The final word on "elite colleges!!"

[Dbate]

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Well, yes, it actually is. If it is supposedly harder academically at these institutions, then that should offset the caliber of students. It is pretty well documented that there has at least been, at one point, grade inflation at many of the ivy schools (meaning grades were one average lower at point X than Y, Z, etc, in a time frame of years).

I really find it hard to believe that it is harder to get A's at many of the Ivy schools than quite a few of the public schools. Are you going to tell me with a straight face that intro to chem at Harvard is any harder than intro to chem at Berkeley, U Mich, UW, etc?

The material is not harder the curve is. At Yale, almost everyone one of my classmates was in the top 10 in their highschool class and scored in the top 1% of all test takers on standardized exams. Even if you look at minorities (which I am, because I am black) they are admitted with lower stats. But what are lower stats? For me, I was number 10 out of 500 in my class and scored a 34 on the ACT. If, for hypothetical purposes, the dumbest person in your class was still in the top 10 in his high school and scored exceptionally well on standardized tests, don't you think the average grade will be considerably higher than the average grade at a school like Berkeley?

Also, would it at all seem reasonable to anyone to have the percentage of grades given out at a school like Berkeley be equivalent to the percentage of grades given out at Yale? No. It would be an injustice to penalize us for our academic ability by imposing a curve where half of all the students received a C or lower. Because in all honesty, few people here would produce work that was worthy of a C.

 

[Dbate]

I'm confuzzled
Where's the catch!?

The catch is that our endowment is $16 billion dollars and my tuition money is meaningless to them. Also, I have two other brothers in college at the same time.

 

[chman]

The material is not harder the curve is. At Yale, almost everyone one of my classmates was in the top 10 in their highschool class and scored in the top 1% of all test takers on standardized exams. Even if you look at minorities (which I am, because I am black) they are admitted with lower stats. But what are lower stats? For me, I was number 10 out of 500 in my class and scored a 34 on the ACT. If, for hypothetical purposes, the dumbest person in your class was still in the top 10 in his high school and scored exceptionally well on standardized tests, don't you think the average grade will be considerably higher than the average grade at a school like Berkeley?

Also, would it at all seem reasonable to anyone to have the percentage of grades given out at a school like Berkeley be equivalent to the percentage of grades given out at Yale? No. It would be an injustice to penalize us for our academic ability by imposing a curve where half of all the students received a C or lower. Because in all honesty, few people here would produce work that was worthy of a C.

Please read my second post on this topic. I think it is a little more complicated than, "we're better than they are."

 

[Dbate]

Please read my second post on this topic. I think it is a little more complicated than, "we're better than they are."

But that simply is the case, especially when one analyzes it in temporal terms. Prior to the proliferation of financial aid, the Ivies and elite colleges drew from a very parochial set of private prep schools. Over time they broadened their recruitment and the caliber of the student body literally rose exponentially as each year thousands of more applicants, who in prior years would not have applied, applied and were admitted. These students were better than their predecessors because they were admitted solely on academic ability and less on the ability of their parents to donate buildings.

As the percentage of legacies declined, the caliber of the student body rose and the average GPA rose.

This same phenomena was seen at state schools. In more recent years, the pool from which a state school drew its applicants increased, due to financial incentives initiated by state legislators and merit awards, but also due to the growth of the middle class and an increasing amount of opulence in the general population, which caused more students to attend college.
However, state schools are limited to the talent within their own state's borders. As a consequence, the quality of students that state schools drew, in this time period of increasing student ability, was lower than those the Ivies drew, as the Ivies could take the top students from any state and around the world.

The sum total is across the board grade inflation, but a lesser rate of grade inflation at state schools than Ivies, which is clearly what the data shows.

 

[chman]

But that simply is the case, especially when one analyzes it in temporal terms. Prior to the proliferation of financial aid, the Ivies and elite colleges drew from a very parochial set of private prep schools. Over time they broadened their recruitment and the caliber of the student body literally rose exponentially as each year thousands of more applicants, who in prior years would not have applied, applied and were admitted. These students were better than their predecessors because they were admitted solely on academic ability and less on the ability of their parents to donate buildings.

As the percentage of legacies declined, the caliber of the student body rose and the average GPA rose.

This same phenomena was seen at state schools. In more recent years, the pool from which a state school drew its applicants increased, due to financial incentives initiated by state legislators and merit awards, but also due to the growth of the middle class and an increasing amount of opulence in the general population, which caused more students to attend college.
However, state schools are limited to the talent within their own state's borders. As a consequence, the quality of students that state schools drew, in this time period of increasing student ability, was lower than those the Ivies drew, as the Ivies could take the top students from any state and around the world.

The sum total is across the board grade inflation, but a lesser rate of grade inflation at state schools than Ivies, which is clearly what the data shows.

Those are interesting points and not without merit. I'm not completely convinced that there is not at least some inflation due to the reasons I listed, however.

 

[Dbate]

Those are interesting points and not without merit. I'm not completely convinced that there is not at least some inflation due to the reasons I listed, however.

In all honesty, the grades are probably inflated too, but I work too hard to want to admit that.

For example, in my intro chem class, 92% of all the students got either an A or B and the other 8% got some type of C. No one received a grade lower than a C-. And I took the chem class that was graded harder. In my class, the grade was curved to about a B+. In the other chem class, the grade was curved to an A-.

A professor is not allowed to curve a class to below a B+, from what I hear (but maybe the math department is an exception). Apparently, an orgo professor tried that and the registrar rejected his grades.

 

[CollOnTheRoll]

Haha it's pretty funny watching these SDNers from crappy garbage schools act like they're worth more than they actually are.

 

[cyanide]

Haha it's pretty funny watching these SDNers from crappy garbage schools act like they're worth more than they actually are.

 

[IlDestriero]

What's up with the fake profiles and the stalking? Grow up, washout.

 

[WingedOx]

picture

you know the sad thing about this is that this pic didn't really lower the discourse of this thread much...

 

[imer]

...

 

[Kevin Baker]

Do you have anything you can show to prove the assertion that needy students at state schools pay more than needy students at elite private ones? Do you have any data on debt comparison of the two? I would be interested in looking at that (not sarcastic).

I don't have any aggregate data. I know with all of the Ivies and many elite LACs, they are 'need blind' and tuition is generally capped at 10% of family income (pre tax). I assume that is less than it what cost to attend the state school (at least for me it did) but we all know assuming makes an ass out of u and me.

 

[gettheleadout]

The catch is that our endowment is $16 billion dollars and my tuition money is meaningless to them. Also, I have two other brothers in college at the same time.

Holy crap

Which washout - and who put you in charge? This thread was an accident from the start, it's a bit late to be yelling at the pigs to get back into the pen.

And monkeychick chick - I didn't insinuate your academic inferiority, I'm sure I stated it. How can your school be any good when you don't even have a football team.

Wow I'm sure you're really a med student by your demonstrated maturity here 👎 either go troll somewhere else (trying to argue over how clearly your insult was stated/random football comment = trolling) or get a life. And learn some respect. If you don't, some chief resident will slap it into you during third year.

 

[rhesuspieces]

And monkeychick chick - I didn't insinuate your academic inferiority, I'm sure I stated it. How can your school be any good when you don't even have a football team.

Don't have a football team? Sure, the Gophers are abysmal, but we're still a Big Ten school....😕

That's beside the point, anyway. I share gettheleadout's sentiments here, though you do seem like you're enjoying yourself with the trolling.

 

[rhesuspieces]

Haha it's pretty funny watching these SDNers from crappy garbage schools act like they're worth more than they actually are.

On a different note, "Coll"OnTheRoll got 14 posts. Really outdid ColeOnThe"Role" there.

 

[gettheleadout]

On a different note, "Coll"OnTheRoll got 14 posts. Really outdid ColeOnThe"Role" there.

lol...anyone know if banning extends to the IP address?

 

[imer]

[...

 

[rhesuspieces]

lol...anyone know if banning extends to the IP address?

No, I don't think so. Remember that guy that got banned then came back with a new username to tell us how he is awesome and got into med school even though the SDNers told him he would fail?

monkeychick chick, where to begin ... umm, why don't you walk over to the stadium and shovel it out for the game tomorrow - you sound like you need to get up and knock a little dust off the old gearbox.

I appreciate your concern but the stadium's shoveled out already. You really think it would take Minnesotans that long to clear snow out of a football stadium?

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

Elite college= $100,000+ in debt
Med school= $200,000+ in debt

Total $300,000+ in debt...

Watching people cry because they have no money...priceless

I'll be $0 in debt from my undergraduate school. Many HS students don't do enough research. I know a girl that got into Duke and Wash U, but attended a local state U because she thought it would be too expensive otherwise. Her household income is $40,000, and she would have been covered 100% by both universities . As far as med school debt, most people are screwed.

 

[gettheleadout]

Thank-you, I think it does, in fact, prove I'm really a med student.

AND

you'll need to develop a bit more substance to your posts before you're ready to tackle a PS - but don't give up you'll find a voice 😱

I'm not seeing how that proves anything positive on your end...And way to resort to more insults for no reason 👍 Care to be more specific on what aspects of my speech are so underdeveloped? Actually, don't. This is the internet and I couldn't care less what you think

 

[Danlee07]

The article states that in terms of a pre-professional interest, the elite college label is not as necessary. There are also many variables for that comparison between state and private colleges, but it's stats... you manipulate to how you want to prove. There's no definites listed in the article.

 

[gettheleadout]

A catch phrase is a phrase or expression recognized by its repeated utterance. Such phrases often originate in popular culture and in the arts.

catch phrases

What's with all these new users that post random meaningless stuff? It's like the most poorly designed spam ever or something...

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Enjoy your $400k loan repayment plan (if you go private). I'm guessing that amounts to about $4,500 each month at 7% APR on a 10 year repayment plan.

 

[Onres]

Enjoy your $400k loan repayment plan (if you go private). I'm guessing that amounts to about $4,500 each month at 7% APR on a 10 year repayment plan.

You're kidding, right? Many of the top private schools have very generous financial aid, which puts their avg indebtedness for graduates well below the national average. That's a huge misconception. Sounds like you haven't interviewed at or researched about the financial aid at top private institutions.

 

[IlDestriero]

Enjoy your $400k loan repayment plan (if you go private). I'm guessing that amounts to about $4,500 each month at 7% APR on a 10 year repayment plan.

I got non need based scholarships FFS. If I can get $$, someone with real documented need can get scholarships. Money may not be as big an issue as you believe. I say apply, see what they offer, and than decide for yourself with actual figures, not fear of non existent high interest loans.
As a caveat though, you may be better off with a higher GPA from a respected state school (Ie. not Southwestern Wyoming State College campus at Nowheresville) than a fancy private school. I would have done poorly at a big state university where competition was lower and distractions were 5x greater. I firmly believe private school was the right choice for my academic success. YMMV.

 

[searun]

You're kidding, right? Many of the top private schools have very generous financial aid, which puts their avg indebtedness for graduates well below the national average. That's a huge misconception. Sounds like you haven't interviewed at or researched about the financial aid at top private institutions.

You are correct. I am a 4th year student at an Ivy League med school ranked in the top 10. I have received a needs based grant each year that has paid my entire tuition expense for med school, more than $180,000 in total. I borrowed money to pay my living expenses and will graduate with about $100,000 in med school debt. I am pretty happy about my decision not to attend my state school where I would have graduated with $200,000 in debt. Private schools with big endowments can be quite helpful, at least in my experience.

 

[Ignatius M.D.]

You're kidding, right? Many of the top private schools have very generous financial aid, which puts their avg indebtedness for graduates well below the national average. That's a huge misconception. Sounds like you haven't interviewed at or researched about the financial aid at top private institutions.

All they needed to do was read my post just a few before theirs.

$0 debt from a top 20 = much better than a few thousand in debt from my local state school. I don't see how this is contentious at all.

 

[Protagonistic]

You have to basically not move a muscle if you go to an Ivy League University and do not end up on top.

 

[Dbate]

You have to basically not move a muscle if you go to an Ivy League University and do not end up on top.

I'm surprised you haven't been banned yet.

 

[Protagonistic]

I'm surprised you haven't been banned yet.

Why would I need to be banned?

 

[bigbad]

Let me quote the article in case you didn't read it.

In other words, if someone had been accepted at an elite college, but chose to go to a more pedestrian one, would his earnings over the long term be the same?

In 1999, economists from Princeton and the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation looked at some of the same data Professor Eide and his colleagues had used, but crunched them in a different way: they compared students at more selective colleges to others of “seemingly comparable ability,” based on their SAT scores and class rank, who had attended less selective schools, either by choice or because a top college rejected them.

The earnings of graduates in the two groups were about the same

This is a never ending argument, though let me point out that Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were both dropouts and Michael Scott never even went to college.

College is for people that don't already know everything.