Surgery shifts?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

WestCoastNative

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
290
Reaction score
82
I realize that surgeons have one of the most fluctuating work schedules, if not the most. However, how do they generally work? Do they have normal work shifts (I.E. 8 A.M. - 8 P.M.), followed by on call during off time? If so, I'm not sure how that would work since most surgeries are done due to emergencies. How likely is it to have free time as an attending surgeon? I realize that 80 hours work weeks aren't anything out of the norm, but would it be possible to only work around 60 hours a week and have weekends off? I guess what I'm trying to ask is how exactly do surgeons work; average shifts, average amount of call, ability to set your own number of hours/call, etc.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Read the book The Year They Tried to Kill Me. It is about a general surgery intern, it details his full schedule and a lot on hospital hierarchy.
 
First of all, you're mistaken in your assumption that most surgeries are done in emergency situations. The vast majority of surgeries are scheduled ahead of time, and these include everything from oncologic surgeries to elective hernia repairs. Even for many trauma cases, if the patient is stable and there are no indications for going emergently to the OR, patients will be admitted overnight (or even sent home) and scheduled for surgery the next day or within a few days. Fields where schedules are a little more unpredictable include Tauma, Transplant, Vascular, etc. for obvious reasons.

Surgery is not shift work. As an attending, you will usually have clinic a few days a week and OR days the rest of the week (plus or minus academic time, depending on your practice environment). You work until you're done seeing all of your patients for the day or until you're done with all the OR cases that you have scheduled for the day (plus any associated paperwork/dictations, etc.). The amount of call you take depends entirely on your practice environment. If you're in an academic setting, you will often have residents to take care of the minor things and will only have to go in to the hospital when a patient actually needs to go to the OR.

I think that you need realize that "surgery" is a huge field and there are many different subspecialties within surgery and many different practice environments that you can more or less choose the type of schedule that you want. As a surgical resident or fellow, you will likely be working 80 hours/week or more, but there is much more flexibility as an attending to decide what you want and don't want to do.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Read the book The Year They Tried to Kill Me. It is about a general surgery intern, it details his full schedule and a lot on hospital hierarchy.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check it out.

First of all, you're mistaken in your assumption that most surgeries are done in emergency situations. The vast majority of surgeries are scheduled ahead of time, and these include everything from oncologic surgeries to elective hernia repairs. Even for many trauma cases, if the patient is stable and there are no indications for going emergently to the OR, patients will be admitted overnight (or even sent home) and scheduled for surgery the next day or within a few days. Fields where schedules are a little more unpredictable include Tauma, Transplant, Vascular, etc. for obvious reasons.

Surgery is not shift work. As an attending, you will usually have clinic a few days a week and OR days the rest of the week (plus or minus academic time, depending on your practice environment). You work until you're done seeing all of your patients for the day or until you're done with all the OR cases that you have scheduled for the day (plus any associated paperwork/dictations, etc.). The amount of call you take depends entirely on your practice environment. If you're in an academic setting, you will often have residents to take care of the minor things and will only have to go in to the hospital when a patient actually needs to go to the OR.

I think that you need realize that "surgery" is a huge field and there are many different subspecialties within surgery and many different practice environments that you can more or less choose the type of schedule that you want. As a surgical resident or fellow, you will likely be working 80 hours/week or more, but there is much more flexibility as an attending to decide what you want and don't want to do.

Well at the moment I'm interested in cardiothoracic, orthopaedic, and pediatric surgery. I've heard that all three of these are incredibly busy and stressful. Fact or just a speculation?
 
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check it out.



Well at the moment I'm interested in cardiothoracic, orthopaedic, and pediatric surgery. I've heard that all three of these are incredibly busy and stressful. Fact or just a speculation?

Like the previous poster said, it depends on the "where", for example the pediatric hospital I volunteer at has a specialized ER just for child cases so I assume many of the surgeons called down are first year pediatric surgeon fellows. In the book I mentioned, the interns did A LOT of ER work and he was working in the Midwest so it makes you wonder about the workload on the east coast; however, we must remember that it is n=1.
 
As noted above, most surgeries are scheduled, not emergent and there are all types of surgical practices.

Mine is largely oncologic. I'm in the office 2.5 days per week (usually 0800-1700 but some times later), and the OR 2.5 days per week (usually 0730-1600 but sometimes later). There is some work outside of those hours; mostly paperwork. My partners and I split call and we have few emergencies that require going in to the hospital, but the patients can be needy so there may be phone calls.

Some practices have more emergent cases and more unpredictable hours.

But it absolutely is the case that you can work 60 hours per week; however, the less you work, in general, the less you will make and most practices aren't interested in hiring the new guy who is looking to work less. Surgeons tend to be Type A personalities who enjoy working. The future may see more and more surgeons become employees. Call will depend on your particular practice environment and number of people in the call schedule.
 
Well at the moment I'm interested in cardiothoracic, orthopaedic, and pediatric surgery. I've heard that all three of these are incredibly busy and stressful. Fact or just a speculation?

Pediatric surgery is busy because there's a shortage of pediatric surgeons. And no anticipation of filling the gap.

Cardiothoracic may be busy, but I imagine a good part of this is because the cases are so incredibly long. You can't do more than 1-2 cases per day.

Ortho is also a huge field with a lot of variability in it, so just as there is a huge amount of variability in general surgery and it's specialties, the same is true within ortho. It also depends on what part of the country you're practicing in, and if you have a specialty or not.
 
Hmmmm, interesting. The answers are definitely not what I was expecting, but that's a good thing. Winged Scapula, if it isn't too personal, how do you and your partners divide the call? I'd like an example of what it's like for actual attending surgeons, but feel free to decline answering.
 
Hmmmm, interesting. The answers are definitely not what I was expecting, but that's a good thing. Winged Scapula, if it isn't too personal, how do you and your partners divide the call? I'd like an example of what it's like for actual attending surgeons, but feel free to decline answering.

We draw up a call schedule quarterly.

One of the partners has taken this on as his duty and he sends out a Doodle Poll where we request days that we want off. He then does the schedule and sends everyone a copy. Holidays are done the same way although we try to make sure that it is fair so that the same person is not always working a holiday. Last year I lucked out and wasn't on for any holidays but then one of the partners asked me if I would take Christmas for her (a total of a week straight on call). So this year I just made it known early on that despite what the schedule showed last year I took the Christmas call and requested that I not be given that holiday this year.

During the day we all take call for own patients and then at nighttime the call person covers for the practice.

If all of us are out of town, say for a conference and no one wants to stay we usually get someone else in town to cover for us. There are a few solo practitioners who will cover for us because they want us to cover them when they go on vacation.
 
We draw up a call schedule quarterly.

One of the partners has taken this on as his duty and he sends out a Doodle Poll where we request days that we want off. He then does the schedule and sends everyone a copy. Holidays are done the same way although we try to make sure that it is fair so that the same person is not always working a holiday. Last year I lucked out and wasn't on for any holidays but then one of the partners asked me if I would take Christmas for her (a total of a week straight on call). So this year I just made it known early on that despite what the schedule showed last year I took the Christmas call and requested that I not be given that holiday this year.

During the day we all take call for own patients and then at nighttime the call person covers for the practice.

If all of us are out of town, say for a conference and no one wants to stay we usually get someone else in town to cover for us. There are a few solo practitioners who will cover for us because they want us to cover them when they go on vacation.

Thanks for sharing!
 
We draw up a call schedule quarterly.

One of the partners has taken this on as his duty and he sends out a Doodle Poll where we request days that we want off. He then does the schedule and sends everyone a copy. Holidays are done the same way although we try to make sure that it is fair so that the same person is not always working a holiday. Last year I lucked out and wasn't on for any holidays but then one of the partners asked me if I would take Christmas for her (a total of a week straight on call). So this year I just made it known early on that despite what the schedule showed last year I took the Christmas call and requested that I not be given that holiday this year.

During the day we all take call for own patients and then at nighttime the call person covers for the practice.

If all of us are out of town, say for a conference and no one wants to stay we usually get someone else in town to cover for us. There are a few solo practitioners who will cover for us because they want us to cover them when they go on vacation.

Thanks for the answer 👍! This thread cleared up all of my questions, but there is one more thing; there's only one person covering on call emergencies for any given night? For example, if there are seven partners working at the same practice, than each partner would only take calls once a week? Again, I know that it works whichever way you set it up, but is that likely to happen? What if there are two orthopedic emergencies that need to be performed on immediately? Would one of the other six partners decide among themselves who would go and handle it?
 
You can...stay in the hospital, right? You don't have to go into private practice?
 
Thanks for the answer 👍! This thread cleared up all of my questions, but there is one more thing; there's only one person covering on call emergencies for any given night? For example, if there are seven partners working at the same practice, than each partner would only take calls once a week? Again, I know that it works whichever way you set it up, but is that likely to happen? What if there are two orthopedic emergencies that need to be performed on immediately? Would one of the other six partners decide among themselves who would go and handle it?

We take call a week at a time. I'm on next week and then not until November. Because our practice is breast surgical oncology, there are very few emergencies. I cannot recall the last time I had to go in after hours to see a patient.

Let's talk about the difference between emergent, urgent and elective surgery.

Most surgeries are elective. Elective does not mean the patient doesn't need a procedure. For example, cancer surgeries are typically elective and scheduled in advance.

Urgent surgeries are typically done when the patient is medically stable, a surgeon or OR is available, and delay does not result in harm to the patient. Most patients who present to the ED and need surgery fall into this category: appendectomies, trauma/orthopedic injuries, incarcerated hernias, etc.

Emergent surgeries are those which need to be done ASAP or the patient will either die or suffer serious morbidity. These are least common and would include things like ruptured/impending rupture AAA, brain herniation, patients needing a surgical airway.

Using your example of "two orthopedic emergencies" that need to be operated on right away, that is unlikely to happen. Most orthopedic and other surgical presentations are not emergent but rather urgent. For example, a dislocated fracture can be reduced or have an ex-fix placed, and definitive surgery delayed until the schedule allows. The patient with acute cholecystitis will be admitted for pain control and put on the OR schedule as the surgeon's schedule allows. When you have multiple consults at the same time, the surgeon would triage and decide what order the patients need to go in, depending on the resources available. It is rare that you would two equally emergent cases. But if you truly had multiple emergencies most practices have a "first call guy, second call guy, third call.." or the surgeon on call would call one of his partners and explain the situation and ask for help. My ex-SO is a trauma surgeon and they have the first/second/third call schedule but they always call each other in if it gets crazy or they have a difficult case and need an extra set of trained hands.

Remember, there are many surgical subspecialties where emergencies are unusual, which generally results in a better lifestyle.

You can...stay in the hospital, right? You don't have to go into private practice?

Of course. You can be employed by a hospital if you prefer.
 
Last edited:
Remember, there are many surgical subspecialties where emergencies are unusual, which generally results in a better lifestyle.

Most of the research I did dealing with surgery involved the cardiothoracic specialty. I was under the impression that most of their cases are emergent, and that an attending surgeon should expect at least two on call emergencies a week.. Than again, a lot of these horror stories I've been hearing have been from other pre-med students :laugh:

Of course. You can be employed by a hospital if you prefer.

Hospitals are generally more busy right?
 
Most of the research I did dealing with surgery involved the cardiothoracic specialty. I was under the impression that most of their cases are emergent, and that an attending surgeon should expect at least two on call emergencies a week.. Than again, a lot of these horror stories I've been hearing have been from other pre-med students :laugh:

Well in this case, the pre-meds might be right. Certainly, CT surgery patients often do require an emergent surgery, although they will often go the catheter based intervention route first.

Hospitals are generally more busy right?

Not necessarily.It will depend on the hospital.

For example, my ex did his residency at a community GS program and they did lots of appys, gallbladders, etc. in the middle of the night. I trained at a larger Tertiary care center, a place that most people didn't go for their appys, gallbladders, etc. (not that it didn't happen but we tended to see different sorts of emergencies). I worked more hours than he did but doing different things. Now out in practice, much to people's surprise, I work more than he does (largely because they cover Trauma and the SICU in shifts and has 1 week off/month for administrative duties).

At hospitals with training programs, you might be "protected" by the residents; that is, you aren't coming in to see every patient, but rely on the residents to see the consults and call you about admissions. One of my attendings told me to only call him after 10 pm if someone needed emergent surgery; otherwise I was to call at 0530 (before rounds) to inform him of admissions, deaths, etc. so he would like "informed" in the morning.

If you are assuming that a hospital employed surgeon will be busier than someone in private practice, that is incorrect. I found that the surgeons in PP were busier than the academic surgeons; part of that was type of cases, no mid-levels or residents to take the first call and the need to run a business as well. However, the employed surgeons are still busy.

A PP surgeon will have privileges at hospitals which may require ED call; hospitals want the PP surgeon to provide them business and often do not employ enough surgeons to cover the call schedule 24/7. Thus, the PP surgeons will also have ED call; at some places it is mandatory and you are on a schedule, shared with the employed surgeons and in others it is optional.

Hope that helps.
 
Top