teaching options with an M.D.

[hereandnow]

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I have been told that M.D. psychiatrists are generally not permitted to teach in clinical psychology Ph.D./Psy.D programs -- unless they are teaching about pharmacology. (Apparently this might have something to do with Ph.D. clinical psychology programs attempting to maintain their accreditation by maintaining clinical Ph.D. individuals primarily as faculty members.)

One of the most satisfying teaching experiences that I have had, however, has been in teaching a gestalt-therapy psychology practicum course at one of the local colleges at the undergraduate level. I would be interested one day in teaching a similar course at the graduate level.

Would I be giving this option up if I were to choose to pursue a career in psychiatry ?

thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have been told that M.D. psychiatrists are generally not permitted to teach in clinical psychology Ph.D./Psy.D programs -- unless they are teaching about pharmacology. (Apparently this might have something to do with Ph.D. clinical psychology programs attempting to maintain their accreditation by maintaining clinical Ph.D. individuals primarily as faculty members.)

It most likely has to do with competency and training (perceived or otherwise). My pharmacology professor was a research pharmacist, so he was very well versed in the topic and had the background to support it. I don't think I'd be able to secure a position at a nursing program teaching Nursing Theory because I don't have the background to support such a move...even though I may really enjoy the topic matter.

One of the most satisfying teaching experiences that I have had, however, has been in teaching a gestalt-therapy psychology practicum course at one of the local colleges at the undergraduate level. I would be interested one day in teaching a similar course at the graduate level.

Would I be giving this option up if I were to choose to pursue a career in psychiatry ?

I have seen some psychodynamic training by MD's as continuing education and/or as part of seminar training [NYC area], though I doubt you'd have the same opportunity in a clinical/counseling program. I'm not sure how it would work at the MA/MS level, maybe they would be more flexible.

 

[Faebinder]

I personally consider any training done by MDs/DOs to PsychDs and vica versa to be a traitor to their own kinds.

There is a reason why MD/DO go to med school.. you can't teach pharmacology in a single semester course, there is way more to it. Medications are in the blood and affect the body entirely. Psych meds can be damaging to the body and there is no way you can convince me that the PsychDs know enough about the body to know that.

Having said that, there is nothing stopping you from teaching as a psychologist if you have the background and qualifications of a psychologist. You can apply for an appointment in the psychology department if you have the PhD.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Having said that, there is nothing stopping you from teaching as a psychologist if you have the background and qualifications of a psychologist. You can apply for an appointment in the psychology department if you have the PhD.

So a Ph.D. / Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology....?

No argument there.

I do disagree that a Ph.D. wouldn't know enough. Often it is the Ph.D. that teaches specialty areas because they have more specific training. Once on residency, I can understand why a MD/DO is much more appropriate to teach seminars in that setting.

 

[BobA]

So a Ph.D. / Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology....?

No argument there.

I do disagree that a Ph.D. wouldn't know enough. Often it is the Ph.D. that teaches specialty areas because they have more specific training. Once on residency, I can understand why a MD/DO is much more appropriate to teach seminars in that setting.

I would never argue that a PhD in pharmacology doesn't know enough pharm to teach pharm. HOWEVER, in med school it's been my experience that while PhD pharmacists are good at teaching the theory of pharm, they often lack in teaching practical pharm. I have tended to get much better practical pharm knowledge from MD's who actually diagnose and treat everyday. That being said, it's nice to talk to a PharmD about unusual pharm things (really high does haldol decanoate, or for patients with renal failure, detoxing, etc).

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I would never argue that a PhD in pharmacology doesn't know enough pharm to teach pharm. HOWEVER, in med school it's been my experience that while PhD pharmacists are good at teaching the theory of pharm, they often lack in teaching practical pharm. I have tended to get much better practical pharm knowledge from MD's who actually diagnose and treat everyday. That being said, it's nice to talk to a PharmD about unusual pharm things (really high does haldol decanoate, or for patients with renal failure, detoxing, etc).

It's all in the attitude. I had GREAT lectures from PharmDs in med school and residency, and we have a PharmD attached to our service at my hospital who is phenomenal, and practical--especially when it comes to things like alerting us to drug interactions, reconciling outpatient med lists, and expediting non-formulary requests. 😍

I fail to see how interdisciplinary sniping gets us anywhere...

 

[hereandnow]

I have seen some psychodynamic training by MD's as continuing education and/or as part of seminar training [NYC area], though I doubt you'd have the same opportunity in a clinical/counseling program. I'm not sure how it would work at the MA/MS level, maybe they would be more flexible.

Thanks T4C -- interesting ideas. Appreciate the thought about the seminar training that MD's might be able to do.

Just thinking about this out-loud... it might even be more natural, maybe, if I were an MD, to try to teach a gestalt-type class / practicum in an MD residency program, possibly. I think there might be residency programs that are friendly to the possibility of gestalt work?

PS. Thanks OldPsychDoc for balancing out the thread.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Thanks T4C -- interesting ideas. Appreciate the thought about the seminar training that MD's might be able to do.

Just thinking about this out-loud... it might even be more natural, maybe, if I were an MD, to try to teach a gestalt-type class / practicum in an MD residency program, possibly. I think there might be residency programs that are friendly to the possibility of gestalt work?

PS. Thanks OldPsychDoc for balancing out the thread.

You are likely to find that most residency programs (but even more so community programs that are a bit more distant from academia) are friendly to MDs who are willing to teach a respectable course about almost anything.

For example, upon taking a full time clinical job at my current hospital, I was solicited (begged) to convert my "wasted" PhD in neuroscience into a class for the residents--so every-other year, I pull together 8 lectures on basic neuroscience in psychiatry. It's much fun and much appreciated by my program. If you have an area of "expertise", let it out!

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Huh, I wonder if they'd let me use my 'wasted' masters in human evolution for anything.

 

[Faebinder]

Huh, I wonder if they'd let me use my 'wasted' masters in human evolution for anything.

Yes sir, we need you to fertilize as many women as possible for the human race to evolve into more psychiatry friendly beings.

 

[DrJosephKim]

Education is never a waste. Some schools really value research experience. You can have an MD but have more experience doing psychology research compared to a PhD or PsyD. Make sure you're willing to spend that type of time in research. At the end, you may find yourself with an MD, PhD after your name.

 

[nancysinatra]

Huh, I wonder if they'd let me use my 'wasted' masters in human evolution for anything.

Yes, I believe the orthopedic surgery department can always use a good updating in that area.

OMG did I just say that??

 

[masterofnone]

what about teaching undergrad w/an MD and psych residency? would it be acceptable to teach basic science/biology/psychology courses?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

what about teaching undergrad w/an MD and psych residency? would it be acceptable to teach basic science/biology/psychology courses?

Anything's "acceptable" if you want to take the pay cut!

 

[masterofnone]

ha! i mean to say, is the MD considered a "terminal degree" on par with a PhD for undergrad. that is, would an undergrad higher me on a full time basis.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

ha! i mean to say, is the MD considered a "terminal degree" on par with a PhD for undergrad. that is, would an undergrad higher me on a full time basis.

Like he said, be prepared for a paycut. Very few schools hire professors to actually, you know, profess. They hire them for their research output. If you're a basic science researcher, I'd say it's possible. But again, they aren't really interested in your desire to be a teacher.

Personally I'm hoping to put my evobio training and interest in history/philosophy of science to good use and pilot evolutionary medicine and scientific epistemology/philosophy courses for medical students/undergrads. Both are sorely needed as can be seen by the (lack of) quality of discourse and formulation of theory.

I'm not expecting to get much of an income benefit from that though. Indeed I wouldn't be surprised if I suffered a pay cut due to reduced clinical time.

 

[nancysinatra]

Like he said, be prepared for a paycut. Very few schools hire professors to actually, you know, profess. They hire them for their research output. If you're a basic science researcher, I'd say it's possible. But again, they aren't really interested in your desire to be a teacher.

Just a point of clarification, if that's ok. There are a lot of really excellent liberal arts colleges in this country where good teaching is, in fact, absolutely prioritized. Professors must of course do impressive research as well and have degrees from the finest univesities, but they must be exceptionally devoted to teaching first and foremost. I am surprised that more people are not aware that this model not only exists, but is thriving at the undergraduate level.

I am going to a retirement party for one of my undergrad profs in May and it's been ten years or more. People stay in touch when the education and relationships formed are that good. I might have to miss my med school graduation, but who cares--it's not like I'd know any of the official people there anyway!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Just a point of clarification, if that's ok. There are a lot of really excellent liberal arts colleges in this country where good teaching is, in fact, absolutely prioritized. Professors must of course do impressive research as well and have degrees from the finest univesities, but they must be exceptionally devoted to teaching first and foremost. I am surprised that more people are not aware that this model not only exists, but is thriving at the undergraduate level.

I am going to a retirement party for one of my undergrad profs in May and it's been ten years or more. People stay in touch when the education and relationships formed are that good. I might have to miss my med school graduation, but who cares--it's not like I'd know any of the official people there anyway!

This is all very true, but to go back to the posted question by masterofnone, those excellent liberal arts colleges (several of which are with a 30 minute drive of my house) are not likely to pay anyone "MD wages" to do that teaching. So the dedicated, selfless MD who chooses to teach for teaching's sake is doing so at a major opportunity cost relative to their potential clinical wages.

 

[BabyPsychDoc]

So the dedicated, selfless MD who chooses to teach for teaching's sake is doing so at a major opportunity cost relative to their potential clinical wages.

I just can't see anyone prepared to do that - not unless they have retired from medical practice and are bored out of their skulls at home... And it is not just finances - if you went into medicine because you love doctoring, why would you want to teach basic biology in an undergrad instead of - well, doing doctoring?

Maybe, if you have no family and no other commitments, and really do not know what to do with those evenings/weekends, but still...

 

[masterofmonkeys]

there are a whole lot of MDs out there who do nothing but basic science and maybe a smattering of translational research.

Not a whole lot of difference.

 

[nancysinatra]

This is all very true, but to go back to the posted question by masterofnone, those excellent liberal arts colleges (several of which are with a 30 minute drive of my house) are not likely to pay anyone "MD wages" to do that teaching. So the dedicated, selfless MD who chooses to teach for teaching's sake is doing so at a major opportunity cost relative to their potential clinical wages.

Your point is well taken. Plus, with the loan repayment situation people like me are in, it would not be possible even if we were that selfless. And not only that, but most liberal arts colleges would not really have a place for an MD on their faculty, except in rare situations.

I just wanted to point out that a different model does exist. In all my classes, everyone I knew seemed really happy.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is the actual "teaching" part of the equation. Many people believe they can step into a classroom and be an effective teacher, though this is rarely the case. Some of it may be content dependent, but often the hardest part of teaching is the translation of the information to the students. I'd suggest that if this is an area you want to pursue, that you find a mentor who can work with you on developing your skills, so when you step in front of a new class you have an idea of how to teach what you know.

 

[masterofnone]

IF I were to give up a "real" psychiatry job, my plan would be to work at Any State U (think small). I had the opportunity to teach some undergrad years ago and really enjoyed my time. Also, both my parents teach undergrad (at a similarly small non-publish-or-perish State Univ) so the lifestyle I had growing up is one I'd like to replicate for my family (home a lot).

My thought was teach intro to psych, anat, physio, whatever...and then moonlight at the state facility.

The real goal here is to be able to get 2 months off in the summer to spend with family.

Thanks for all the input so far...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

IF I were to give up a "real" psychiatry job, my plan would be to work at Any State U (think small). I had the opportunity to teach some undergrad years ago and really enjoyed my time. Also, both my parents teach undergrad (at a similarly small non-publish-or-perish State Univ) so the lifestyle I had growing up is one I'd like to replicate for my family (home a lot).

My thought was teach intro to psych, anat, physio, whatever...and then moonlight at the state facility.

The real goal here is to be able to get 2 months off in the summer to spend with family.

Thanks for all the input so far...

Not so sure you really want to go into medicine, then... 🙁

 

[Faebinder]

Not so sure you really want to go into medicine, then... 🙁

Don't worry, money will corrupt him soon. 🙂 The hardest thing in life is to go back in wealth status after tasting the higher levels.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Don't worry, money will corrupt him soon. 🙂 The hardest thing in life is to go back in wealth status after tasting the higher levels.

Completely true.

I left a corp career to go back to school, and I really miss the lifestyle. Even a $50k drop can sting, let alone more. I'm going to build wealth and then share it once I'm comfortable....not the other way around.

 

[notdeadyet]

My thought was teach intro to psych, anat, physio, whatever...and then moonlight at the state facility.

I think you might be underestimating the competitiveness of academic jobs and overestimating the value of the MD in academics.

I spent a few years as a teacher at the community college and university level. Even at the community college level, things like anatomy and whatnot were taught by anatomists. I have a hunch most community colleges and universities would prefer (and be wise to prefer) to have classes taught by folks with a Master's level education in anatomy rather than someone who went to med school and spent a semester studying it as a discipline.

The real goal here is to be able to get 2 months off in the summer to spend with family.

Ever consider locum tenens? You'd probably make a better living working 6 months locum tenens than 9 months teaching. Especially as an MD is not seen as appropriate credentials to teach many science classes.

 

[michaelrack]

I
I spent a few years as a teacher at the community college and university level. Even at the community college level, things like anatomy and whatnot were taught by anatomists. .

I know a doc who left residency and was without a medical license. He worked in a coffee shop for a while and eventually got a position teaching teaching anatomy at a community college. He has since gotten back into clinical medicine.

 

[notdeadyet]

I know a doc who left residency and was without a medical license. He worked in a coffee shop for a while and eventually got a position teaching teaching anatomy at a community college. He has since gotten back into clinical medicine.

Yeah, I suppose I should have been cognizant of the fact that community colleges vary a lot regionally. In California, they're pretty high quality, with a decent number of college bound students completing their BA's after two years at a community college. I was shocked when I heard that in some states, they're pretty dismal.

In California, the job prospects for an MD finding a full-time (much less tenure track) position teaching anatomy at the junior college level would be a challenge. Not sure about other locales; I've only taught at the community college level in California and Hawaii.

 

[masterofnone]

That's not too encouraging OPD...especially since i'm a resident. i love what i do and am 95% sure i'll go directly into practice...just keeping my options open.

As to the money corrupting- not too likely since I left a job making over $100k per annum to come to med school. sure, i'll probably make more after residency but If I make $180k a year, I'll be in my 50's before I break even (not counting interest and a huge lifestyle change during school).