The final word on "elite colleges!!"

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Um, did you read the article? After reading the entire thing, seems to me they come to the same conclusion as most of the threads on sdn: a definite maybe.
 
An earlier study using the same date, but instead focussing on input variables and outcome and not looking at college (class rank and SAT) found that these variables predicted success whether or not someone went to a top school. So it seems like in many cases top schools have better outcomes just because they have better students to begin with.

However, I think it was underpriveleged students (or maybe a different subgroup), where college did make a difference, above and beyond predictors related to HS performance.


So yeah, the take home was that, at best, if you're a middle class kid it's far from a safe bet that it matters. I still think it does in specific scenarios, but as far as the data shows... not so much.
 
(For the sake of this exercise, set aside those students at elite colleges whose financial aid packages cover most, if not all, of their education.)
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Frankly, the low cost due to FA is the reason I'm going to one...
 
slowbutsteady said:
In today's NYT:

"Is going to an elite college worth it?"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/weekinreview/19steinberg.html?scp=5&sq=college&st=cse

ANSWER: YES!!

So this should be the last thread on this topic!! Done and done.

Your welcome.
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Wait, I didn't realize it, but the study I mentioned is also mentioned in the article. Did you even read it? I'm going to nominate this for most ridiculous post ever. "ANSWER: YES!!" but only if you don't actually read past the first few paragraphs. The results are pretty much hosed away by the other correlation later in the article (on one half of the outcome anyway, the other half might not have been investigated), and most of the article (even if you don't focus on the just the scientific data, which seems to point to, ANSWER: NO!! WITH EXCEPTIONS) seems to be sort of lukewarm to the idea that they matter at most.
 
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JKinSC said:
Um, did you read the article? After reading the entire thing, seems to me they come to the same conclusion as most of the threads on sdn: a definite maybe.
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I think it does matter to some extent, but just by going on the information in the article, I would be inclined to say that the net is: probably not.

I don't think the article addresses everything though.

But yeah, worst. post. ever. (the OP, not you)
 
Interesting conclusion you bring up here, since the entire study almost doesn't apply to medical school applicants at all. Going to Harvard undergrad isn't going to net you 40% more as a physician than someone who went to a state school who is in the same specialty as you.

And I sure hope you're not trying to compare this undergraduate study to prestige of medical schools.

Either way,
near the end of the article said:
In the end, some researchers echo that tried-and-perhaps-even-true wisdom of guidance counselors: the extent to which one takes advantage of the educational offerings of an institution may be more important, in the long run, than how prominently and proudly that institution's name is being displayed on the back windows of cars in the nation's wealthiest enclaves.
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Doing well > prestige of school.
 
:corny:


You guys are way too predicable. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
slowbutsteady said:
:corny:


You guys are way too predicable. Like shooting fish in a barrel.
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So you can troll or pretend to troll to cover mistakes. Either way, grats on being about on par with a middle school 4chaner.
 
Elite college= $100,000+ in debt
Med school= $200,000+ in debt

Total $300,000+ in debt...

Watching people cry because they have no money...priceless
 
From my personal experience--when I applied to colleges years and years ago--I only applied to top-20 LACs, and even though I come from an upper-middle class background, the cost of attendance at every institution ended-up being less expensive than in-state tuition at my state's flagship school. When you consider that the elite universities and LACs have capped student loan amounts at either less than $2,000 a year to no loans at all, the cost of an elite education is truly a better deal than a state school. http://projectonstudentdebt.org/Type_and_Coverage.vp.html

What the author should have adressed is whether or not a non-elite private school was worth the hefty price tag; I'm inclined to think not.

To any posters who are in the process of applying to college, do not let the price tage of elite univerisites scare you: very, very few people pay the sticker price. Besides, going to an elite college will not only help you get into medical school, it gives you cachet that will follow you for the rest of your life.
 
people read this article how they want to read it...

the eliteness of a college matters does matter in some aspects. but sometimes its not worth it.

elite schools have more opportunities (due to large endowment) and attract a higher calibre of students. simple as that.

what does a 4.0 mean at an ivy as compared to a state school? sure HYPS is infamous for grade inflation. my state school thinks grade inflation is curving so the average is a C not an A-. but also at an ivy you may be competing against people who are more education oriented. so what can you say?... nothing because no one attends both simultaneously, so how can you compare. each professor is different.

the only thing a student can do is pick and hope for the best. that's all we can do.
 
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...lol
 
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I attended an elite private school, my parents picked up the tab.🙁 Who knows if it helped me to succeed. I had a 3.4x GPA. If I attended my respectable state school, I probably would have had a 3.9x. It all worked out in the end. If I had an elite state school like UVA or UNC, etc it would have been the obvious choice. I would have liked to have not sweated my MCAT results knowing that my GPA was higher. Maybe the elite school competition helped me to do very well on the MCAT exam. I have lazy tendencies, so lower competition would likely have hurt me. There's no way to know. Make your choice, work hard, do well. Success will come either way.
 
whoMD said:
what does a 4.0 mean at an ivy as compared to a state school? sure HYPS is infamous for grade inflation. my state school thinks grade inflation is curving so the average is a C not an A-. but also at an ivy you may be competing against people who are more education oriented. so what can you say?... nothing because no one attends both simultaneously, so how can you compare. each professor is different.
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Uh, no. Harvard maybe, but Princeton is known for grade deflation if anything. I don't know about the others.
 
gettheleadout said:
Uh, no. Harvard maybe, but Princeton is known for grade deflation if anything. I don't know about the others.
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NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg


According to the Princeton University faculty grading handbook:
Grading_graph_1.png


40% As is the very definition of grade inflation!!!


Further, students are apparently NOT being challenged by the looks of the average GPA:

Grading_graph_3.png


By the looks of it, only 10-20% are below a 3.0 (most universities are closer to 50% since most have a median GPA around 3.0-3.2). The top 10% are 3.7+, which is similar to most schools nationally. In other words, they are inflating and compressing their grade distribution.
 
armybound said:
Interesting conclusion you bring up here, since the entire study almost doesn't apply to medical school applicants at all. Going to Harvard undergrad isn't going to net you 40% more as a physician than someone who went to a state school who is in the same specialty as you.

And I sure hope you're not trying to compare this undergraduate study to prestige of medical schools.
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This.

And honestly, for a benefit that may not even exist, it's not worth the money IMO. I'll stick to the cheap state school.
 
chman said:
^^^ I hope you didn't attend one of these elite colleges.
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omg, I am usually the grammar nazi!!! You're right!!!!

But the rest of you are just reading the article with your own biases, which is your prerogative, but will not change the facts.

Yes, if you are very smart and could have gone to an elite school and chose not to, you might end up in the same place at the end of the day. That does not change the fact, however, that actually attending an elite school helps you in grad school admissions and the job market.

See, the problem with most of the posters is that they are not accomplished enough to be accepted to an elite school, so they spend the rest of their lives telling themselves that it doesn't matter. And they are NOT among the group who is going to do just as well. Sorry.
 
torshi said:
Elite college= $100,000+ in debt
Med school= $200,000+ in debt

Total $300,000+ in debt...

Watching people cry because they have no money...priceless
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Not elite school on scholarship: 0k
State med school on scholarship: 60k

+240k in the bank: WORTH IT!
 
slowbutsteady said:
omg, I am usually the grammar nazi!!! You're right!!!!

But the rest of you are just reading the article with your own biases, which is your prerogative, but will not change the facts.

Yes, if you are very smart and could have gone to an elite school and chose not to, you might end up in the same place at the end of the day. That does not change the fact, however, that actually attending an elite school helps you in grad school admissions and the job market.

See, the problem with most of the posters is that they are not accomplished enough to be accepted to an elite school, so they spend the rest of their lives telling themselves that it doesn't matter. And they are NOT among the group who is going to do just as well. Sorry.
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Yea, and people who go to elite schools are doing just the opposite by saying that it does matter. Obviously an individual from either group is going to say anything to rationalize their decision, whether it be saying that debt isn't worth it, or that state schools are for losers. This is why nobody can say anything that will be conducive to forming a general concensus.
 
Chops369 said:
Yea, and people who go to elite schools are doing just the opposite by saying that it does matter. Obviously an individual from either group is going to say anything to rationalize their decision, whether it be saying that debt isn't worth it, or that state schools are for losers. This is why nobody can say anything that will be conducive to forming a general concensus.
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You do realize that the "debt myth" has been debunked. The grants given by Ivy League schools result in a lower average debt per student than many/most state schools.

So if the "it's cheaper" argument falls apart, why would people who attend elite schools have to rationalize anything?

And no one ever said state schools are for losers.
 
Brachyury said:
From my personal experience--when I applied to colleges years and years ago--I only applied to top-20 LACs, and even though I come from an upper-middle class background, the cost of attendance at every institution ended-up being less expensive than in-state tuition at my state's flagship school. When you consider that the elite universities and LACs have capped student loan amounts at either less than $2,000 a year to no loans at all, the cost of an elite education is truly a better deal than a state school. http://projectonstudentdebt.org/Type_and_Coverage.vp.html

What the author should have adressed is whether or not a non-elite private school was worth the hefty price tag; I'm inclined to think not.

To any posters who are in the process of applying to college, do not let the price tage of elite univerisites scare you: very, very few people pay the sticker price. Besides, going to an elite college will not only help you get into medical school, it gives you cachet that will follow you for the rest of your life.
Click to expand...

elaborate please
 
slowbutsteady said:
You do realize that the "debt myth" has been debunked. The grants given by Ivy League schools result in a lower average debt per student than many/most state schools.

So if the "it's cheaper" argument falls apart, why would people who attend elite schools have to rationalize anything?

And no one ever said state schools are for losers.
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That may be true for Ivy League schools, but for top tier private schools, that usually isn't the case. All I'm saying is that for the purpose of applying to medical school, it seems to be more logical to minimize debt in any way you can. Especially for students who pay their own way.

If you can get into an elite school and come out with little to no debt, more power to you. But I still don't think anyone other than adcoms will really know just how much of a difference it will make in the long run.
 
apumic said:
According to the Princeton University faculty grading handbook:
Grading_graph_1.png


40% As is the very definition of grade inflation!!!


Further, students are apparently NOT being challenged by the looks of the average GPA:

Grading_graph_3.png


By the looks of it, only 10-20% are below a 3.0 (most universities are closer to 50% since most have a median GPA around 3.0-3.2). The top 10% are 3.7+, which is similar to most schools nationally. In other words, they are inflating and compressing their grade distribution.
Click to expand...


Do these graphs even depict significant differences?

Also, elite schools attract students who worked really hard in high school, and work very hard in college. These schools have the best students. Therefore, is it really inflation when all of the best students get the best grades?
 
eagles22 said:
Do these graphs even depict significant differences?

Also, elite schools attract students who worked really hard in high school, and work very hard in college. These schools have the best students. Therefore, is it really inflation when all of the best students get the best grades?
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Well, yes, it actually is. If it is supposedly harder academically at these institutions, then that should offset the caliber of students. It is pretty well documented that there has at least been, at one point, grade inflation at many of the ivy schools (meaning grades were one average lower at point X than Y, Z, etc, in a time frame of years).

I really find it hard to believe that it is harder to get A's at many of the Ivy schools than quite a few of the public schools. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that intro to chem at Harvard is any harder than intro to chem at Berkeley, U Mich, UW, etc?

The bottom line is that students from state schools will always feel one way about this issue and students from elite private schools will always feel the other. The truth is probably stuck somewhere in between and won't be found on this forum, or any other for that matter.
 
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It is believed in our society (American society) that a degree from Harvard, Yale, Princeton or Stanford pretty much makes you set for life. I mean think about it, students RARELY flunk out of those universities. I wonder something, does a degree from those universities basically pave life for you?

Like are you basically set for life if you graduate from Princeton regardless of your GPA?

Is there such thing as a top 5 college grad who is not doing financially well after he finishes college?

That question has been itching my mind.
 
apumic said:
40% As is the very definition of grade inflation!!!

By the looks of it, only 10-20% are below a 3.0 (most universities are closer to 50% since most have a median GPA around 3.0-3.2). The top 10% are 3.7+, which is similar to most schools nationally. In other words, they are inflating and compressing their grade distribution.
Click to expand...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/31/education/31princeton.html

The mean GPA for the c/o 2009 was 3.39, and it's been decreasing. Compare the distribution to the other Ivies, and you'll see why Princeton doesn't belong lumped in with the others known for grade inflation.
 
Big part of the article that some people seem to be missing out on here: "It can be hard to disentangle the impact of the institution from the inherent abilities and personal qualities of the individual graduate."

And they continue on to quote a study in which students from top-tier schools are matched with students from lower-tier schools and no difference is found.

There are way too many factors that go into choosing a school to say conclusively that a top tier school is better than a state school, or vice versa. I personally turned down an offer from a top school in favor of a full tuition scholarship at my state school.

And the fact of the matter is, a certain portion of the middle/upper middle class gets stuck in the grey area of being too wealthy for grants or subsidized loans, but not wealthy enough to shell out $50 k/year. So price IS an issue.

Basically, it comes down to this: are you the type of person that wants to be surrounded by others who have attained your level of academic and personal success? Some people thrive in this type of environment. State schools are much more "watered down," so to speak, with students who don't take their education seriously. You have to go to greater lengths to foster a good learning environment for yourself by taking honors classes, finding research opportunities, etc.

My opinion is basically this: yes, elite schools are better than state schools. However, where you attend school only has so big of an effect on your success. Saying that your success is completely due to where you attended school is like saying your high GPA is completely due to your genetic predisposition to being intelligent. That's ridiculous--there's other factors at play. Ultimately, your school will not affect whether you are successful. That's YOUR responsibility.
 
chman said:
I really find it hard to believe that it is harder to get A's at many of the Ivy schools than quite a few of the public schools. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that intro to chem at Harvard is any harder than intro to chem at Berkeley, U Mich, UW, etc?
Click to expand...

No the classes aren't harder, but the students are better. It's not inflation when good students do well.
 
eagles22 said:
No the classes aren't harder, but the students are better. It's not inflation when good students do well.
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Well the data doesn't seem to agree with that simple explanation.

http:///www.gradeinflation.com/

While grades have been inflated at all schools in recent years, they seem to have been more so at elite private ones. Why? Well according to you it is simply caliber of students, I think it is a bit more complicated than that. One of the main points of going to an elite private school is that it is the best of the best competing in a rigorous environment. The rigor of the curriculum is supposedly much more difficult and therefor should offset the fact that the average student is of a higher caliber than the average state school.

The reality, in my mind, is that the advantage of elite private schools is the size of the classes and access to professors. The grades are inflated at these institutions for two primary reasons: 1) To keep their prestige, and 2) Money. Alumni are not as willing to give large sums of money to schools with low GPA's. Likewise, the more students from these schools that get in to competitive, lucrative, and elite professional schools, like med school, the more prestige these institutions attain.

It is detrimental to these elite schools to have the same average GPA as state schools because all of a sudden they don't look so elite.

I am not saying that the caliber of students at these schools isn't high. Obviously they are some of the best in the country, or indeed the world. What I am saying is that the grade inflation may not have anything to do with the quality of students. Big state schools can't have everyone getting A's and need a way to regulate it. Private schools don't have that problem.


Lastly, we must consider why grades have been inflated at all institutions. Well, again I think money has a lot to do with it. But also, and not to sound like an old man at 24, but I think students today really do expect more handed to them. Students who have had all A's in high school can be fairly traumatized by poor grades when they get in to college. Is is possible that disgruntled parents are more likely to stick up for little Johnny at a private school than public when it comes to this situation? I don't know, maybe, who knows?

I just think it is a little more complicated than you make it out to be.
 
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rhesuspieces said:
Big part of the article that some people seem to be missing out on here: "It can be hard to disentangle the impact of the institution from the inherent abilities and personal qualities of the individual graduate."
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This is the important part. Top schools are snagging the really motivated, intelligent students but that doesn't really say anything about the ability of these schools to "create" smart, motivated students.
 
...
 
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slowbutsteady said:
omg, I am usually the grammar nazi!!! You're right!!!!

But the rest of you are just reading the article with your own biases, which is your prerogative, but will not change the facts.

Yes, if you are very smart and could have gone to an elite school and chose not to, you might end up in the same place at the end of the day. That does not change the fact, however, that actually attending an elite school helps you in grad school admissions and the job market.

See, the problem with most of the posters is that they are not accomplished enough to be accepted to an elite school, so they spend the rest of their lives telling themselves that it doesn't matter. And they are NOT among the group who is going to do just as well. Sorry.
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And you had the nerve to call me annoying?
 
^^ so funny, sounds fun
I heard something about this on the news a few weeks ago ;p

But nothing beats Harvard quidditch lmao...
 
...
 
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I think we learned two things from this article.

1) Never just read the abstract/first paragraph. What actually matters happens in the methods/results

2) Never read a popular news source's take on a study. It is often full of huge biases and/or makes false conclusions. Many 'elite' colleges have been cheaper than state schools for awhile (assuming you don't come from money as only need based aid is generally given), and even some private medical schools are cheaper than in state ones based on average scholarships given.
 
Hey, they had a picture of my school's dining hall on the front page of the article!!! Woot woot, maybe this place is becoming elite 🙂

Edit: Oh apparently, they only have my school on the Huffington Post version of the story 🙁 Of course they put Hahvard on the NYT version 😛
 
Kevin Baker said:
I think we learned two things from this article.

1) Never just read the abstract/first paragraph. What actually matters happens in the methods/results

2) Never read a popular news source's take on a study. It is often full of huge biases and/or makes false conclusions. Many 'elite' colleges have been cheaper than state schools for awhile (assuming you don't come from money as only need based aid is generally given), and even some private medical schools are cheaper than in state ones based on average scholarships given.
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Do you have anything you can show to prove the assertion that needy students at state schools pay more than needy students at elite private ones? Do you have any data on debt comparison of the two? I would be interested in looking at that (not sarcastic).
 
imer said:
Smug dink - you can't possibly believe this - if you could make it into my med school (which I doubt) I'd give you an academic state school thrashing.
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lol wut? Did you even read what I said? Yes, I think "elite" schools are better in many, many ways. However, I don't think they produce better students and I think there are very few successful people in this world who can truly attribute that success to the undergrad institution they went to. In short, elite schools are better but it doesn't matter anyway. There's no reason not to choose a state school if it's a better option for you personally.

By the way, I go to a state school and I've never regretted it. But thanks anyway for accusing me of being a "smug dink" and insinuating that I'm academically inferior to you.
 
Ansar said:
Frankly, the low cost due to FA is the reason I'm going to one...
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Ditto. If it wasn't for financial aid, I wouldn't have even applied. But then I look at my peers who are paying 50K a year to attend my school and I think they are out of their mind.
 
torshi said:
Elite college= $100,000+ in debt
Med school= $200,000+ in debt

Total $300,000+ in debt...

Watching people cry because they have no money...priceless
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It costs me about $2,000 a year to attend Yale and my parents make about 110K a year. Plus I get a free $6,000 drop to another country for at least one summer. And for many people here, this was by far the cheaper option. It is ridiculous that the article ignores people on financial aid, when we comprise about 50% of the entire student body. State school is too expensive.
 
Dbate said:
It costs me about $2,000 a year to attend Yale and my parents make about 110K a year. Plus I get a free $6,000 drop to another country for at least one summer. And for many people here, this was by far the cheaper option. It is ridiculous that the article ignores people on financial aid, when we comprise about 50% of the entire student body. State school is too expensive.
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I'm confuzzled
Where's the catch!?
Do you need to demonstrate financial need? I actually heard they favor higher income families, so i mean do they expect you to hopefully donate in the near future and that's it?

I wanna go to an ivy league now...lol
 
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