Terminal Surgeries

[doggylover]

Greetings!

I did see some previous threads discussing terminal surgeries, but did not see any recent ones and was just wondering how different schools who use terminal surgeries deal with their surgery dogs. I have more or less accepted that the animals that we receive to the school (previously in line for euthanasia at nearby shelters) are purposed for our learning and ultimately will be euthanized. In past years, some dogs have "run off" or conveniently "gone missing" before terminal surgery day, which I understand. We care for the dogs, they go through one surgery day (usually neutering and exploratory), and we recover them for the next week's terminal surgery- so an emotional bond is really hard to ignore.

I guess I am just curious to hear how other students deal with terminal surgeries at their school, and if they feel like there is a better way to get experience (without working on a cadaver, or having your first sx experience on a client's animal).

Any feeling and thoughts welcome.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[pp9]

Greetings!

I did see some previous threads discussing terminal surgeries, but did not see any recent ones and was just wondering how different schools who use terminal surgeries deal with their surgery dogs. I have more or less accepted that the animals that we receive to the school (previously in line for euthanasia at nearby shelters) are purposed for our learning and ultimately will be euthanized. In past years, some dogs have "run off" or conveniently "gone missing" before terminal surgery day, which I understand. We care for the dogs, they go through one surgery day (usually neutering and exploratory), and we recover them for the next week's terminal surgery- so an emotional bond is really hard to ignore.

I guess I am just curious to hear how other students deal with terminal surgeries at their school, and if they feel like there is a better way to get experience (without working on a cadaver, or having your first sx experience on a client's animal).

Any feeling and thoughts welcome.

We do spays/neuters on shelter dogs in our surgery course (not terminal), and they are sent back to the shelter to be adopted out. However, we miss out on the chance to do major/crazy/complicated surgeries prior to just watching/assisting during fourth year, unless you're lucky and are given the lead on the surgery (I'm told its pretty unlikely here). Terminal surgeries allow for a realistic experience (vs. a cadaver).

How is your school handling the fact that students have been stealing animals? My school doesn't deal with terminal surgeries, so maybe this is normal, but it's a little odd that they have you neuter, do an elective explore, recover, keep for a week, then do another surgery that they won't wake up from. It just strikes me as strange that they put the animal through major abdominal surgery, keep it alive for a week (during which it isn't experiencing the best quality of life) and then do the terminal procedure. Idk. All I know is that our junior surgery dogs aren't put through terminal procedures, we only have them for about 4 days, and their QOL is a huge concern. They are in runs in a basement 24hr/day and cannot be taken outside while they are in our care. I can't really understand keeping a dog alive after a painful abdominal surgery just to get one more surgery out of it and then killing it. Why not do your three procedures all in one day?

 

[doggylover]

I almost feel like a traitor posting about this on a forum, because I know terminal surgeries are sort of a hush hush topic and we are "encouraged" to keep all the info on the DL.

I am not sure why we don't just do all the surgeries in one day. The whole process is supposed to be a learning experience, of course, for us students and part of the is recovering the dog, writing up sx/follow-up reports, SOAPing them every day, etc. I am also unsure of how some of the IUCUC standards/laws work. I know a protocol has to be submitted for them to approve the number of procedures you do on the animal, but not sure on the specifics (like if there is a limit on number of procedures you can do a day/in one surgery period, etc.). So I am unsure. QOL is also something I feel that the students are very concerned with (again, because we are the ones caring for the animals) given our limited resources for the dogs. So far, I've heard of many schools doing the spay/neuter sx and what you described for surgical experience. So I am thankful for the experience, just surprised how frowned upon it is.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You think it's OK that veterinary students are stealing animals? Students who will graduate and have to live up to professional ethics? Wow.

it's a little odd that they have you neuter, do an elective explore, recover, keep for a week, then do another surgery that they won't wake up from. It just strikes me as strange that they put the animal through major abdominal surgery, keep it alive for a week (during which it isn't experiencing the best quality of life) and then do the terminal procedure. Idk. All I know is that our junior surgery dogs aren't put through terminal procedures, we only have them for about 4 days, and their QOL is a huge concern. They are in runs in a basement 24hr/day and cannot be taken outside while they are in our care. I can't really understand keeping a dog alive after a painful abdominal surgery just to get one more surgery out of it and then killing it. Why not do your three procedures all in one day?

I actually think that's a very important part of why using live animals is great for learning. FWIW, when I was a student, that is exactly how we worked with our surgery dogs and sheep, and it taught us a very important part of doing surgery: post op care. We were responsible for monitoring, care, feeding, and medicating the animals for the intervening week between the first and the second (last surgery), and I think that was very worthwhile. Seeing how the surgeries heal and dealing with post op care (including everything from exercise restriction to pain management) helped us all, I believe. The emotional attachment isn't necessarily a bad thing, either, and many student groups put up photos of their sacrificed animals and made donations in their name, in recognition of what they gave them. Students need to learn more about surgery than just what to tie off and where to cut.

 

[pp9]

You think it's OK that veterinary students are stealing animals? Students who will graduate and have to live up to professional ethics? Wow.




I actually think that's a very important part of why using live animals is great for learning. FWIW, when I was a student, that is exactly how we worked with our surgery dogs and sheep, and it taught us a very important part of doing surgery: post op care. We were responsible for monitoring, care, feeding, and medicating the animals for the intervening week between the first and the second (last surgery), and I think that was very worthwhile. Seeing how the surgeries heal and dealing with post op care (including everything from exercise restriction to pain management) helped us all, I believe. The emotional attachment isn't necessarily a bad thing, either, and many student groups put up photos of their sacrificed animals and made donations in their name, in recognition of what they gave them. Students need to learn more about surgery than just what to tie off and where to cut.

I totally get the value of practicing recovering/post-op, I'm just a little surprised to hear that it actually gets IACUC approval. Maybe my school tends to be more strict with this kind of stuff? We can't even palpate a horse (and by palpate I mean muscles/vessels/whatever, not even rectal) beyond a certain length of time. I just don't quite feel good about justifying keeping an animal in discomfort in a cage just so you can get one more procedure out of it before it's euthanized. No analgesia is 100% besides maybe nerve blocks or something (according to our anesthesia people, anyway). If you want to practice recovering animals, the school could partner with the closest shelter and do their spays/neuters for adoptable animals.

I am still waiting on an answer about the animal stealing...lol. If we did that at my school, the program would get shut down by our administration. I think that's like a federal thing too, tbh. USDA would see that animals have been going missing and fine you/shut you down in the blink of an eye probably.

 

[doggylover]

Sorry, didn't see the actual question.

Our school basically said you can't do anymore surgeries if your dog goes missing. I didn't hear of any problems in the past few years with them going missing, but I would assume the same thing about questions (gov wondering where in the world these dogs ended up). There's a lot of talk, and not a lot of action most of the time.

 

[Lupin21]

You think it's OK that veterinary students are stealing animals? Students who will graduate and have to live up to professional ethics? Wow.




I actually think that's a very important part of why using live animals is great for learning. FWIW, when I was a student, that is exactly how we worked with our surgery dogs and sheep, and it taught us a very important part of doing surgery: post op care. We were responsible for monitoring, care, feeding, and medicating the animals for the intervening week between the first and the second (last surgery), and I think that was very worthwhile. Seeing how the surgeries heal and dealing with post op care (including everything from exercise restriction to pain management) helped us all, I believe. The emotional attachment isn't necessarily a bad thing, either, and many student groups put up photos of their sacrificed animals and made donations in their name, in recognition of what they gave them. Students need to learn more about surgery than just what to tie off and where to cut.

I am a bit confused about this. Sx rotation is all about caring for animals pre and post op. They don't have to be terminal sx dogs for students, the cases that have come in for sx are assigned to students to oversee this in day to day operations.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I am a bit confused about this. Sx rotation is all about caring for animals pre and post op. They don't have to be terminal sx dogs for students, the cases that have come in for sx are assigned to students to oversee this in day to day operations.

Yes, they don't have to be terminal surgeries. What's confusing about what I said?

 

[Lupin21]

Yes, they don't have to be terminal surgeries. What's confusing about what I said?

You made it seem like students didn't learn this without it, so I was clarifying.

 

[pp9]

Sorry, didn't see the actual question.

Our school basically said you can't do anymore surgeries if your dog goes missing. I didn't hear of any problems in the past few years with them going missing, but I would assume the same thing about questions (gov wondering where in the world these dogs ended up). There's a lot of talk, and not a lot of action most of the time.

Pretty sure this one sentence describes vet school in a nutshell

But yeah, I don't see how waking up an animal from a painful surgery, keeping it a week, then doing the actual terminal surgery can be justified when there are so many alternatives. I know you don't have the answer, but it's the waking up and keeping for a week just to anesthetize and euthanize that isn't sitting well with me (not the idea of terminal surgeries). Bring shelter dogs/cats in to be neutered. Make it mandatory for students to get x amount of spays/neuters at the local shelter. And, like Lupin said, surgery on clinics has students recovering the animals on a daily basis. Still doesn't always get you that complicated surgical experience, but you can get that without making the animal wait in a cage to die.

I don't want to flat out say that your school is unethical because I can't see the situation for myself first hand. There are just alternatives I can think of, that's all.

 

[Mad Jack]

Greetings!

I did see some previous threads discussing terminal surgeries, but did not see any recent ones and was just wondering how different schools who use terminal surgeries deal with their surgery dogs. I have more or less accepted that the animals that we receive to the school (previously in line for euthanasia at nearby shelters) are purposed for our learning and ultimately will be euthanized. In past years, some dogs have "run off" or conveniently "gone missing" before terminal surgery day, which I understand. We care for the dogs, they go through one surgery day (usually neutering and exploratory), and we recover them for the next week's terminal surgery- so an emotional bond is really hard to ignore.

I guess I am just curious to hear how other students deal with terminal surgeries at their school, and if they feel like there is a better way to get experience (without working on a cadaver, or having your first sx experience on a client's animal).

Any feeling and thoughts welcome.

I couldn't deal with that.

 

[doggylover]

Pretty sure this one sentence describes vet school in a nutshell

But yeah, I don't see how waking up an animal from a painful surgery, keeping it a week, then doing the actual terminal surgery can be justified when there are so many alternatives. I know you don't have the answer, but it's the waking up and keeping for a week just to anesthetize and euthanize that isn't sitting well with me (not the idea of terminal surgeries). Bring shelter dogs/cats in to be neutered. Make it mandatory for students to get x amount of spays/neuters at the local shelter. And, like Lupin said, surgery on clinics has students recovering the animals on a daily basis. Still doesn't always get you that complicated surgical experience, but you can get that without making the animal wait in a cage to die.

I don't want to flat out say that your school is unethical because I can't see the situation for myself first hand. There are just alternatives I can think of, that's all.

I guess that's why I wanted to see how other schools who utilized terminal surgeries worked. And I don't know if there are good alternatives if you're trying to give students experience doing surgeries other than spays/neuters. Thanks for the input though.

 

[DVMDream]

We didn't wake up the terminal surgeries. Did the surgery then euthanized while still under anesthesia. We got post op experience from the spays and neuters and final year clinics.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You made it seem like students didn't learn this without it, so I was clarifying.

No one would learn post op care from doing terminal surgeries (obviously, because terminal surgeries are never recovered - they're euthanized on the table). And they wouldn't learn post op care if they were using cadavers or models (like syndaver), which some promote as a replacement for terminal surgeries. But you won't learn about more complicated procedures from doing just spays, neuters, and lump removals.

The issue of learning post-op healing and recovery is different than the issue of doing terminal surgeries. Now I'm confused.

 

[JaynaAli]

I went to open a school without terminal surgeries. We had more than average required spays and neuters (it seems) on shelter pets, slightly more dogs than cats. There was a rotation I didn't take that allowed more S/N and also did a few amputations, mass removals, etc if they were indicated on the shelter animals. We did cadaver surgeries for other procedures like cystotomy, gastrotomy/pexy, R&A, splenectomy. While I do think there is a good bit of difference between a cadaver and cutting into live bowel, I do feel like it was beneficial to do the cadaver lab. While it may have been nice to be able to cut into bowel with a blood supply and get more anesthesia experience on a live dog, I didn't feel like my education was lacking without more live surgeries. The first R&A I did was on an externship and yes, while it was technically on an owned animal, I had way more direct supervision during that procedure than I would have during a terminal lab full of students. Same for the splenectomy and gastropexies I did during my internship.

Personally I don't think waking an animal up after a surgery just to do a second procedure days later is cool. I have less of a problem with a one-and-done terminal surgery, but again, I feel like I was prepared pretty well even without them at all.

I actually have a lot more issue with our lack of good dental training than surgeries, tbh.

 

[Lupin21]

No one would learn post op care from doing terminal surgeries (obviously, because terminal surgeries are never recovered - they're euthanized on the table). And they wouldn't learn post op care if they were using cadavers or models (like syndaver), which some promote as a replacement for terminal surgeries. But you won't learn about more complicated procedures from doing just spays, neuters, and lump removals.

The issue of learning post-op healing and recovery is different than the issue of doing terminal surgeries. Now I'm confused.

Read your original statement. You went straight into the importance of post op care when the subject was that they recovered the animals initially and were responsible for their care until the terminal surgery. You can see where it led me to the reply I had. You were then able to clarify that it was in fact, a separate thought that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You were then able to clarify that it was in fact, a separate thought that had nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Well, it had everything to do with the original post and pinkpuppy's response, but not specifically to terminal surgeries.

 

[Shepherd Lover]

As far as I understand only two or three vet schools still perform terminal surgeries. Purdue recently stopped and now we perform spays and neuters on live animals and we have cadaver labs for other procedures.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[deleted103644]

Whoa, I didn’t realize vet school was so dark.

It makes sense, but I don’t think I could stomach doing something like that...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Whoa, I didn’t realize vet school was so dark.

It makes sense, but I don’t think I could stomach doing something like that...

Medical schools used live pigs (that were then euthanized) for surgery training until about 2016. Dogs were used in terminal surgeries in med schools until about 2005-2006 as well, along with a variety of other animals to teach drug responses, etc. So count yourself lucky time-wise, I suppose.

 

[Mad Jack]

Medical schools used live pigs (that were then euthanized) for surgery training until about 2016. Dogs were used in terminal surgeries in med schools until about 2005-2006 as well, along with a variety of other animals to teach drug responses, etc. So count yourself lucky time-wise, I suppose.

I literally couldn't have attended, I'm just not that edgy.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As far as I understand only two or three vet schools still perform terminal surgeries. Purdue recently stopped and now we perform spays and neuters on live animals and we have cadaver labs for other procedures.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

The last list I saw was

Cornell
UC Davis (?)
UGA
LSU
Miss. SU
Tuskegee
Ohio SU
Auburn (?)

Current students are welcome to chime in as this may well be out of date.

These are all elective surgery labs, though. I don't think thee is any school that requires terminal surgery in a core class?

 

[deleted103644]

Medical schools used live pigs (that were then euthanized) for surgery training until about 2016. Dogs were used in terminal surgeries in med schools until about 2005-2006 as well, along with a variety of other animals to teach drug responses, etc. So count yourself lucky time-wise, I suppose.

I think I probably could have dealt with a pig, even though I know they’re intelligent. (I’m responsible for enough of their deaths anyway - mmmm bacon.)

And I’ve killed plenty of rats and mice for science.

But I’ve had both dogs and cats as pets, and I just don’t think I could do it.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think I probably could have dealt with a pig, even though I know they’re intelligent. (I’m responsible for enough of their deaths anyway - mmmm bacon.)

And I’ve killed plenty of rats and mice for science.

But I’ve had both dogs and cats as pets, and I just don’t think I could do it.

Oh no, I'm very much with you. I'm generally fine with mice because I've worked extensively with them in research. Rats, cats, and dogs I've had as pets, so the idea of it is much harder.

 

[DVMDream]

I mean, I'm not saying it was easy, because it wasn't but these were dogs slated to be euthanized anyway. So yeah, it sucked, but I'm greatful for what we were able to learn. Yes, you could do the surgeries on a cadaver but it just isn't the same as live tissue. I can't tell you how many tooth extractions I've done on cadavers and thought "damn this isn't so bad" because it eliminates the fact that you can't see worth **** because of all the blood that's present in a living animal.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I mean, I'm not saying it was easy, because it wasn't but these were dogs slated to be euthanized anyway. So yeah, it sucked, but I'm greatful for what we were able to learn. Yes, you could do the surgeries on a cadaver but it just isn't the same as live tissue. I can't tell you how many tooth extractions I've done on cadavers and thought "damn this isn't so bad" because it eliminates the fact that you can't see worth **** because of all the blood that's present in a living animal.

Pretty much, yeah. We weren't saving any lives if the surgeries didn't happen - they were all going to be euthanized anyway.

 

[LetItSnow]

The last list I saw was

Cornell
UC Davis (?)
UGA
LSU
Miss. SU
Tuskegee
Ohio SU
Auburn (?)

Current students are welcome to chime in as this may well be out of date.

These are all elective surgery labs, though. I don't think thee is any school that requires terminal surgery in a core class?

I thought when I was at UMN there was still an elective rabbit terminal surgery lab, but..... I am nowhere near 100% certain.

There was no terminal surgery required. That I am sure of.

 

[LetItSnow]

I mean, I'm not saying it was easy, because it wasn't but these were dogs slated to be euthanized anyway. So yeah, it sucked, but I'm greatful for what we were able to learn. Yes, you could do the surgeries on a cadaver but it just isn't the same as live tissue. I can't tell you how many tooth extractions I've done on cadavers and thought "damn this isn't so bad" because it eliminates the fact that you can't see worth **** because of all the blood that's present in a living animal.

That's where I was at. We didn't do any, but I would have gladly because the animals they sourced were unplaceable and slated for euthanasia. So as far as I was concerned, keep them comfortable, don't recover them from surgery, and they don't suffer unduly. A little bit of distress from the confinement, maybe the pre-meds, but given the 'value' in the procedure, I thought that would be reasonable.

I actually wish we HAD done them. I feel like it's valuable. We did all our abdominal stuff (gastrotomy, enterotomy, RNA, cystotomy, pexy, etc.) on a dead pig (not even a dead dog/cat), and now that I'm out in practice I wish we had practiced on live animals.

Ah well. I understand the move away from it, too.

 

[DVMDream]

That's where I was at. We didn't do any, but I would have gladly because the animals they sourced were unplaceable and slated for euthanasia. So as far as I was concerned, keep them comfortable, don't recover them from surgery, and they don't suffer unduly. A little bit of distress from the confinement, maybe the pre-meds, but given the 'value' in the procedure, I thought that would be reasonable.

I actually wish we HAD done them. I feel like it's valuable. We did all our abdominal stuff (gastrotomy, enterotomy, RNA, cystotomy, pexy, etc.) on a dead pig (not even a dead dog/cat), and now that I'm out in practice I wish we had practiced on live animals.

Ah well. I understand the move away from it, too.

I remember my splenectomy during the surgery lab, kept bleeding like crazy, I realized my error... wasn't making my ligature tight enough. I learned that day that you really have to crank down on some of those vessels (but keep that finesse between too much and tearing through and too little and having a bleeder), was a good day for learning. Definitely don't think I benefited from that lab as much as others probably did since I have yet to do a splenectomy, any intestinal surgery or a gastropexy since vet school, but for those on ER, probably really helps them to have it first in a lab like that in school than on a client owned patient. Not to say that you slack during the surgery lab or anything, but there is something to be said for the difference between your patients in vet school and your patients once you are a vet... that responsibility, it smacks you hard when you get out.

 

[LetItSnow]

I remember my splenectomy during the surgery lab, kept bleeding like crazy, I realized my error... wasn't making my ligature tight enough. I learned that day that you really have to crank down on some of those vessels (but keep that finesse between too much and tearing through and too little and having a bleeder), was a good day for learning. Definitely don't think I benefited from that lab as much as others probably did since I have yet to do a splenectomy, any intestinal surgery or a gastropexy since vet school, but for those on ER, probably really helps them to have it first in a lab like that in school than on a client owned patient. Not to say that you slack during the surgery lab or anything, but there is something to be said for the difference between your patients in vet school and your patients once you are a vet... that responsibility, it smacks you hard when you get out.

Yup, I agree with you.

I guess the flip argument is: I've done all those surgeries multiple times just fine, so you could argue "Hey, you didn't need the lab after all!"

But I feel like I would have sweated less the first few times and been faster and had more confidence.

 

[DVMDream]

Yup, I agree with you.

I guess the flip argument is: I've done all those surgeries multiple times just fine, so you could argue "Hey, you didn't need the lab after all!"

But I feel like I would have sweated less the first few times and been faster and had more confidence.

Yeah, truth. Guess no one will every really know since you either get the lab or you don't so can't really know how you'd feel at each surgery with the opposite experience. I just know that I am to punt all surgeries to you because they make me crap my pants. 😉

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I remember my splenectomy during the surgery lab, kept bleeding like crazy, I realized my error... wasn't making my ligature tight enough. I learned that day that you really have to crank down on some of those vessels (but keep that finesse between too much and tearing through and too little and having a bleeder), was a good day for learning. Definitely don't think I benefited from that lab as much as others probably did since I have yet to do a splenectomy, any intestinal surgery or a gastropexy since vet school, but for those on ER, probably really helps them to have it first in a lab like that in school than on a client owned patient. Not to say that you slack during the surgery lab or anything, but there is something to be said for the difference between your patients in vet school and your patients once you are a vet... that responsibility, it smacks you hard when you get out.

Well, you may do them yet, and, besides, tight ligatures are still important even in spays and neuters. Lordy, even in some mass removals. And dewclaw removals. And.....

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I thought when I was at UMN there was still an elective rabbit terminal surgery lab, but..... I am nowhere near 100% certain.

There was no terminal surgery required. That I am sure of.

Bunbuns 🙁

 

[Trilt]

NCSU has terminal pig surgeries as part of the curriculum during third year. Splenectomy (also had my first "OH ****" moment with a ligature not being tight enough and belly filling with blood basically immediately; terrifying and reassuring because you just ****ing deal with it if you have to), enterotomy, cystotomy, r&a. I kinda threw in a liver biopsy too. They were part of a joint research project so were euthed and limbs used for that shortly after.

Other than that, we had terminal stuff in our lab animal electives with rats, GPs, rabbits, etc.

I'd be personally fine with canine ones - there are literally thousands of dogs euthanized for space at our shelters that could be utilized with no change in their outcome. But seriously, that pig lab probably stands out as the most useful afternoon of vet school for me. I had done a lot of spay/neuter at that point but there is something very different when you're opening the whole abdomen and splicing organs instead of just clamp, ligate and removing.

 

[Staffie]

I wish we had terminal surgeries in the UK. But considering they can't even source our dissection dogs from the UK and have to get them shipped over from the states, I don't think that's ever going to happen here.

 

[DVMDream]

Well, you may do them yet, and, besides, tight ligatures are still important even in spays and neuters. Lordy, even in some mass removals. And dewclaw removals. And.....

I'm well aware... I was joking above with the giving LIS all my surgeries. I've done plenty of surgeries and have also been through vet school, thank you

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I'm well aware... I was joking above with the giving LIS all my surgeries. I've done plenty of surgeries and have also been through vet school, thank you

LOL.....I knew you were through vet school, but obviously I didn't get the inside joke with LIS. There are some vet jobs where some associates don't do any surgery.

Sorry I messed up your private joke.

 

[DVMDream]

LOL.....I knew you were through vet school, but obviously I didn't get the inside joke with LIS. There are some vet jobs where some associates don't do any surgery.

Sorry I messed up your private joke.

No worries. Actually would be my dream if I could do only neuters/mass removal and dentals. Would love to be an associate that does not do or does minimal surgery. 🙂

 

[LetItSnow]

But seriously, that pig lab probably stands out as the most useful afternoon of vet school for me. I had done a lot of spay/neuter at that point but there is something very different when you're opening the whole abdomen and splicing organs instead of just clamp, ligate and removing.

Yes. And even though teaching spays tend to have a fairly large incision because it makes the procedure easier, the teaching easier, etc., it's still most often (at least, in my teaching history) allow a student to really see the WHOLE abdomen and thoroughly explore it and get a really good feel for where organs lie in relationship to each other, what structures go where, what 'normal' looks like, etc. And that's a big deal once you're doing your first abdominal explore. Learning it in anatomy is a good/necessary starting point, but I think it would be good for schools to go a little further than that.

 

[doggylover]

The last list I saw was

Cornell
UC Davis (?)
UGA
LSU
Miss. SU
Tuskegee
Ohio SU
Auburn (?)

Current students are welcome to chime in as this may well be out of date.

These are all elective surgery labs, though. I don't think thee is any school that requires terminal surgery in a core class?

I don't believe Ohio SU does terminal surgeries anymore. Tuskegee and Auburn do, but I think they're both part of the normal third year core curriculum.

 

[Lab Vet]

NCSU has terminal pig surgeries as part of the curriculum during third year. Splenectomy (also had my first "OH ****" moment with a ligature not being tight enough and belly filling with blood basically immediately; terrifying and reassuring because you just ****ing deal with it if you have to), enterotomy, cystotomy, r&a. I kinda threw in a liver biopsy too. They were part of a joint research project so were euthed and limbs used for that shortly after.

Other than that, we had terminal stuff in our lab animal electives with rats, GPs, rabbits, etc.

I'd be personally fine with canine ones - there are literally thousands of dogs euthanized for space at our shelters that could be utilized with no change in their outcome. But seriously, that pig lab probably stands out as the most useful afternoon of vet school for me. I had done a lot of spay/neuter at that point but there is something very different when you're opening the whole abdomen and splicing organs instead of just clamp, ligate and removing.

Still true at NCSU. I am really grateful for the terminal swine labs. This was the only chance I had to practice abdominal surgery (other than OVH/Orchiectomy) prior to entering the real world (coming very soon). The course coordinator mentioned that there is currently some push back to remove them from the curriculum. I made sure to advocate for leaving them in when I had the chance to review the class at the end of the semester. They were very well taught and useful. The pigs were treated with the utmost respect prior to disposition.

 

[battie]

I'd be personally fine with canine ones - there are literally thousands of dogs euthanized for space at our shelters that could be utilized with no change in their outcome.

This is why I don't have a problem with terminal surgery classes. Even in a perfect world where animals aren't euthanized for space, there would still be dogs needing to be euthanized. Colorado is pretty dang close to being a no-kill state as far as space goes and still euthanizes several thousand dogs a year due to health concerns or behavioral issues where they should not be placed.