Teaching without having done a residency

[PostCall]

how likely is it to be able to teach at a U.S. med school with an M.D. from a U.S. med school but not having done a residency? i know it's possible teach at a community college but i'm talking specifically about being a lecturer or assistant prof at a med school with only an M.D. i assume to get tenure as full prof you need to do research and publish tons, but what if you want to just lecture and teach clinical skills type of stuff to med students.

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[smq123]

how likely is it to be able to teach at a U.S. med school with an M.D. from a U.S. med school but not having done a residency? i know it's possible teach at a community college but i'm talking specifically about being a lecturer or assistant prof at a med school with only an M.D. i assume to get tenure as full prof you need to do research and publish tons, but what if you want to just lecture and teach clinical skills type of stuff to med students.

You would probably be asked to teach basic sciences (i.e. anatomy, biochem, etc). Since you have no clinical experience to speak of, you can't teach the more clinically oriented courses of MS2, and since you don't see enough patients to keep your clinical skills sharp, they probably wouldn't ask you to teach clinical skills either.

I had a couple of MDs, who either were semi-retired or hadn't finished a residency, teach anatomy and biochem.

 

[Otofan]

how likely is it to be able to teach at a U.S. med school with an M.D. from a U.S. med school but not having done a residency? i know it's possible teach at a community college but i'm talking specifically about being a lecturer or assistant prof at a med school with only an M.D. i assume to get tenure as full prof you need to do research and publish tons, but what if you want to just lecture and teach clinical skills type of stuff to med students.

You can never become an assistant professor without a well developed research background; this is an academic position that is only given to those who would pursue research (either basic or clinical), and there are actually very competitive. Some do get by getting the position and never pursue research, but they never move up to become a associate or tenured professor. Note that teaching is just part of an academic position.

Most medical schools are not really interested in hiring lecturers as they already have many faculty members who are experts in a given subject taught to med students. However, many colleges, especially community colleges, would hire lecturers.

 

[ResidentMD]

You can never become an assistant professor without a well developed research background; this is an academic position that is only given to those who would pursue research (either basic or clinical), and there are actually very competitive. Some do get by getting the position and never pursue research, but they never move up to become a associate or tenured professor. Note that teaching is just part of an academic position.

Most medical schools are not really interested in hiring lecturers as they already have many faculty members who are experts in a given subject taught to med students. However, many colleges, especially community colleges, would hire lecturers.

What about the entire domain of clinician-educators?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

What about the entire domain of clinician-educators?

Clinician educators see patients. WIthout a residency, that won't be an option.

 

[gutonc]

what if you want to just lecture and teach clinical skills type of stuff to med students.

You don't have any clinical skills, what could you possible teach them?

I mean, aside from how to avoid your resident by being "in the library studying" when you're supposed to be in the OR.

The answer to your question is, no. You might be able to get a job at a lower tier offshore school, but even the major Carib schools won't hire you with nothing more than an MD.

 

[SoCuteMD]

I sincerely doubt it would be possible to be hired to teach basic science. All of my profs were PhDs. We had one MD, but he had not only completed residency but also been in practice for 15 years prior to becoming an instructor. All of our clinical instructors had completed residency.

 

[smq123]

You don't have any clinical skills, what could you possible teach them?

I mean, aside from how to avoid your resident by being "in the library studying" when you're supposed to be in the OR.

 

[PostCall]

You don't have any clinical skills, what could you possible teach them?

maybe you didn't have any clinical skills after 4 years of med school but i'm fairly sure most others with an M.D. can teach med students how to take a history, how to do a physical exam, how to suture, draw blood, put in a foley, ng tube, etc. it's a shame how the response to questions about using your M.D. without a residency seems to always be chorus of "no you can't" and ridicule. it's like we're telling ourselves the M.D. we spent 4 years attaining (not to mention the 4 previous years to get an undergrad degree first) are worthless. except to use as a stepping stone to get an internship.

 

[smq123]

maybe you didn't have any clinical skills after 4 years of med school but i'm fairly sure most others with an M.D. can teach med students how to take a history, how to do a physical exam, how to suture, draw blood, put in a foley, ng tube, etc. it's a shame how the response to questions about using your M.D. without a residency seems to always be chorus of "no you can't" and ridicule. it's like we're telling ourselves the M.D. we spent 4 years attainining (not to mention the 4 previous years to get an undergrad degree first) are worthless. except to use as a stepping stone to get an internship.

Well, for starters, most of the technical skills that you describe (suturing, foleys, NG tubes) are probably better taught by a surgical or EM resident. They've done those things hundreds of times as a junior resident, compared to the measly half-dozen that the average med student graduates with. From the med school's point of view, why would they hire YOU to teach these things? A surgical resident can teach those things better, and will do so for free. They'd have to pay you....so what do you have to offer over a 4th year surg resident? Not much, honestly.

Second, don't get mad when people give you the honest answer that you just didn't want to hear.

 

[Arcan57]

it's like we're telling ourselves the m.d. We spent 4 years attaining (not to mention the 4 previous years to get an undergrad degree first) are worthless. Except to use as a stepping stone to get an internship.

qft.

 

[PostCall]

Second, don't get mad when people give you the honest answer that you just didn't want to hear.

then you and other shouldn't get "mad" either when a nurse/np/dnp downplays your M.D.
when we ourselves downplay our degree as worthless without a residency then it makes it that much easier for a nurse/np/dnp to do the same to increase their scope of practice. but when they do we backtrack and start shouting "go to medical school first!"/i spent 8 years in undergrad, med school, and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get my M.D.!"

 

[lord_jeebus]

I'd be pretty disappointed if I paid $50000/year for medical school and had clinical skills taught to me by some dude who had never been directly responsible for the care of a patient and who had done the procedure he was teaching about 2-3 times as a medical student.

 

[PostCall]

i don't know what you guys were doing on your rotations if you did those procedures only 2-3 times. by the end of my surgery and IM rotations i had lost track of how many histories, physicals, and procedures i'd done. i did so many that i was the go-to guy for blood draws, IV's, and ABG's if the intern couldn't get them. were you guys actually participating in your rotations or just shadowing/observing?

 

[gutonc]

maybe you didn't have any clinical skills after 4 years of med school but i'm fairly sure most others with an M.D. can teach med students how to take a history, how to do a physical exam, how to suture, draw blood, put in a foley, ng tube, etc. it's a shame how the response to questions about using your M.D. without a residency seems to always be chorus of "no you can't" and ridicule. it's like we're telling ourselves the M.D. we spent 4 years attaining (not to mention the 4 previous years to get an undergrad degree first) are worthless. except to use as a stepping stone to get an internship.

This is basically the same answer I gave my mom the summer I turned 9 when I told her I didn't want to go to 4th grade. I had already learned everything there was to know in 3rd grade, why couldn't I just quit school and get a job teaching 3rd grade.

 

[typhoonegator]

You're missing the point. Maybe you have done a bunch of procedures. But why would they hire you when they could hire someone with better credentials, more experience, and a better understanding of the field for the same price? It's not like medical education is so noncompetitive that they can't hire qualified professionals.

And by the way, your medical degree really is pretty worthless without completing your training. Graduating after 4 years is essentially arbitrary. You've built the foundation, but who wants the foundation without the house? Your training is not done. Finish it, and then you're education will be worth something. Dragging the NP debate into this thread is a non sequitur.

 

[PostCall]

This is basically the same answer I gave my mom the summer I turned 9 when I told her I didn't want to go to 4th grade. I had already learned everything there was to know in 3rd grade, why couldn't I just quit school and get a job teaching 3rd grade.

lol so having attained a M.D. is being associated to elementary level school education. the disparaging of the M.D. degree continues by our own...no wonder nurses/nps/dnps can do it so easily too when we have so little respect for it ourselves.

 

[rock_climber]

This is basically the same answer I gave my mom the summer I turned 9 when I told her I didn't want to go to 4th grade. I had already learned everything there was to know in 3rd grade, why couldn't I just quit school and get a job teaching 3rd grade.

👍

 

[rock_climber]

lol so having attained a M.D. is being associated to elementary level school education. the disparaging of the M.D. degree continues by our own...no wonder nurses/nps/dnps can do it so easily too when we have so little respect for it ourselves.

that's not what gutonc was saying at all, no disparaging of the MD title but simply a comparison that is very apt actually. everyone above is saying that despite the thousands of ABGs, blood draws, or surgeries you performed solo during your illustrious career as a med student you are NOT the most qualified person to teach these techniques to med students because you don't have the post-graduate experience AND med schools already have surgeons, EM, etc. on staff that can and are required to teach these things to the students. they would be spending more money to pay someone for a job they already have. are you just realizing all the stepping stones to get to be an attending NOW? grade school, junior high, high school, ACT/SAT, college, MCAT, pre-clinical years, Step 1, M3, Step 2, M4, intern, PGY years, etc. - you've had at least 20 years to notice that EVERYTHING in training is essentially a stepping stone to the next.

 

[marsupial]

I would pursue teaching the history of medicine or medical ethics at the collegiate level. There are no-residency MDs at top Ivy League schools who do this. You might start out by teaching freshman seminar type things and work you way up to large classes. Other classes would be "Exploring Careers in Medicine" or "Medicine and Technology" etc. You could write a class proposal and get in that way. Alternatively you could spend a year doing something cool abroad with MSF or another group, and come back and teach international health. Then as you continued to publish editorials and articles, you would make a niche and a name for yourself (and Associate Professor, the holy grail!)

 

[PostCall]

I would pursue teaching the history of medicine or medical ethics at the collegiate level. There are no-residency MDs at top Ivy League schools who do this. You might start out by teaching freshman seminar type things and work you way up to large classes. Other classes would be "Exploring Careers in Medicine" or "Medicine and Technology" etc. You could write a class proposal and get in that way. Alternatively you could spend a year doing something cool abroad with MSF or another group, and come back and teach international health. Then as you continued to publish editorials and articles, you would make a niche and a name for yourself (and Associate Professor, the holy grail!)

do you have a ballpark figure of how much a prof teaching undergrad like that would make? could u make as much as the low end of what a primary care doc makes? that would be sweet because i always thought lecturers at my undergrad had an awesome gig. show up to lecture some classes, hold office hours once or twice a week, teach some small group sessions, so laid back and chill.

 

[gutonc]

do you have a ballpark figure of how much a prof teaching undergrad like that would make? could u make as much as the low end of what a primary care doc makes? that would be sweet because i always thought lecturers at my undergrad had an awesome gig. show up to lecture some classes, hold office hours once or twice a week, teach some small group sessions, so laid back and chill.

It would probably be less than half of what a mediocre PCP gig would pay. And that's only if you could get a tenure track position. Adjunct faculty get paid a (really bad) hourly rate.

 

[Maybeknot]

do you have a ballpark figure of how much a prof teaching undergrad like that would make? could u make as much as the low end of what a primary care doc makes? that would be sweet because i always thought lecturers at my undergrad had an awesome gig. show up to lecture some classes, hold office hours once or twice a week, teach some small group sessions, so laid back and chill.

If your lecturers are hired just as instructors and not researchers, they're probably not making much. University professors need to get grants to make real $$. Going over some powerpoint slides in front of 300 people isn't that hard to do, I'd imagine, and there's a steady supply of qualified people willing to do it.

As to your original premise-- it's possible you can find a job teaching an intro clinical medicine course. Most likely your medical school can get a resident or an attending to do it for essentially free, so you'd need to have a lot going for you to ignore your lack of experience (compared to someone who has done residency) and your need to have a real salary.

 

[doctorFred]

do you have a ballpark figure of how much a prof teaching undergrad like that would make? could u make as much as the low end of what a primary care doc makes? that would be sweet because i always thought lecturers at my undergrad had an awesome gig. show up to lecture some classes, hold office hours once or twice a week, teach some small group sessions, so laid back and chill.

40k? maybe?

and since 99%(?) of the people who get their MD from a US allopathic institution end up completing a residency, it kind of raises the question - what happened to this guy and why are we hiring him?

agree with above - bringing the dnp/rn discussion into play is an emotional non sequitur for someone who didn't get the answer they wanted to hear.

 

[PostCall]

i was offered $35/hr to teach SAT and MCAT by a test prep company when all I had was a bachelor's degree. are you saying a lecturer with a doctorate degree at a decent university would make less than that?

 

[Maybeknot]

i was offered $35/hr to teach SAT and MCAT by a test prep company when all I had was a bachelor's degree. are you saying a lecturer with a doctorate degree at a decent university would make less than that?

Yes. Pay scales differently when you compare full-time with benefits to a part-time job for a few hours a week.

 

[Winged Scapula]

i was offered $35/hr to teach SAT and MCAT by a test prep company when all I had was a bachelor's degree. are you saying a lecturer with a doctorate degree at a decent university would make less than that?

Yes.

Academia, even with a PhD, is not well paying. Even full time professors at big name schools are not reaching 6 figures.

 

[Apollyon]

Yes.

Academia, even with a PhD, is not well paying. Even full time professors at big name schools are not reaching 6 figures.

Are you talking across the board? Because, if so, I know one history prof that breaks $100K/year. 33 years old, tenured. (She's a rock star.)

 

[PostCall]

Are you talking across the board? Because, if so, I know one history prof that breaks $100K/year. 33 years old, tenured. (She's a rock star.)

tenured profs have it good. high salary, awesome job security, and sweet working environment. but u have to research/publish tons and play the political game to be made tenure from what i hear. but what i'm talking about is non-tenure stuff. i have no interest in research/publishing or playing politics. i would like to lecture, teach some small class sessions on the side, and that kind of chill stuff. sucks that lecturers/non-tenure profs make less than a resident apparently.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Are you talking across the board? Because, if so, I know one history prof that breaks $100K/year. 33 years old, tenured. (She's a rock star.)

Of course not.

We all can come up with exceptions to the rule that most academic professors do not make 6 figures. A tenured professor, especially at the age of 33 (which is unsual in and of itself), is a different beast.

I am not sure that PostCall is a "rock star" (although that is said without any IRL knowledge of him/her). He may likely only get "lecturer" status and not full time faculty give the lack of residency and other research endeavors.

 

[captaincrunch]

To be honest, I think becoming in instructor without any residency would be a long-shot for two reasons. First, most pre-clinical courses are taught be PhDs with extensive research and teaching experience, even at community colleges. The training of a PhD and MDs is quite different and sitting though and passing a medical school anatomy course dose not qualify you to start training a future generation of doctors. As far as teaching histories and physicals is concerned, well, if you can't see the problem with this nobody on this forum is likely to be able to help you.

Second, a failure to complete residency often (but not always) indicates some form of deficiency in medical school or internship. While an MD could theoretically teach a college class with enough preparation, I wouldn't want the medical student who couldn't secure a residency to be the one to try it. I'm a little shocked at the tone of some of these threads that seem to insist that any MD should just be able to hang a single and start practicing. I honestly fear for patients if this happens. Citing NPs, PAs, etc falls a little short. Most physicians extenders I know do not want to practice independently and know when to ask for help.

To the OP, I'm not sure if your residency/training is under any threat, but frankly a lot of these forums strike me as fairly defensive. A resident or student gets into trouble for one reason or another and finds that they might not be able to complete residency. Rather than trying to figure out how to fix the problem at hand, there is a lot of denial of any problem. Instead, there is a search for a "Hail Mary" in order to parlay an MD into something lucrative that doesn't require them to fix any deficiency.

 

[FutureDoc4]

Not sure if this will be helpful. But I hoped, once I was an attending, to be academically affiliated and maybe teach at the college connected to whatever university I'm at.

Particularly physiology (I was a physio TA through all of undergrad). I figure that with a background in upper division physiology in undergrad, pathology, and pathophys, I would be qualified to teach a college level course later on.

I am really passionate about teaching, two questions

1) OP have you thought about trying to find the local college to teach physio? (I'm sure the premeds would love the idea of having an MD teach the course rather than a PhD)


2) Does anyone know how possible this is?

 

[Nerve Gas]

tenured profs have it good. high salary, awesome job security, and sweet working environment. but u have to research/publish tons and play the political game to be made tenure from what i hear. but what i'm talking about is non-tenure stuff. i have no interest in research/publishing or playing politics. i would like to lecture, teach some small class sessions on the side, and that kind of chill stuff. sucks that lecturers/non-tenure profs make less than a resident apparently.

here are some generalizations...

i think generally profs at small colleges make a resident's salary but have great benefits and much more than 3-4 weeks vacation. getting a teaching job at a reputable college is relatively competitive, good applicants are PhDs with teaching experience, very strong teaching skills and some decent research. for such jobs, previous teaching experience is (almost) a requirement, research is not such a big deal.

getting a faculty position at a bigger university is a different story. they usually do not hire teaching-only faculty. they want someone that will get funded and be dedicated to research, while doing some teaching on the side. since keeping such jobs depends on getting NIH dollars, many faculty see teaching as a distraction and do it only if required. their salary at assist prof level generally starts at 65-85k and, depending on merits and achievements (read: $milking NIH tits$), can get much much higher, but usually not over 200k.

back to your question - you need to start building your teaching resume asap! any teaching experience that you can get will be good. time permitting, as a senior med student one could help teaching any basic science course (labs, small groups, etc). talk to course directors.

p.s. teaching physiology (M1 labs) has been delightful 😍

 

[Arcan57]

tenured profs have it good. high salary, awesome job security, and sweet working environment. but u have to research/publish tons and play the political game to be made tenure from what i hear. but what i'm talking about is non-tenure stuff. i have no interest in research/publishing or playing politics. i would like to lecture, teach some small class sessions on the side, and that kind of chill stuff. sucks that lecturers/non-tenure profs make less than a resident apparently.

So rephrasing your question, is there a job that you can perform as a non-residency trained MD that will routinely make as much money as a board-certified, residency trained MD? Preferably with better hours, more vacation, and not requiring interpersonal skills.

 

[Nerve Gas]

So rephrasing your question, is there a job that you can perform as a non-residency trained MD that will routinely make as much money as a board-certified, residency trained MD? Preferably with better hours, more vacation, and not requiring interpersonal skills.

i'm also curious to hear more about that. i'd like to be wrong, but to my knowledge, in the academic arena - absolutely not. i'm not sure about industry (maybe as a big project manager, or in consulting - still unlikely to be routinely done).

 

[BlondeDocteur]

I would pursue teaching the history of medicine or medical ethics at the collegiate level. There are no-residency MDs at top Ivy League schools who do this. You might start out by teaching freshman seminar type things and work you way up to large classes. Other classes would be "Exploring Careers in Medicine" or "Medicine and Technology" etc. You could write a class proposal and get in that way. Alternatively you could spend a year doing something cool abroad with MSF or another group, and come back and teach international health. Then as you continued to publish editorials and articles, you would make a niche and a name for yourself (and Associate Professor, the holy grail!)

This has to be one of the most amusing posts I have ever seen on this board. I read it several times to see if it was meant in jest. Having decided it's not, I managed to write the following:

In order to teach a subject at any level, one has to actually know something about that subject. Did you even have lectures in your curriculum about medical history and ethics? Have you even studied those subjects rigorously?

And to teach at the collegiate level-- even a crappy college-- the bar is raised much higher. You're supposed to know everything there is to know about that subject, and contribute to the body of original knowledge in that field. Are you by chance a trained historian, capable of doing archival work, fluent in the relevant languages, confident that you can place medical practice in the appropriate historical and intellectual context? Have you studied philosophy and ethics, are you confident speaking that language, can you analyze bioethical questions according to that framework, and-- yet again-- can you contribute to the body of scholarly knowledge on that subject?

"Careers in Medicine" taught by someone who never pursued one? Really?

And lastly, the idea of sending a no-residency MD to function as a solo practitioner in the incredibly difficult conditions faced by an average MSF volunteer is both laughable and frightening. (MSF and its sister NGOs do not accept residents as volunteers, let alone those without any training).

The bottom line: medical school is not graduate school. Nowhere in medical school are we trained to think independently, to come up with novel theories or positions on certain questions, or to live the "life of the mind." It is professional school, for better and for worse. Everyone marches in lockstep. Everyone is supposed to think, know and act the same. You are being trained to perform a specific job-- doctoring-- and the knowledge without the praxis is accordingly worthless. You are being trained to master a specific body of knowledge which is "set in stone" and not subject to debate.

The flip side is that everyone who marches on through, acquires that hard-won body of knowledge, procedural skills and clinical decision-making ability is guaranteed a great job and the ability to practice. This again is in stark contrast to academia, where the job market is utterly ruthless and the politics would make the average MD blanch with horror. Having earned graduate degrees in the history of medicine, medical ethics and international health I am personally quite glad to be in clinical medicine.

 

[BGDino]

This has to be one of the most amusing posts I have ever seen on this board. I read it several times to see if it was meant in jest. Having decided it's not, I managed to write the following:

In order to teach a subject at any level, one has to actually know something about that subject. Did you even have lectures in your curriculum about medical history and ethics? Have you even studied those subjects rigorously?

And to teach at the collegiate level-- even a crappy college-- the bar is raised much higher. You're supposed to know everything there is to know about that subject, and contribute to the body of original knowledge in that field. Are you by chance a trained historian, capable of doing archival work, fluent in the relevant languages, confident that you can place medical practice in the appropriate historical and intellectual context? Have you studied philosophy and ethics, are you confident speaking that language, can you analyze bioethical questions according to that framework, and-- yet again-- can you contribute to the body of scholarly knowledge on that subject?

"Careers in Medicine" taught by someone who never pursued one? Really?

And lastly, the idea of sending a no-residency MD to function as a solo practitioner in the incredibly difficult conditions faced by an average MSF volunteer is both laughable and frightening. (MSF and its sister NGOs do not accept residents as volunteers, let alone those without any training).

The bottom line: medical school is not graduate school. Nowhere in medical school are we trained to think independently, to come up with novel theories or positions on certain questions, or to live the "life of the mind." It is professional school, for better and for worse. Everyone marches in lockstep. Everyone is supposed to think, know and act the same. You are being trained to perform a specific job-- doctoring-- and the knowledge without the praxis is accordingly worthless. You are being trained to master a specific body of knowledge which is "set in stone" and not subject to debate.

The flip side is that everyone who marches on through, acquires that hard-won body of knowledge, procedural skills and clinical decision-making ability is guaranteed a great job and the ability to practice. This again is in stark contrast to academia, where the job market is utterly ruthless and the politics would make the average MD blanch with horror. Having earned graduate degrees in the history of medicine, medical ethics and international health I am personally quite glad to be in clinical medicine.

+1

 

[captaincrunch]

I would pursue teaching the history of medicine or medical ethics at the collegiate level. There are no-residency MDs at top Ivy League schools who do this. You might start out by teaching freshman seminar type things and work you way up to large classes. Other classes would be "Exploring Careers in Medicine" or "Medicine and Technology" etc. You could write a class proposal and get in that way. Alternatively you could spend a year doing something cool abroad with MSF or another group, and come back and teach international health. Then as you continued to publish editorials and articles, you would make a niche and a name for yourself (and Associate Professor, the holy grail!)

Are you aware of specific examples of MDs (without a PhD) who teach ethics or anything else at ivy league universities without a residency? I'm skeptical. As for MSF, they really only take resident trained doctors as volunteers. I mean, even with residency it often takes a while for the western docs to acclimate to medicine in the developing world. I think it's a stretch to think you can become the next Dr. Farmer without any training.

I've known people to into finance from medicine, but usually after completing training and usually with very fancy degrees.

 

[Apollyon]

Of course not.

We all can come up with exceptions to the rule that most academic professors do not make 6 figures. A tenured professor, especially at the age of 33 (which is unsual in and of itself), is a different beast.

I am not sure that PostCall is a "rock star" (although that is said without any IRL knowledge of him/her). He may likely only get "lecturer" status and not full time faculty give the lack of residency and other research endeavors.

8 years later, she has washed out of academics, having drunk everything alcoholic in the Mountain time zone. Every bridge - burnt. Every connection - alienated. Couldn't even keep the job at the grocery store that she worked at when she was a teenager. Divorced, and no options.

 

[Crayola227]

solid necrobump