The Case Against a Fellowship?

[gasattack3]

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We've all heard the case FOR a fellowship, but what about the case AGAINST doing one?

Opportunity cost is maybe 250K assuming a 310K (a good job but not that sparce if you're willing to look at cities other than NYC, SF, Chicago etc. etc. where everyone seems to want to be) starting salary, and a 60K fellowship salary (perhaps on the low side and wouldn't take moonlighting into account).

Aside from that, what are some other reasons NOT to do one? I've heard the job market is reasonably good right now, again, if you're willing to consider less than prime real estate....

 

[bala1]

I've heard the job market is reasonably good right now, ..

where'd you hear that one? The market is soft at best!!!!! Not very good!. No jobs to speak of advertised in any major city except for employment jobs , some subspecialty jobs for peds and pain and cardiac. Perhaps the jobs are not advertised right now; but they sure were advertising 5-7 years ago.

 

[deleted307836]

where'd you hear that one? The market is soft at best!!!!! Not very good!. No jobs to speak of advertised in any major city except for employment jobs , some subspecialty jobs for peds and pain and cardiac. Perhaps the jobs are not advertised right not; but they sure were advertising 5-7 years ago.

Dude, give it up. This is obviously like your tenth username (maceo, etc) that you've used to spread nothing but exaggerated negativity. It's not insightful, just annoying.

 

[bala1]

Dude, give it up. This is obviously like your tenth username (maceo, etc) that you've used to spread nothing but exaggerated negativity. It's not insightful, just annoying.

I dont know about maceo, but seriously call a recruiter ask them! Im not spreading negativity. You are right it is not insightful, its plain as day that anyone can look up and see. The job market is NOT that good and thats why everyone is doing fellowships or thinking about it. I find it interesting how a medical student (if thats what you are) can tell me (attending 8 years) how the job market is and what the brutal realities of this field are. I would rather you just say THANKS !!

 

[IlDestriero]

Here's what I know. I changed jobs a few years ago and was offered several positions in both private practice and academics. None were found via a recruiter or online, not one, none were in remote undesirable locations. Most were above average income positions. Over the last few years, as the market has "continued to tighten", I've been called and emailed several times to try to get me to relocate. All of these positions were well compensated, and tempting in one way or another. Since I've been in my current job, I've trained dozens of fellows who all found jobs, including jobs in the tightest markets, and partnership track positions with very desirable groups. As far as I know, and I do ask, all of the fellows had multiple offers, except for a couple that had an extremely limited geographic requirements.
The only thing that's clear to me is that fewer jobs are advertised, and the offers are coming a few months later than they used to. There may be fewer partnerships available, or more questionable AMC jobs, but strong candidates DON'T have to take those offers. If you prefer to believe that the sky is falling, go for it.

 

[bala1]

Here's what I know. I changed jobs a few years ago and was offered several positions in both private practice and academics. None were found via a recruiter or online, not one, none were in remote undesirable locations. Most were above average income positions. Over the last few years, as the market has "continued to tighten", I've been called and emailed several times to try to get me to relocate. All of these positions were well compensated, and tempting in one way or another. Since I've been in my current job, I've trained dozens of fellows who all found jobs, including jobs in the tightest markets, and partnership track positions with very desirable groups. As far as I know, and I do ask, all of the fellows had multiple offers, except for a couple that had an extremely limited geographic requirements.
The only thing that's clear to me is that fewer jobs are advertised, and the offers are coming a few months later than they used to. There may be fewer partnerships available, or more questionable AMC jobs, but strong candidates DON'T have to take those offers. If you prefer to believe that the sky is falling, go for it.

The sky is NOT falling! Let me say that!!

And I think you are a cardiac fellow with TEE certification and I think you do peds cardiac? Correct?

If you are cardiac trained with TEE and do peds cardiac. or are pain certified or do the sickest of kids at 1 day old.. yeah you wont have a problem..

If you are a SOLID general anesthesiologist who graduated at a middle tier program and want to branch out from where you did your residency in bigger cities. You are going to have a tougher time. That's a fact! You WILL find a job, but be prepared to work in an area you didnt imagine yourself ever living!.

 

[cchoukal]

We've all heard the case FOR a fellowship, but what about the case AGAINST doing one?

Opportunity cost is maybe 250K assuming a 310K (a good job but not that sparce if you're willing to look at cities other than NYC, SF, Chicago etc. etc. where everyone seems to want to be) starting salary, and a 60K fellowship salary (perhaps on the low side and wouldn't take moonlighting into account).

Aside from that, what are some other reasons NOT to do one? I've heard the job market is reasonably good right now, again, if you're willing to consider less than prime real estate....

The reason not to do a fellowship is that you don't want to practice in the subspecialty area defined by the training. There are paycheck calculators online that will calculate the opportunity cost of the additional year (offset against what MIGHT be a higher income after subspecialty training). Such rudimentary arithmetic isn't worth hemming and hawing about; it's easily knowable math.

I suppose one other reason might be that you don't want to relocate for a year. That'd be a pretty big pain in the butt. The flipside, of course, and as was true for me, is that you might find that you really like the new region and decide to stay (and settle in and start a family).

 

[ssmallz]

If you are a SOLID general anesthesiologist who graduated at a middle tier program and want to branch out from where you did your residency in bigger cities. You are going to have a tougher time. That's a fact! You WILL find a job, but be prepared to work in an area you didnt imagine yourself ever living!.

I am a solid general anesthesiologist who graduated from a middle tier residency w/zero connections. I moved to one of the tightest markets in the country. No jobs were advertised, I've had 4 job offers in almost 2 years w/2 of them being average or better. Having talked to physicians in other specialties I can tell you that the market is no tighter than any other field of medicine. Getting a job in medicine is no different then getting a job in any other professional field like tech or business. Good jobs don't find you, you find good jobs. Make some calls, make some connections, put together a solid resume and learn how to interview. You may not find your dream job right away but if you keep plugging away you will climb the ladder and eventually end up where you want to go

 

[HalO'Thane]

One other reason not to do a fellowship is if there are plenty of hospitals/anesthesia groups in your desired job market that do not need your given sub-specialty. They may view your one year fellowship as superfluous. Even if you convince them that you have no desire to practice your sub-speciality you may be looked upon with skepticism. Why then did you take on an extra year of training? Could you not find a job after residency? Did you or your residency program think you NEEDED that extra year to develop your skills and knowledge base? I believe that as a generalist if you can get that first job in a given market, pass the boards, work hard, don't burn bridges, establish contacts in the area, and continually challenge yourself by expanding your skills (basic TEE cert, regional/ultrasound, etc.); you will be just as recession proof as someone with a sub-speciality. The vast majority of residents train at large academic centers. There is a strong bias toward sub-specialization in those places compared to the real world of private practice anesthesia. I think it is possible to test the waters of your desired job market as a resident by making a few phone calls to groups and hospitals and then making a decision to pursue a fellowship. It just requires some effort and it is something most of your attendings won't tell you about. They are too busy explaining the alveolar gas equation and other things that won't matter to you five years from now.

 

[bala1]

I am a solid general anesthesiologist who graduated from a middle tier residency w/zero connections. I moved to one of the tightest markets in the country. No jobs were advertised, I've had 4 job offers in almost 2 years w/2 of them being average or better. Having talked to physicians in other specialties I can tell you that the market is no tighter than any other field of medicine. Getting a job in medicine is no different then getting a job in any other professional field like tech or business. Good jobs don't find you, you find good jobs. Make some calls, make some connections, put together a solid resume and learn how to interview. You may not find your dream job right away but if you keep plugging away you will climb the ladder and eventually end up where you want to go

If you are equating your job search as a physician to people in the tech industry or business industry you just proved my point about the anesthesia job market!

 

[ssmallz]

If you are equating your job search as a physician to people in the tech industry or business industry you just proved my point about the anesthesia job market!

The point I was making is that it's not just anesthesia, it's all medical specialties.....ortho, EM, pain, ent...if you want a good job in a competitive market you've gotta do a bit of legwork. This does not mean you need a fellowship, it just means you've gotta do some searching. It also means that if you've got a fellowship you've still got to do those same things.

 

[countingdays]

Every case is different. This decision can't be generalized. Do what you want.


It's probably $180,000 opportunity cost after taxes, but can vary from 120-250 or so.

 

[gasattack3]

On the one hand, we in medicine are seeing increasing levels of subspecialty training. Talk of lengthening certain specialty training, even making Pain a separate residency altogether.

Then, in this same environment where MD's are almost across the board are adding formal training years, we have CMS rulings which may reimburse CRNAs for doing Pain Medicine. WTF??

On the one hand we often (whether we admit it to ourselves or not) feel the need to "hedge" against CRNA encroachment. On the other, they simply continue to encroach into almost all areas of our specialty. I know that the decision to do a fellowship shouldn't be made based on a "hedge", but rather for a love and desire to practice within that specialty, but the fact remains that many of we residents feel the need to hedge anyway.

On the flip side, many here are gauging 5 more years of "good times" and then it's anyone's guess. So, it seems that opportunity cost could be greater than ever to give up a year. And a year for what? So a CRNA can bill for the same thing?

When will CRNA's lobby successfully to become TEE certified?

I realize that adding credentials can never be bad. These changes will take time. But, at what point do you say enough is enough? We continue adding years of lost income and hard work in formal training programs and they continue with their on the job training and successfully lobbying to be "qualified" to perform subspecialty-like procedures etc. etc. It's disheartening.

Then, we hear how wonderful critical care will be to our field. But, show me the PP jobs! I don't see it. And to give up one year of significant earnings seems like a legitimately tough call.

We often convince ourselves that critical care will make us better doctors and anesthesiologists in general. But, wouldn't taking a PP job with a diverse array of cases and a challenging work environment do the same?

In some ways are we becoming "suckers" with all of the must do a fellowship talk? If money were no object, then sure it would be great. But, tell me, isn't CC (for example) the type of gig where the literature is constantly changing? Wouldn't it be essentially useless to go CC if you didn't intend on rounding in the unit as a career? It seems that you would lose a LOT of the gestalt that comes with CC medicine by being "out of the loop" for any length of time.

Just thinking out loud. Not at all bashing those whom either did fellowships or are doing them. Just asking some provocative questions which matters to many of us on the fence about doing this.

 

[EdPierce]

the biggest argument against a fellowship is that you can make 320+ without one - these jobs are easy to find and not in BFE

 

[jwk]

I dont know about maceo, but seriously call a recruiter ask them! Im not spreading negativity. You are right it is not insightful, its plain as day that anyone can look up and see. The job market is NOT that good and thats why everyone is doing fellowships or thinking about it. I find it interesting how a medical student (if thats what you are) can tell me (attending 8 years) how the job market is and what the brutal realities of this field are. I would rather you just say THANKS !!

MISTAKE #1 - calling a recruiter

MISTAKE #2 - listening to a recruiter

MISTAKE #3 - actually using a recruiter

I moved to one of the tightest markets in the country. No jobs were advertised, I've had 4 job offers in almost 2 years w/2 of them being average or better. Getting a job in medicine is no different then getting a job in any other professional field like tech or business. Good jobs don't find you, you find good jobs. Make some calls, make some connections, put together a solid resume and learn how to interview. You may not find your dream job right away but if you keep plugging away you will climb the ladder and eventually end up where you want to go

smallz has it spot on correct - you don't.

 

[deleted126335]

MISTAKE #1 - calling a recruiter

MISTAKE #2 - listening to a recruiter

MISTAKE #3 - actually using a recruiter



smallz has it spot on correct - you don't.

👍

There is a disincentive for groups to hire someone who is presented to them by a recruiter. Namely the five figure head hunter fee. BTW, just sending your CV to an unscrupulous recruiter might put the potential employer on the hook- You send your CV to a recuiter, the recruiter cold mails it to groups saying, "look at our wonderful candidates" they hire you independently and subsequently get a bill from he recruiter claiming to have "presented" you to the group. Good quality groups won't even talk to recruiters for this and other reasons.

 

[IlDestriero]

And I think you are a cardiac fellow with TEE certification and I think you do peds cardiac? Correct?

If you are cardiac trained with TEE and do peds cardiac. or are pain certified or do the sickest of kids at 1 day old.. yeah you wont have a problem..

Actually I'm a just a plain old pediatric anesthesiologist, and I do everything that I can to not have to do any peds cardiac kids, though that's not always possible. I can and do take care of the sickest kids in the hospital though, all the way down to a fetus, in fact i seek them out. If anything, that severely limits my job prospects as I'm realistically only going to want a position at a freestanding Children's hospital. I've had a few offers to be the head of peds in a large mixed group, but there are really no sick kids there for me, so I'm not going anywhere.
The reason to do a fellowship is simple, and is all over theses threads about fellowships. Do an extra year if you have a strong interest in one of the legitimate subspecialties, want to become an expert in that field, and want to spend a significant amount of time practicing that discipline. If that's you, taking an extra year of training, maybe working an extra year at the end won't be a problem. If you want to do a fellowship because blade or your program director wants you to stand out from a CRNA, etc, well that's nuts.
If you don't get your dream job, or one in you're first choice location, or the JPP mad loot, take the best one you can, kill that mother f'er every day, and relocate after you hone your skills and have real experience to offer your dream group. You think the most competitive groups have to hire new guys at all? They don't. They hire proven bad assess.
Some fellowships can help transform you into the bad ass that they're looking for though. Something to consider when your worried about deferring a year of attending income.

 

[bala1]

Actually I'm a just a plain old pediatric anesthesiologist, and I do everything that I can to not have to do any peds cardiac kids, though that's not always possible. I can and do take care of the sickest kids in the hospital though, all the way down to a fetus, in fact i seek them out. If anything, that severely limits my job prospects as I'm realistically only going to want a position at a freestanding Children's hospital. I've had a few offers to be the head of peds in a large mixed group, but there are really no sick kids there for me, so I'm not going anywhere.
The reason to do a fellowship is simple, and is all over theses threads about fellowships. Do an extra year if you have a strong interest in one of the legitimate subspecialties, want to become an expert in that field, and want to spend a significant amount of time practicing that discipline. If that's you, taking an extra year of training, maybe working an extra year at the end won't be a problem. If you want to do a fellowship because blade or your program director wants you to stand out from a CRNA, etc, well that's nuts.
If you don't get your dream job, or one in you're first choice location, or the JPP mad loot, take the best one you can, kill that mother f'er every day, and relocate after you hone your skills and have real experience to offer your dream group. You think the most competitive groups have to hire new guys at all? They don't. They hire proven bad assess.
Some fellowships can help transform you into the bad ass that they're looking for though. Something to consider when your worried about deferring a year of attending income.

You just made my point! Job market is SOFT for general anesthesiologist. You are willing to take care of sick sick children and thats why the market is great for you.

 

[MD Dreams]

Every case is different. This decision can't be generalized. Do what you want.


It's probably $180,000 opportunity cost after taxes, but can vary from 120-250 or so.

I agree with this. I'm doing a fellowship because I love the subspecialty and because I don't feel complete as an anesthesiologist without being an expert in that subspecialty--I want to be the "to go" guy. Even if CRNAs become compensated for TEE it won't matter to me because the training I will get during a fellowship and through taking the ECHO exam will not be matched by on the job training. I will be loosing at least 400 K during the year that I'm going back to fellowship. But it doesn't matter. I love Cardiac Anesthesia, I love being confident and an expert in my field, I love taking care of those sick patients. Those things mean more to me than money. So to me it's worth it. You have to search your heart. What's more important to you in life.

 

[deleted126335]

Actually I'm a just a plain old pediatric anesthesiologist, and I do everything that I can to not have to do any peds cardiac kids, though that's not always possible. I can and do take care of the sickest kids in the hospital though, all the way down to a fetus, in fact i seek them out. If anything, that severely limits my job prospects as I'm realistically only going to want a position at a freestanding Children's hospital. I've had a few offers to be the head of peds in a large mixed group, but there are really no sick kids there for me, so I'm not going anywhere.
The reason to do a fellowship is simple, and is all over theses threads about fellowships. Do an extra year if you have a strong interest in one of the legitimate subspecialties, want to become an expert in that field, and want to spend a significant amount of time practicing that discipline. If that's you, taking an extra year of training, maybe working an extra year at the end won't be a problem. If you want to do a fellowship because blade or your program director wants you to stand out from a CRNA, etc, well that's nuts.
If you don't get your dream job, or one in you're first choice location, or the JPP mad loot, take the best one you can, kill that mother f'er every day, and relocate after you hone your skills and have real experience to offer your dream group. You think the most competitive groups have to hire new guys at all? They don't. They hire proven bad assess.
Some fellowships can help transform you into the bad ass that they're looking for though. Something to consider when your worried about deferring a year of attending income.

You don't take a fellowship to distinguish yourself from a CRNA. However, one reason to consider it is to stand out from the crowd of other anesthesiologists. This often matters in a tight market or a desirable location. When an employer has their pick of candidates, having a niche stands out on the CV and gives you an edge. Is the edge worth the time and expense going forward? nobody can say for sure. For some it will undoubtedly be a waste of time and loss of income. For others it will be a wise investment of time and money. Both financially and in terms of professional satisfaction.

 

[IlDestriero]

The job market is always great for people bringing skills and experience to the table and the fairest, most competitive, highest paid groups in the best locations have always been challenging to break into. Nothing had changed about that.
The market will always be better for someone who offers more than the next guy, as long as they're looking for what you're offering.
I don't see many threads about not being able to find a fair job, and when a few folks post that they work for an AMC, etc. they are clear that they accepted that job willingly because of strict geographic limitations (divorced w/ kids, family, etc). I don't think anyone who is at least an average anesthesiologist, with no red flags, has to take a bad job anywhere unless they want to, and if you do end up somewhere you would rather not be, just leverage your experience and relocate in a few years. People do it all the time.

 

[bala1]

I agree with this. I'm doing a fellowship because I love the subspecialty and because I don't feel complete as an anesthesiologist without being an expert in that subspecialty--I want to be the "to go" guy. Even if CRNAs become compensated for TEE it won't matter to me because the training I will get during a fellowship and through taking the ECHO exam will not be matched by on the job training. I will be loosing at least 400 K during the year that I'm going back to fellowship. But it doesn't matter. I love Cardiac Anesthesia, I love being confident and an expert in my field, I love taking care of those sick patients. Those things mean more to me than money. So to me it's worth it. You have to search your heart. What's more important to you in life.

You are a perfect person to do a fellowship.

The most challenging cases are NOT CT cases. And often I find the cardiac anesthesiologists who do that full time are not that flexible when it comes to other cases. tricky mac cases, OB cases, etc etc. I had a cardiac anesthesiologist who had a tough airway. We got him out of it but i asked him why he didnt throw an LMA in. He confessed he never used LMAs. Just something to consider.. Cardiac is not the end all be all. Really isnt. Not to mention those cases are dwindling each and every year. If a center is doing 400 hears a year.. thats a lot of hearts. And it will dwindle further once they perfect minimally invasive aortic valve surgery.

 

[deleted87051]

You are a perfect person to do a fellowship.

The most challenging cases are NOT CT cases. And often I find the cardiac anesthesiologists who do that full time are not that flexible when it comes to other cases. tricky mac cases, OB cases, etc etc. I had a cardiac anesthesiologist who had a tough airway. We got him out of it but i asked him why he didnt throw an LMA in. He confessed he never used LMAs. Just something to consider.. Cardiac is not the end all be all. Really isnt. Not to mention those cases are dwindling each and every year. If a center is doing 400 hears a year.. thats a lot of hearts. And it will dwindle further once they perfect minimally invasive aortic valve surgery.

Really? We only do around 250 hearts a year. I do everything at a busy level 1 trauma center but I my toughest cases are middle of the night arch replacements, thoracic dissection, tamponade, etc. they require TEE, pa cath, lumbar drain, lung isolation, multiple a-lines, massive transfusion, multiple inotropes and vasopressors, all in a hurry in an unstable patient. That is worst case but we have lessor cases in the heart room that are much more complex than what I do in the general ORs. In comparison, "Tricky" MAC cases are a walk in the park. If it gets too tricky, I usually just stick in an LMA. I don't know if you do hearts or not. But if you don't, you really don't know.

 

[MD Dreams]

You are a perfect person to do a fellowship.

The most challenging cases are NOT CT cases. And often I find the cardiac anesthesiologists who do that full time are not that flexible when it comes to other cases. tricky mac cases, OB cases, etc etc. I had a cardiac anesthesiologist who had a tough airway. We got him out of it but i asked him why he didnt throw an LMA in. He confessed he never used LMAs. Just something to consider.. Cardiac is not the end all be all. Really isnt. Not to mention those cases are dwindling each and every year. If a center is doing 400 hears a year.. thats a lot of hearts. And it will dwindle further once they perfect minimally invasive aortic valve surgery.

I never said I want to do solely cardiac cases. I can do tricky Mac cases now. I can do LMAs now. I can handle difficult airways now. And I will continue to do these cases because I want to be a superb well rounded anesthesiologist. But I also want to be able to take care of the sickest of the sickest like its a walk in the park. That takes experience and knowledge that I plan on getting through a fellowship. If a really sick heart comes to me now I wouldn't be as comfortable as I want. Plus I want o master advanced Echo, not just read basic echo. In summary I want to be a cardiac trained anesthesiologist that is equally as good at general anesthesiology.

 

[bala1]

Really? We only do around 250 hearts a year. I do everything at a busy level 1 trauma center but I my toughest cases are middle of the night arch replacements, thoracic dissection, tamponade, etc. they require TEE, pa cath, lumbar drain, lung isolation, multiple a-lines, massive transfusion, multiple inotropes and vasopressors, all in a hurry in an unstable patient. That is worst case but we have lessor cases in the heart room that are much more complex than what I do in the general ORs. In comparison, "Tricky" MAC cases are a walk in the park. If it gets too tricky, I usually just stick in an LMA. I don't know if you do hearts or not. But if you don't, you really don't know.

decending thoracic aneurysm dissections are I agree tough cases. requiring a lot of lines, blood products etc. These cases dont come in that often at all .And i would venture to say a ruptured triple A can be equally challenging. A placenta acretta on OB. A mac case gone bad, See with general cases you still have the bad hearts with no info and surgeons who dont know what the **** to do. If you are in the cardiac room and something bad happens ,, Just go on pump. and you have a surgeon who actually has a clue. The chest is wide open and you can see what is going on. Everyone is on the same page. that takes A LOT pressure off the anesthesiologist. I used to do hearts 3 years ago. I am not at that hospital anymore. Another group took over but the hospital required us to stay in the room during the pump run and that SUUUUUUCCCKKED bad. 2 hours of doing NOTHING. Anyway i miss it a little but i never really found it too challenging. I did not do a fellowship

 

[deleted126335]

bala1,

You seem to have a thing for dissing cardiac anesthesiologists. I am not a CT anesthesiologist, but I do think that CT does seem to draw a higher percentage of the sharpest docs in this specialty than the other subspecialties within anesthesia do.

 

[drfeelgood]

MISTAKE #1 - calling a recruiter

MISTAKE #2 - listening to a recruiter

MISTAKE #3 - actually using a recruiter



smallz has it spot on correct - you don't.

I was lucky enough to find a great jod through a recruiter 6 years ago!!!! Maybe things have changed! SoCAL... 400k a year, partnership in 2 years. All benefits paid for other than dental, Q 13, q five weekend calls, no trauma or cardiac, almost 50k per year in 401k...match, safe harbor, profit sharing....friendly surgeons whom I hang out with on the weekends........ damn Obamacare might change my picture perfect attending life😕

 

[bala1]

I was lucky enough to find a great jod through a recruiter 6 years ago!!!! Maybe things have changed! SoCAL... 400k a year, partnership in 2 years. All benefits paid for other than dental, Q 13, q five weekend calls, no trauma or cardiac, almost 50k per year in 401k...match, safe harbor, profit sharing....friendly surgeons whom I hang out with on the weekends........ damn Obamacare might change my picture perfect attending life😕

I totally understand your point.If you are in a job searching position, however, what do you do? call the president of the group who is unlikely to take your call. Call the anesthesia billing office? they wont know anything! go un announced to the O.R? They'll call security. Talk to the secretary, she will say I dont know!! So sometimes you have no choice but to talk to recruiters who somehow have an "IN" and know what the groups needs are!.

Once you call them directly looking for a job the dynamic has changed. They have the upper hand and they know it in negotiations so just understand that

 

[bala1]

bala1,

You seem to have a thing for dissing cardiac anesthesiologists. I am not a CT anesthesiologist, but I do think that CT does seem to draw a higher percentage of the sharpest docs in this specialty than the other subspecialties within anesthesia do.

Im not dissing cardiac anesthesiologists at all. I did cardiac for five years. But what im saying is that they are NOT the only great anesthesiologists.. And certainly not the only ones who know how to take care of sick people. There seems to be a underlying theme that you have to do a fellowship, otherwise you arent complete. Gimme a freakin break. Thats the BS that is being sold at academic centers. In fact, they are NOT interested in hiring faculty unless they have a fellowship. CMON!!!!

 

[BLADEMDA]

Im not dissing cardiac anesthesiologists at all. I did cardiac for five years. But what im saying is that they are NOT the only great anesthesiologists.. And certainly not the only ones who know how to take care of sick people. There seems to be a underlying theme that you have to do a fellowship, otherwise you arent complete. Gimme a freakin break. Thats the BS that is being sold at academic centers. In fact, they are NOT interested in hiring faculty unless they have a fellowship. CMON!!!!

Fact: a fellowship is helpful in securing employment in highly desirable locations

Fact: a fellowship makes you stand out from the crowd

Fact: a fellowship should give you a unique skill set superior to the average new grad

Fact: to succeed in academia you need a fellowship

Fact: a TEE certified doc or a pediatric fellowship are valuable skill sets to certain groups

 

[deleted126335]

From the ABA website:



Pediatric Anesthesiology Certification
Pediatric Anesthesiology is a discipline of anesthesiology that includes the evaluation, preparation, and management of pediatric patients undergoing diagnostic and therapeutic procedures in operative and critical care settings. In addition, this discipline also entails the evaluation and treatment of children with acute and chronic painful disorders.

Examination Information

Physicians who apply for subspecialty certification in pediatric anesthesiology must:

Hold an unexpired license to practice medicine or osteopathy in at least one state or jurisdiction of the United States or Canada that is permanent, unconditional and unrestricted;
Be a Diplomate of The ABA;
Be participants in the ABA's Maintenance of Certification in Anesthesiology (MOCA) program;
Have satisfactorily completed fellowship training in pediatric anesthesiology or possess the required experience in pediatric anesthesiology as described below.
Fellowship Training:
Satisfactory completion of a one-year fellowship program in pediatric anesthesiology that was ACGME-accredited throughout the time of enrollment, with verification from the program director.

OR

"Grandfathering" Criteria
(Only for Diplomates who completed anesthesiology residency training before July 1, 2012)

An anesthesiologist's clinical practice has been devoted primarily to pediatric anesthesiology for the last 2 years, or at least 30% of an anesthesiologist's clinical practice, averaged over the last 5 years, has been devoted to pediatric anesthesiology. The anesthesiologist's practice must include neonates and children under the age of 2 years and procedures considered high-risk. Attestations from the applicant as well as the applicant's Department Chair (or other institutional official if the applicant is the Department Chair) that the applicant meets these practice requirements will be required.

Note: The ABA's Credentials Committee may request further documentation of an applicant's clinical practice, including case logs. Furthermore, "grandfathering" criteria will be applicable only through the certification examination in pediatric anesthesiology in 2015, after which authorized fellowship training in pediatric anesthesiology will be required. All candidates, including those who qualify via "grandfathering" criteria, must pass the subspecialty examination.

 

[MD Dreams]

From the ABA website:



Pediatric Anesthesiology Certification
Pediatric Anesthesiology is a discipline of anesthesiology that includes the evaluation, preparation, and management of pediatric patients undergoing diagnostic and therapeutic procedures in operative and critical care settings. In addition, this discipline also entails the evaluation and treatment of children with acute and chronic painful disorders.

Examination Information

Physicians who apply for subspecialty certification in pediatric anesthesiology must:

Hold an unexpired license to practice medicine or osteopathy in at least one state or jurisdiction of the United States or Canada that is permanent, unconditional and unrestricted;
Be a Diplomate of The ABA;
Be participants in the ABA's Maintenance of Certification in Anesthesiology (MOCA) program;
Have satisfactorily completed fellowship training in pediatric anesthesiology or possess the required experience in pediatric anesthesiology as described below.
Fellowship Training:
Satisfactory completion of a one-year fellowship program in pediatric anesthesiology that was ACGME-accredited throughout the time of enrollment, with verification from the program director.

OR

"Grandfathering" Criteria
(Only for Diplomates who completed anesthesiology residency training before July 1, 2012)

An anesthesiologist's clinical practice has been devoted primarily to pediatric anesthesiology for the last 2 years, or at least 30% of an anesthesiologist's clinical practice, averaged over the last 5 years, has been devoted to pediatric anesthesiology. The anesthesiologist's practice must include neonates and children under the age of 2 years and procedures considered high-risk. Attestations from the applicant as well as the applicant's Department Chair (or other institutional official if the applicant is the Department Chair) that the applicant meets these practice requirements will be required.

Note: The ABA's Credentials Committee may request further documentation of an applicant's clinical practice, including case logs. Furthermore, "grandfathering" criteria will be applicable only through the certification examination in pediatric anesthesiology in 2015, after which authorized fellowship training in pediatric anesthesiology will be required. All candidates, including those who qualify via "grandfathering" criteria, must pass the subspecialty examination.

Any idea as how to sign up to take the exam?

 

[IlDestriero]

ABA website.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Fact: to succeed in academia you need a fellowship

False. Depends on your definition of success. I stay in contact with some folks from residency who stayed in academics and they are doing just fine. It all depends on your perception.

 

[BLADEMDA]

False. Depends on your definition of success. I stay in contact with some folks from residency who stayed in academics and they are doing just fine. It all depends on your perception.

The odds of moving up the food chain increases with a fellowship. Some programs won't even hire a new grad without a fellowship. A fellowship gives you more options both in a academics and highly desirable private practice groups.

Do you need a fellowship? No. But, should you do a fellowship to improve the odds of success over your career (for new graduates)? Yes.

I don't blame anyone for getting out of training ASAP and pursuing as much money as possible in BFE; for some that is the right decision while for others that extra year will open up doors that would otherwise have remained closed.

A Fellowship simply gives you more career options in more locations usually in better jobs.

 

[secants]

Fact: a fellowship is helpful in securing employment in highly desirable locations

Fact: a fellowship makes you stand out from the crowd

Fact: a fellowship should give you a unique skill set superior to the average new grad

Fact: to succeed in academia you need a fellowship

Fact: a TEE certified doc or a pediatric fellowship are valuable skill sets to certain groups

Does doing a fellowship increase salary potential as it does in IM?

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Blade I don't disagree with anything you have said below - my point is that making blanket statements that cover all circumstances is shortsighted IMHO.

The odds of moving up the food chain increases with a fellowship. Some programs won't even hire a new grad without a fellowship. A fellowship gives you more options both in a academics and highly desirable private practice groups.

Do you need a fellowship? No. But, should you do a fellowship to improve the odds of success over your career (for new graduates)? Yes.

I don't blame anyone for getting out of training ASAP and pursuing as much money as possible in BFE; for some that is the right decision while for others that extra year will open up doors that would otherwise have remained closed.

A Fellowship simply gives you more career options in more locations usually in better jobs.

 

[MD Dreams]

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to best study for the peds anesthesia certification exam?

 

[bala1]

The odds of moving up the food chain increases with a fellowship. Some programs won't even hire a new grad without a fellowship. A fellowship gives you more options both in a academics and highly desirable private practice groups.

Do you need a fellowship? No. But, should you do a fellowship to improve the odds of success over your career (for new graduates)? Yes.

I don't blame anyone for getting out of training ASAP and pursuing as much money as possible in BFE; for some that is the right decision while for others that extra year will open up doors that would otherwise have remained closed.

A Fellowship simply gives you more career options in more locations usually in better jobs.

I've always said this. If we spend FOUR years of training (and its not an easy four years), and after that four years we still need a fellowship to distinguish ourselves from each other and nurse anesthetists, then the training is rigged or we are doing something majorly wrong.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I've always said this. If we spend FOUR years of training (and its not an easy four years), and after that four years we still need a fellowship to distinguish ourselves from each other and nurse anesthetists, then the training is rigged or we are doing something majorly wrong.

The whole system is "majorly wrong" but the fellowship is valuable for career enhanement and job stability.

25 years ago Anesthesiology was only 24 months then it went to 36 months. Now, in the era of subspecialization and Dr. Mid Level providers it has become 48 months because of the fellowship year.

Skip the fellowship only if you have connections for a good job; even then I can't endorse that decision.