Take the Job or the Phd Acceptance?

[neuroal]

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Hi all! I have a situation and need some guidance from those of you in PhD programs and those who are practicing in the field. I was presented with an opportunity for a wonderful job that would necessitate giving up on pursuing a PhD. I need help seeing the possible pros and cons. In a nutshell:

Since I hadn't rec'd an offer for a PhD program yet I began to look for jobs at the Master's level. (I already have a significant amt of experience in the field.) I was recommended for a position in a PP. I interviewed. I was blown away by the practice. It consists of 2 psychiatrists (adult and peds), 3 PhDs (forensic and general prac), various Master's level clinicians, and the office staff. The PhD who owns the business is extremely well known, well liked, and well connected in our state. He is the former CEO of 2 hospital systems, has published books, and is innovative. His goals are to manage the growth of his practice (5 yrs old now) in a very controlled manner. He does not want to be an administrator per se but to practice. He wants people with similar interests (forensic, neuropsych, brain rehab for adults, and general prac - CD, pain mgmt etc).

The job he offered me would entail assessment, treatment (IOP and individual), research, and possible authorship. He recently was approached to begin cognitive rehab treatment of stoke pts in nursing facilites and accepted the contract. He would like me to assist with this program (assessment, apply treatment, and measure results) as I have a NP background. He offered me the opportunity to do IOP and individual tx as well. He basically said that I could pursue my passion while there as it fits with his practice goals and personal mentoring style. For instance, I asked if he had an adolescent IOP and he asked why. I mentioned there was a need for one in our area. He thought about it for a minute and said if I wanted one we could likely start one. Wow!

He told me that I could do everything under his license and partnering with him that I would like to do as a PhD. He said the pay would be slightly less to start (45K) but as I develop programs with him etc I would make more. He advised me to decide if I want the credentials and independent license or the work/career at this level. He nicely told me to decide what I want to do next. I thought this man was too good to be true and he invited me to talk to any of his staff, come observe the practice, and talk to former coworkers and employees to know that he wasn't "blowing smoke". I did - and he's not. I'm impressed at the regard people have for him. For instance, he wanted to bring an EBT to the inpatient facility he was CEO so he called Marsha Linehan and paid for 2 weeks of her time and flew out three therapists along with himself to train directly with her.

My priorites are in order - practice in assessment and treatment of brain/NP, job security, stay in my area (family established here), research, writing books would be an incredible opportunity, and I wouldn't mind administering programs or some of the practice (former project manager) . I could also assist with some forensics (hadn't really considered that track). I am 42 years old, married, and have 2 kids 15, 19 - not a spring chicken in other words. 🙂 My family wants me to do what I want but also want me here for them and my husband wants to start planning our strategy for retirement. Money is not a huge factor either for the family or how I personally look at things. They just want me to be happy. 🙂

Then comes in a possible PhD acceptance - rec'd email last evening. It is funded and has a small stipend, in the area, and a nice fit. 6-7 yrs of lost income. Independence and the credential/license.

If you had to choose, what would you do? I really need some guidance fron those who have been down this road. I connected to this PhD as soon as we started talking and have a lot of respect for him. It feels like I should do this but what if I'm wrong? Decisions, decisions! Help! Thanks so much for your time and assistance!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

That's tough--with NP, the doctorate (and particularly the subsequent formal postdoc) really is necessary to fully and competently administer and interpret assessment results. But if administration of the measures rather than full-on interpretation is going to be the predominant component of your assessment duties, and you're ok with that, then the current job would be really tough to pass up.

For the administration aspect, while a PhD can also help with that, it's generally not something you couldn't pick up as you go along (as you've likely noticed in your previous experiences). The doctorate just helps your application get bumped to the top of the pile sometimes, which in this case isn't needed.

In the end, it sounds like most of what you'd like to do is possible with a masters and appropriate on-the-job supervision and training. The crux is really the NP side of things, and depends on whether you're ok with what I've mentioned above in terms of practice and level of competence/knowledge/etc.

 

[neuroal]

That's tough--with NP, the doctorate (and particularly the subsequent formal postdoc) really is necessary to fully and competently administer and interpret assessment results. But if administration of the measures rather than full-on interpretation is going to be the predominant component of your assessment duties, and you're ok with that, then the current job would be really tough to pass up.

For the administration aspect, while a PhD can also help with that, it's generally not something you couldn't pick up as you go along (as you've likely noticed in your previous experiences). The doctorate just helps your application get bumped to the top of the pile sometimes, which in this case isn't needed.

In the end, it sounds like most of what you'd like to do is possible with a masters and appropriate on-the-job supervision and training. The crux is really the NP side of things, and depends on whether you're ok with what I've mentioned above in terms of practice and level of competence/knowledge/etc.

Thank you! For the NP, I like the assessment and interpretation (I can do parts of the reports) but am most interested in the devlopment and application of the rehab piece and then measuring results. To me NP is a tool to treat (at least from my perspective and interests).

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Follow up question: is your master's license-able or is there any way you could get a master's level license? The job sounds like a good gig. Actually, you'd make what I made last yr as a licensed psychologist in PP, so the financial piece isn't all that bad either. The only thing that would make me uncomfortable was working in the field for the rest of my career, but never being able to work independently. Neuropsych is its own beast, so you couldn't really work independently with only a master's, but what if you wanted to break away from this practice some day to do therapy or take a job? I would want to leave that door open.

The other consideration is that graduate school is best described as hell on earth. Do you want to be miserable until you are 50? Also, do you have thoughts about when you might want to retire or semi-retire? My parents retired at 58 (clearly NOT psychologists!) and now they are just enjoying life. It seems if you were not to get started in your career until you were 50, you'd essentially end up working until you are no longer physically able in order to make that a worthwhile investment. That works for some people, but it wouldn't be my choice. It also sounds like you won't be able to relocate which would be a huge obstacle for internship and the additional training required for neuropsych.

You also sound very enthusiastic about this job. Just worth noting. 🙂

Good luck making this difficult decision!

Dr. E

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Follow up question: is your master's license-able or is there any way you could get a master's level license?

The other consideration is that graduate school is best described as hell on earth. Do you want to be miserable until you are 50?

These two things. If you can be licensed at the masters-level, you are in a situation similar to me. I started a PhD program that I hated from the moment I walked in. I found a PhD who has mentored me and I am going to drop out of the program and continue working with that person. I didn't see the point of getting the doctorate from the program I was in--it was a repeat of everything I did in the master's program and would have enabled me to do the same things, and nothing more, with SO much more stress and hassle.

If you are credentialed as a psych NP, that's probably a different story--you'd likely have much different coursework and different opportunities when you get the PhD, right?

You don't have much time to think about this, as April 15th is right around the corner, but I would caution you not to be lured in by the thrill of getting the PhD. It's tough. You just never know what kind of hell might be awaiting you when you walk through those doors. It would really stink to lose out on the opportunity to work in this practice.

Let us know what you decide!

 

[neuroal]

To answer the questions:
No, my state does not license at the Master's level currently. However, it may become an opportunity in the future.

I'd be doing a mixture of ind therapy, IOP, assessment, cognitive rehab of pts, and possibly admin. I'm ok with doing assessment only part of the time. Creating the programming for the adolescent IOP appeals to me as much.

I appreciate everyone's candor on the PhD program. One thing I was asked was how many more developmental psych and and personality classes did I need to take and what value would they add to my practice? He had a good point as do you all.

My husband is a numbers cruncher type. He added up the income over the 7 yrs of training that would be lost, the income without any upward movement, and the pymt of school loans in 10 yrs vs earning potential with a PhD. Basically he believes the PhD will NOT pay for itself. And he wants me home of course but he said to do what makes me happy and the family is behind me all the way. I am so blessed!

Dr. E, I do not want to be miserable at 50. LOL! But I do want to be employed. And yes, I have the utmost respect for the PhD I'd work for as you astutely picked up on. He is extremely successful, both professionally and financially, and respected. He and I "clicked" and he talked to me for over 2 hrs He said to talk to my family and other professionals and call him on his cell next week to come back in to discuss some more details. I respect the way he handled it.

Psychadelic, thanks for sharing your story. Your experience is valuable to me. Part of me is asking myself why would I work so hard to get into a program and then turn it down for a non-licensed job? Am I crazy? LOL! I can fully practice under his supervision at my level and the $ is decent. If I never make more than the starting salary I want to do this work and provide cutting edge treatments for brain rehab. That excites me. I could be happy and fulfilled there without a license (and that may chg in our state - who knows?).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thank you! For the NP, I like the assessment and interpretation (I can do parts of the reports) but am most interested in the devlopment and application of the rehab piece and then measuring results. To me NP is a tool to treat (at least from my perspective and interests).

Administrative duties, program development, and similar....that all sounds great. However, at the MS level and licensure (whether it is as a counselor/MFT/etc), I do not believe the above would be appropriate based on "scope of practice" parameters. Being supervised under his license is not sufficient to mitigate the scope of practice concerns.

 

[neuroal]

Administrative duties, program development, and similar....that all sounds great. However, at the MS level and licensure (whether it is as a counselor/MFT/etc), I do not believe the above would be appropriate based on "scope of practice" parameters. Being supervised under his license is not sufficient to mitigate the scope of practice concerns.

I can do intake, assessment and interpretation of some tests with his supervision (i.e. WAIS for example) but not the interpretation of the NP specific tests (a NP would do it in the practice). I also can complete certain sections of the reporting w/the NP (history, behavioral observations etc), create treatment plans, complete the intervention for the rehab piece (ind and group therapy etc) under supervision all of which are acceptable at the Master's level across disciplines here (the MFT, LPCC etc you mentioned). Also, the NP duties I would be responsible for include assessment (like a psychometrician) and teaming on the patients. Then of course there's the administration, program development, and test scoring etc you mentioned. Thanks!

 

[cara susanna]

Wait, how can you permanently practice therapy if you're not licensed (even under a licensed clinician's supervision)?

 

[Goobernut]

If you truly think you will enjoy your work environment as much as you describe, I'd say take the job and not the PhD. Being 39, I understand your dilemma, I went through a similar decision process (sans the awesome job offer hahaha) this last summer -- my family being equally supportive. I'm the numbers cruncher and I came to the same conclusion as your husband. It would be vastly different numbers game for someone younger of course 🙂. The difference in money would be even more of a deficit for you because you already have a masters.

Also, I really feel that people undervalue work environment and "fit." My goal at this point is not to only make money, but to "fit." If you have the fit without the additional training, then it isn't worth it in my opinion. Sometimes, those of us who like to learn get so caught up in being "educated" and wanting to be an (the) expert that it is hard to settle for what is considered a lesser degree. However, in reality, I don't think it's that black and white. Getting the PhD does not guarantee happiness or more money. More education yes! But even as psychedelic pointed out, it could be more education in something that necessarily won't be needed to reach your career goals.

PhD's are the experts -- they are the top tier in education, but do YOU need one to have a happy fulfilling career? From your post it doesn't sound like it.

 

[neuroal]

Wait, how can you permanently practice therapy if you're not licensed (even under a licensed clinician's supervision)?

That's how it is under a PhD's supervision per the Board at the Master's level. I think that's one of the reasons they're working to have licensing at the Master's level for clinical psychology in the state as well (or so the rumor goes). All LPC, LISW, MFT etc can do private practice therapy should they choose at the Master's level.

 

[neuroal]

If you truly think you will enjoy your work environment as much as you describe, I'd say take the job and not the PhD. Being 39, I understand your dilemma, I went through a similar decision process (sans the awesome job offer hahaha) this last summer -- my family being equally supportive. I'm the numbers cruncher and I came to the same conclusion as your husband. It would be vastly different numbers game for someone younger of course 🙂. The difference in money would be even more of a deficit for you because you already have a masters.

Also, I really feel that people undervalue work environment and "fit." My goal at this point is not to only make money, but to "fit." If you have the fit without the additional training, then it isn't worth it in my opinion. Sometimes, those of us who like to learn get so caught up in being "educated" and wanting to be an (the) expert that it is hard to settle for what is considered a lesser degree. However, in reality, I don't think it's that black and white. Getting the PhD does not guarantee happiness or more money. More education yes! But even as psychedelic pointed out, it could be more education in something that necessarily won't be needed to reach your career goals.

PhD's are the experts -- they are the top tier in education, but do YOU need one to have a happy fulfilling career? From your post it doesn't sound like it.

Great points! Thank you. Hubby is still recrunching numbers for the PhD just in case. LOL! May not even be an issue as the email for the PhD program was only indicating I "may" receive an offer Monday. (???) If not the decision is made for me in a way. I also have a job as a PHP counselor now doing case management, program development, and PHP therapy that pays close to the other opportunity plus that one would qualify for loan forgiveness (non-profit) which is another thing to consider (I think I was told $10K per year of FT work there).

Money is not the deciding factor for me. As you said, that fit is important.

 

[Pragma]

I can do intake, assessment and interpretation of some tests with his supervision (i.e. WAIS for example) but not the interpretation of the NP specific tests (a NP would do it in the practice). I also can complete certain sections of the reporting w/the NP (history, behavioral observations etc), create treatment plans, complete the intervention for the rehab piece (ind and group therapy etc) under supervision all of which are acceptable at the Master's level across disciplines here (the MFT, LPCC etc you mentioned). Also, the NP duties I would be responsible for include assessment (like a psychometrician) and teaming on the patients. Then of course there's the administration, program development, and test scoring etc you mentioned. Thanks!

I can't really imagine anything you could do beyond administration of tests that would fly ethically at the master's level. But it sounds like there is enough other stuff as a part of this job to make it enticing.

 

[cara susanna]

That's how it is under a PhD's supervision per the Board at the Master's level. I think that's one of the reasons they're working to have licensing at the Master's level for clinical psychology in the state as well (or so the rumor goes). All LPC, LISW, MFT etc can do private practice therapy should they choose at the Master's level.

That just seems like a really bad idea to me. Hope that they allow Masters-level licensing soon.

 

[neuroal]

I can't really imagine anything you could do beyond administration of tests that would fly ethically at the master's level. But it sounds like there is enough other stuff as a part of this job to make it enticing.

Thanks! I called the Board to check a few weeks ago. This is how Master's level clinical psych folks practice here when there is supervision (i.e. the sup is overseeing all work on a daily basis). Again, I'm guessing it is because an LPC etc can do that work at the master's level as well. If the licensing regs change then it would become a moot point as I could be licensed. However, I may not need to worry about that part depending on what I would be doing.

 

[neuroal]

Are you saying that an LISW, LPCC, MFT etc in your states can't open private practices should they choose to do so? I thought that was how it was across states. I didn't know they couldn't.

 

[Pragma]

Thanks! I called the Board to check a few weeks ago. This is how Master's level clinical psych folks practice here when there is supervision (i.e. the sup is overseeing all work on a daily basis). Again, I'm guessing it is because an LPC etc can do that work at the master's level as well. If the licensing regs change then it would become a moot point as I could be licensed. However, I may not need to worry about that part depending on what I would be doing.

I guess if you are supervised by a PhD. But that would have to get really old. You just can't skip over the training that is necessary in order to adequately perform all necessary assessment functions. Even things like the interviewing and the background - at least if the reports are any good, there is a fair amount of interpretation that goes into what details get discussed in these sections. Sure, there can be some fairly standard information, but at least for me those sections often include other things - which I never would have known how to decide about without my doctoral and postdoctoral training.

Just a neuropsychologist wanting to protect our terf here 😎 and I also hope that the neuropsychologists at your practice are at least board eligible.

 

[neuroal]

I guess if you are supervised by a PhD. But that would have to get really old. You just can't skip over the training that is necessary in order to adequately perform all necessary assessment functions. Even things like the interviewing and the background - at least if the reports are any good, there is a fair amount of interpretation that goes into what details get discussed in these sections. Sure, there can be some fairly standard information, but at least for me those sections often include other things - which I never would have known how to decide about without my doctoral and postdoctoral training.

Just a neuropsychologist wanting to protect our terf here 😎 and I also hope that the neuropsychologists at your practice are at least board eligible.

I think I may have created a little confusion. The NP duties would be assessment and scoring and parts of the report that would be a part of any typical psychological report. It would not be beyond that. You are absolutely right on protecting the field of NP and I respect your training and completely agree with that.

The therapy would be individual and group and those aspects that are used in brain rehab for stroke victims let's say (certain activities to address depression etc). All other duties would likely be adminstrative and programming. I also have the opportunity to participate in writing with him and he said any training seminars for CE etc he would pay for to continue my training. So that's a nice thing as well. If he adds the NP (as it seems like he plans to due to the stroke pts) they will be board certified. I wouldn't want to work with anyone who wasn't. Thanks for your insight!

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I'm confused now. What is your masters training? Do you have a masters in clinical psychology? I thought NP meant nurse practitioner, but now I'm seeing that you probably mean neuropsychology.

 

[neuroal]

I'm confused now. What is your masters training? Do you have a masters in clinical psychology? I thought NP meant nurse practitioner, but now I'm seeing that you probably mean neuropsychology.

I'm so sorry! I meant neuropsychology. My master's is in Clinical Psychology w/a NP focus and I have completed an intensive year of practicum (over 600 hours of Face to Face) training in general psychology in inpatient care. I also have a degree in neurosurgical technology with advanced training, which is medical, but doesn't really apply unless you consider I have solid training in neuroanatomy and physiology of the brain and am trained to assist on operations in the OR. We worked extensively with the NP folks in the OR and that's how I came to appreciate the field.

So, given that I meant a Master's in Clinical Psych, is your recommendation still the same? 😀

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think I may have created a little confusion. The NP duties would be assessment and scoring and parts of the report that would be a part of any typical psychological report. It would not be beyond that. You are absolutely right on protecting the field of NP and I respect your training and completely agree with that.

Thank you for the further explanation. I think you are approaching this in a responsible way, I just want to correct something I saw that has some very real-world implications that aren't readily apparent to students and clinicians alike. Many mistake NP/RP objections to non-specialists conducting NP assessments as purely a turf war, but I wanted to provide a real life case example that I use in training w. supervisees to illustrate why proper training is essential.

I can do intake, assessment and interpretation of some tests with his supervision (i.e. WAIS for example) but not the interpretation of the NP specific tests (a NP would do it in the practice).

There is no such thing as an "NP specific test", there are just different assessment measures that are administered, scored, and data interpreted through the lens of NP. The WAIS is a great example of this point, as it may be used as part of an educational assessment, forensic assessment, etc...but how the data is interpreted within the case as a whole is so important.

For example, I tested someone who sustained a significant brain injury, and they needed to know how that injury may impact their ability to return to work (at a high-demand white collar job). Their performance on the WAIS-IV was wholly average (all avg w one or two low avg/high avg. sub-tests). If you just saw their index scores and did a quick once over on their subtest SS's you'd think..."good to go!" Interpreting that data as stated and writing up sections of a report based just on that data would have been a huge mistake.

Their actual level of functioning based on demographically adjusted norms for the WAIS, WMS, etc. when combined with the rest of my 6-8hr battery, concerning lesions found on imaging, some bizarre behavior reported by other specialists, and other previously unknown data collected during my interview painted a far different story. There was a 20+ pt drop (depending on measure) in the current level and estimated pre-morbid IQ level of functioning, a bunch of statistically significant differences btw WAIS & WMS subtests when demo adjusted, subtle but important deficits in executive functioning, and a couple of telling neurological symptoms I noted on record review and reproduced during my eval. If I just went w. my tech's standard scoring, beh. obs., and 2 cents about overall performance my report would have been woefully inaccurate and possibly put my patient in a compromised position at work.

As an aside, I have two awesome techs that have been administering and scoring for 10+ yrs each, but it'd be unrealistic to expect them to know when/why it would have been a mistake to go with the original data, and why the supporting data led me to recommend a number of additions to the current treatment plan and eventual return to work plan that were far more involved than expected. Most licensed psychologists who don't regularly do this kind of assessment work would have missed the above red flags too....which is why the interpretation and written reports should only be done by properly trained clinicians. The nuance in interpretation can make a huge difference in practice, which is why interpretation of something like the WAIS cannot be done without full consideration of all other data too.

 

[neuroal]

EditThanks for explaining that T4C! I've seen this type of situation as well with epilepsy and brain tumor pts. I think the important thing is to have well trained techs who can confer with the NP as they go if needed so that adjustments to the battery can be made on the fly if needed. If my observations are off or what I write is not accurate the NP has to change it to what is correct - hence the supervision. If the practice grows to include full on NP, then the opportunity is there to learn more.

We have someone in my cohort on a prac site that writes the entire interpretation and then they do a case study w/the NP. The NP trains and reviews and writes the report (often agreeing with the student's observations/interpretations and sometimes not so much). The process is complex and requires someone board certified in NP to interpret the results.

Bottom line is we are doing basic assessments to start (some cognitive functioning and a whole lot of mood/attn etc) and not full on NP batteries (at this point - they are adding the NP possibly soon). I just like doing some assessment work whether NP or not. We'll see how the practice grows that part but they plan to do so competently with the right people in place.

I just found out in our state the courts have protected the ability of LPCs to give assessments and interpret them and then write reports independently. I don't think they're NP and are more basic but I find that alarming. I guess when you consider what the School Psych folks do at the Master's level it's similar though.

 

[Goobernut]

This is sorta off topic at this point, but I'm curious, doesn't your master's in clinical psych get you close to eligibility for a LPC license? Most states that don't offer licensing at the masters level for clinical psych (specifically allowing people to be called a "psychologist" or a "psychological associate" -- like Texas does), allows people with those degrees to get a LPC or LMHC or whatever they call it in their own state.

Or would there be any advantage at all to you to try and acquire an LPC? What types of licenses are people in your cohort going to get?

 

[MBellows]

This is sorta off topic at this point, but I'm curious, doesn't your master's in clinical psych get you close to eligibility for a LPC license? Most states that don't offer licensing at the masters level for clinical psych (specifically allowing people to be called a "psychologist" or a "psychological associate" -- like Texas does), allows people with those degrees to get a LPC or LMHC or whatever they call it in their own state.

Or would there be any advantage at all to you to try and acquire an LPC? What types of licenses are people in your cohort going to get?

In Texas the LPC and LPA are quite different. I imagine if they can ever get steam to make Texas a CACREP/CORE only LPC model it will raise a lot of hell. As it stands, LPA's can do absolutely nothing without a supervisor present. That includes therapy.

LPC's can do therapy independently, and can administer (some) tests that they are trained to do with somewhat limited scope for interpretation (test makers do a marginally ok job at leveling to help avoid selling tests to people that shouldn't be giving them). They can also work under a psychologist as a psychometrician.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

So, given that I meant a Master's in Clinical Psych, is your recommendation still the same? 😀

It seems like you'd be license-eligible, then, especially with those prac hours. Well, I think you need to, of course, consider your age and opportunity cost (and I get it, because I'm getting up there, too...closer to 40 than most), as well as the opportunities in the PhD program--will you have practicums and research opportunities that will enable you to do a neuropsych internship, etc.? My doctoral program didn't have any of that, so it was a repeat of my master's--worse, in fact (I had good testing classes in my master's, the same degree as yours, so the doc program didn't get me anywhere). If I had more rigorous opportunities, it would be a slightly different story. So, if you can be a neuropsychologist after your training, great...but for how long? And at what cost (not just $$)?

Also, what I tell all of the older applicants that I encounter--be ready to deal with a boatload of 20-somethings and all that entails, if you do go to school. For better or worse, that is the reality.

Tough call.

 

[Goobernut]

In Texas the LPC and LPA are quite different. I imagine if they can ever get steam to make Texas a CACREP/CORE only LPC model it will raise a lot of hell. As it stands, LPA's can do absolutely nothing without a supervisor present. That includes therapy.

LPC's can do therapy independently, and can administer (some) tests that they are trained to do with somewhat limited scope for interpretation (test makers do a marginally ok job at leveling to help avoid selling tests to people that shouldn't be giving them). They can also work under a psychologist as a psychometrician.

Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I know in Texas the LPA and LPC have different requirements. I meant what do people do in states that don't have a LPA. I mean, in states that don't have an LPA, what license would one get with a master's in clinical psych, I just assumed an LPC/LMHC right?

I guess another way to phrase this is why isn't the OP getting licensed with an LPC if her state doesn't have an LPA? What benefit is it to her to not get the LPC, or does her Master's in Clinical psychology program not meet her states LPC requirements?

What benefit would it be for her school to offer a terminal master's in clinical psychology (or is that the incorrect assumption I'm making) if it doesn't lead to licensure?

Or alternately, Why isn't she getting an independent license?

 

[Pragma]

I just found out in our state the courts have protected the ability of LPCs to give assessments and interpret them and then write reports independently. I don't think they're NP and are more basic but I find that alarming. I guess when you consider what the School Psych folks do at the Master's level it's similar though.

Yeah I'll be watching those types of things closely. Testing is really the main way to differentiate between scope of practice between master's and doctoral level providers.

I am not trying to harp on you - and I know that a lot of folks get awesome experience at the master's level with patients. I know I did. But there are some supervisors who (IMO wrongly) rely too much on their techs. I have seen one let their techs write significant portions of reports for them. Considering that NPs often hardly see their patients in some models of care (I was trained to see your own patients and never had a tech), I think this is a huge mistake and really is just about time/money. Not to say that someone like you might not be able to contribute some great things to a report, but I think that the NP has to be the one doing this activity. If they aren't, I don't think they are practicing very effectively.

 

[neuroal]

Sorry if I wasn't clear -- I know in Texas the LPA and LPC have different requirements. I meant what do people do in states that don't have a LPA. I mean, in states that don't have an LPA, what license would one get with a master's in clinical psych, I just assumed an LPC/LMHC right?

I guess another way to phrase this is why isn't the OP getting licensed with an LPC if her state doesn't have an LPA? What benefit is it to her to not get the LPC, or does her Master's in Clinical psychology program not meet her states LPC requirements?

What benefit would it be for her school to offer a terminal master's in clinical psychology (or is that the incorrect assumption I'm making) if it doesn't lead to licensure?

Or alternately, Why isn't she getting an independent license?

In our state you cannot license as an LPC with a master's in CP. You would do a terminal program in CP to work under a licensed PhD and some adminstration positions. However, my college will likely transfer credits from the CP program to the masters LPC program with little loss of credits. I'm checking that out as a fail safe. Then I could take about 6 classes and license as an LPC if I wanted. Thanks for inquiring!

 

[neuroal]

Yeah I'll be watching those types of things closely. Testing is really the main way to differentiate between scope of practice between master's and doctoral level providers.

I am not trying to harp on you - and I know that a lot of folks get awesome experience at the master's level with patients. I know I did. But there are some supervisors who (IMO wrongly) rely too much on their techs. I have seen one let their techs write significant portions of reports for them. Considering that NPs often hardly see their patients in some models of care (I was trained to see your own patients and never had a tech), I think this is a huge mistake and really is just about time/money. Not to say that someone like you might not be able to contribute some great things to a report, but I think that the NP has to be the one doing this activity. If they aren't, I don't think they are practicing very effectively.

I agree. And I don't think you're harping on me either. 😀

 

[Goobernut]

In our state you cannot license as an LPC with a master's in CP. You would do a terminal program in CP to work under a licensed PhD and some adminstration positions. However, my college will likely transfer credits from the CP program to the masters LPC program with little loss of credits. I'm checking that out as a fail safe. Then I could take about 6 classes and license as an LPC if I wanted. Thanks for inquiring!

Okay, thanks! Licensure is so different by state. Everything makes more sense to me now. Good luck with your searches 🙂

 

[Rivi]

TAKE THE JOB!!!!

Do it for a year or two and see how it goes.

And in case I wasn't clear before,

TAKE THE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Doctor Eliza]

In our state you cannot license as an LPC with a master's in CP. You would do a terminal program in CP to work under a licensed PhD and some adminstration positions. However, my college will likely transfer credits from the CP program to the masters LPC program with little loss of credits. I'm checking that out as a fail safe. Then I could take about 6 classes and license as an LPC if I wanted. Thanks for inquiring!

I think that this is a really important point for people who are contemplating starting clinical/counseling doctoral programs to be aware of. I think many people think to themselves, "Well, if I don't like it, I'll just leave with my master's and do therapy." In many (most) states this is not going to work. LPC boards are different from psych boards and if your state doesn't license master's in psychology, there is a very good chance that you will not be able to find a way to get a license with your MA. I had a friend who went to a PsyD program that was designed to provide a license-able master's in the state where the program was housed. However, she moved. She had problems completing her degree and wanted a master's license. The LPC board wouldn't consider her at all (even though she had a ton of training and coursework) because she was not from an LPC program.

Dr. E

 

[neuroal]

TAKE THE JOB!!!!

Do it for a year or two and see how it goes.

And in case I wasn't clear before,

TAKE THE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL! Thank you for your opinion. 😀

I spoke to one of his Master's level clinicians & he said my impressions that this guy is an incredible PhD and that it is too good to be true were the impression he had as well when he was hired. He said the PhD is one of the most amazing people he's ever met who truly cares about people. He believes the practice will continue to thrive mostly due to the connections that were made over his 25yrs in the field, his CEO experience in major hospitals, and everyone really likes/respects the guy. This clinician really was favorable.

I'm excited for the opportunity to train with someone who was directly trained by Linehan.

I'm really leaning towards the job. It seems most on here believe if I function responsibly, and things are stable there, that pursuing the PhD program and licensure may not be necessary. I also have the option of working towards the LPC license with some classes on a parttime basis - it looks like at my school or online are options - for those concerned about licensure - which makes sense.

We'll see what tomorrow brings!

Thank you to those on these boards who are always willing to help those of us earlier in our education or careers when we need guidance and experiences from you. It's a nice community here! 😎

 

[neuroal]

I just wanted to share that my hubby said I should do whatever makes me happy but has been playing and singing songs all weekend such as "Ain't no sunshine when she's gone..." and "You picked a fine time to leave me Lucille" and "I can't live if living is without you..." I have a great family and one with a wonderful sense of humor! LOL!

 

[neuroal]

I asked for a deferment for a year and it was granted. I spoke to my sister yesterday who had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and she has taken a turn for the worst. I am one of her main supports. I cannot make a decision in 2 days that will affect the rest of my life. The year will help me take care of my sister until she passes and check out all opportunities with more time and consideration. Thanks all.

 

[PHD12]

I asked for a deferment for a year and it was granted. I spoke to my sister yesterday who had been diagnosed with terminal cancer and she has taken a turn for the worst. I am one of her main supports. I cannot make a decision in 2 days that will affect the rest of my life. The year will help me take care of my sister until she passes and check out all opportunities with more time and consideration. Thanks all.

Good luck. You seem like someone who will do well no matter where you go. I think you made the right decision for you, especially since your sister is sick. A PhD program would have interfered with care taking responsibilities. I'm happy to hear that they granted you a deferment.