a co-author on one). That's a fine reason, but not one strong enough for me to forgo an opportunity to 1) see a new lab, 2) network with lots of interesting people, 3) expand my repertoire of skills, 4) visit a different city or even country, 5) get the recognition of a nice fellowship or scholarship, 6) get one more LOR from my summer PI, 7) show adcoms that I can operate in a diversity of environments. And, on top of all that, there is just as much chance that you'd be able to get thrown a paper from a summer experience as in your home lab (given that, as has been said on this forum many times, getting authorship on a paper as a UG is a crap-shoot anyway and by no means required for a successful MSTP candidate).

It should be clear from the above that I favor the summer-away option. I participated in the HHMI International Program two summers back and it was a wonderful experience. In fact, my PI back home encouraged me to do it. I did all the things I mentioned above, and brought back much to my home lab in terms of skills learned and renewed vigor. I'd go so far as to say that my time away from my home lab did more to help my productivity there than if I had stayed put all summer.

In terms of how jumping around affected my MSTP chances, I'd say it largely helped me. I've jumped around quite a bit, but I've tried to present this lab-hopping as integral in my training for the kind of science I want to do as a grad student and beyond. Nobody has questioned me on it; on the contrary, one of the schools that accepted me specifically mentioned my summer experience as a factor in their accepting me. Take that as you will.

But, in the end, anything you do over the summer research-wise going to help you, and so I'd say make your choice based on which one you'll enjoy more.

 

[mittymark]

I'm going to agree with achamess and everyone else here...DEFINITELY BRANCH OUT. I spent a summer in another lab even though I had my own research going in college (eventually leading to an honors thesis), but those 2-3 months in another lab was invaluable. If you're spending a good two years in a lab, 2 or 3 months away won't really hurt your independent project very much, and what you stand to gain by seeing another lab, meeting new people, etc. is much greater, even on career advancement goals alone (not to mention it is more fun). Another LOR is a huge deal. YES YES YES to summer research outside your university lab.

 

[Krypton36]

Just want to chime in here...

So there are good arguments for both staying in your home lab and going to another lab for the summer.

On the side of staying put, the major argument put forth is that you'll be able to get more accomplished toward the goal of producing a publication (or being a co-author on one). That's a fine reason, but not one strong enough for me to forgo an opportunity to 1) see a new lab, 2) network with lots of interesting people, 3) expand my repertoire of skills, 4) visit a different city or even country, 5) get the recognition of a nice fellowship or scholarship, 6) get one more LOR from my summer PI, 7) show adcoms that I can operate in a diversity of environments. And, on top of all that, there is just as much chance that you'd be able to get thrown a paper from a summer experience as in your home lab (given that, as has been said on this forum many times, getting authorship on a paper as a UG is a crap-shoot anyway and by no means required for a successful MSTP candidate).

It should be clear from the above that I favor the summer-away option. I participated in the HHMI International Program two summers back and it was a wonderful experience. In fact, my PI back home encouraged me to do it. I did all the things I mentioned above, and brought back much to my home lab in terms of skills learned and renewed vigor. I'd go so far as to say that my time away from my home lab did more to help my productivity there than if I had stayed put all summer.

In terms of how jumping around affected my MSTP chances, I'd say it largely helped me. I've jumped around quite a bit, but I've tried to present this lab-hopping as integral in my training for the kind of science I want to do as a grad student and beyond. Nobody has questioned me on it; on the contrary, one of the schools that accepted me specifically mentioned my summer experience as a factor in their accepting me. Take that as you will.

But, in the end, anything you do over the summer research-wise going to help you, and so I'd say make your choice based on which one you'll enjoy more.

One of the major reasons I asked. And of course it would show adcoms that you can operate in different environments.

 

[emiko]

I haven't applied to MD/PhD yet but I will share with you my experiences. I was facing the same situation as you last summer and I eventually decided to leave my home institution lab for a prestigious summer program (~1000 people applied and less than 20 got in). I would say I have mixed feelings about this decision because I did not work well with my summer PI. I was not too excited about the project that I was assigned and thus did not work very hard (just like..maybe less than 10 hours per week and absolutely no weekend time). I also did not like my PI's "managing style" and did not enjoy the atmosphere in his lab. However, I met some really interesting students and that was the part that I treasured the most about this experience.

I don't think I will be asking my summer PI for a letter simply because I don't think it's going to be a very strong one. I will just ask a letter from the postdoc who I worked directly with and cross my fingers. Though this might seem alarming to schools, I think it's still better than sending in a mediocre letter. I do already have 6 people in mind who can send very strong letters for me so I think I will be OK. In the end, I think the schools also understand that it is impossible that a student is liked by every single PI right? I mean that's the whole reason why they do rotations in grad school.

For the coming summer, I applied for one summer program that is not in my home institution but I think it is very likely that I will just stay at my current lab. My project is going well and is likely to lead to a 1st author publication plus another 3rd author publication in a major journal (my PI is obsessed about publishing in Nature and Science, and he publishes papers there every year!). I don't know if these papers will come out before I apply for schools but I don't think I want to take another risk going into a summer program that is so short with so many unknowns. I would definitely recommend people to "branch out" but at the same time realize the risk associated with it... Personally I did 2 summer programs in the past. The first one made me decide that I wanted to be a scientist and the second one ... well you know what happened.